Thank you Lies.

 

It is preservation of working abilities and character and nerve that make for good pets in my opinion. I look for this type of testing of a German Shepherd genetics in the breeding of the dogs I get for pets. If someone is producing good pets they owe it to the genetics produced from the the selection for working ability early on in the breed, IMO. It is sort of like not acknowledging where the greatness of these dogs as pets came from in the beginnings of the breed.

While a basket case of a dog could not be trained, I know many many dogs that I would not breed who own obedience, agility, tracking titles. A schutzhund title is not a guarantee of perfection either. But schutzhund is not to create a competition dog for competition people. It is a basic breed test to test the breedworthiness of your basic German Shepherd... and that included dogs that were pets and companions. I do the AKC type actitivities and also participate in schutzhund when I can. The AKC type venues do not reveal to you the same important aspects of nerve and character that are to be preserved in a great working breed. I believe the German Shepherd became so popular as a companion because of this "testing", this tradition in understanding the full make up of the breed.

 

Doc, Do you have a website with info and pictures of your dogs? I would like to see it.

 

Quote: If they want me to guarantee a SchH 1 dog I tell them I'm sorry, these dogs (all of them) have not been bred to perform in sports such as SchH.

Quote:I work my dogs in the areas that they were bred for - what ever that is. Obedience, PPD, Service, Conformation, Agility, etc., etc. can all be done by the breeder - they do not have to enter "shows" and get titles to know if their dogs cut the mustard.

I find your statements to be very, very confusing Doc.

On one hand, you say that your dogs, all of them, have not been bred to perform in sports such as Schutzhund. On the other hand, you say that you work your dogs in the areas that they were bred for, whatever those are.

This is very confusing and I was wondering whether you could clarify what you are saying for me, because I don't understand.

Do you mean that none of your dogs have been bred for or are worked in any dog sport, including herding, which is, after all, the origin of the German Shepherd Dog? All Shepherds that are bred properly should be able to herd. And should have the solid temperament to allow them to perform in dog sports, like Schutzhund - it's a staple of the breed going right back to the breed founder(s).

Quote:As has been mentioned before, if I am breeding brace/balance/wheelchair dogs, why would my breeding stock need titles if I work every dog in that kennel on the skills needed in a dog to perform such duties?

If a breeder is producing Service Dogs and his pups go into service homes and are working as Service Dogs, then I would assume that the breeder would have a long list of people with Service Dogs from his breedings to provide a potential buyer proof that this is what the dogs are bred for and what they're excelling at.

At the same time, if someone breeds for police or military, I'm sure they will have a long list of references from departments and organizations that have his dogs and are working his dogs to share with clients.

That's a FAR cry from saying, "Well, I do x activity with them at home, so they're suited for that type of work." Which is a statement that can not be backed up with proof and requires a potential buyer to take the breeder's word.

 

Originally Posted By: DocIs it just a coincident that several of you folks that are on my case all the time own Wildhaus dogs?

I might of been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Hi Doc

 

Originally Posted By: HistorianOn one hand, you say that your dogs, all of them, have not been bred to perform in sports such as Schutzhund. On the other hand, you say that you work your dogs in the areas that they were bred for, whatever those are.

I can see dogs that are not bred for SchH or competition can excel in other areas. When the breeder (or owner) works their dogs why it's assumed that it always happens in their backyard only and without working with trainers?

To make an analogy, do you really care if a police officer who patrols your streets has a martial art point based title or some black belt or whatever? I surely hope he rather possesses brains and skills to survive and enforce the law in a real fight.

 

Originally Posted By: GSD07
To make an analogy, do you really care if a police officer who patrols your streets has a martial art point based title or some black belt or whatever? I surely hope he rather possesses brains and skills to survive and enforce the law in a real fight.

But he went through the police academy, EMT training, has a badge, is affiliated with a department/law enforcement agency, and has some sort of firearm training and certification. He's not just some guy on the neighborhood watch that took classes on crime prevention and self defense.

 

true, but he didn't necessarily have all of that prior to going to Police Academy, or his parents were the police officers, or he had competition titles. He could but it's not the rule. He was a regular stable (let's hope) neighborhood guy who decided to make a difference and living by fighting bad guys.

I just responded to the claim that if the dogs are not bred for SchH and competition that they cannot be up to the real work. It's the owner ('Police Academy') who shapes the dogs (puppies that breeder produces), not the breeder. Breeder's responsibility is to breed stable dogs and produce stable versatile puppies, and whatever road the breeder chooses to reach the goal it's up to him (SchH, PPD, SAR, herding, agility whatever).

What is up to us as buyers is making our own decision regarding our future puppy based on our own personal criteria, and accept the consequences of our own decision.

ETA It's awesome to have breeder's support, but it's not the end of the world if such support doesn't exist, especially if the dog is sound.

 

Oksana - but you're taking into account only part of my post. I said in the same post that someone who is breeding dogs for police, or Service Dogs, etc. would have plenty of reference to show that this is true.

That's different from someone saying, "Well, I train in the back yard with them, and I work them in x venue for fun", IMHO. I can do protection work with my dogs in the back yard, too, and know my dogs, too, but how do I show to a puppy buyer that my dogs really "have it" for the sport?

The problem I have is the idea of having no proof, whatsoever, except what the breeder tells me. At least, with titles, there's some kind of external look at it. And with dogs that are actually WORKING as herding dogs or police dogs, even if they have no titles, there is proof that these dogs are suited for it - otherwise they wouldn't be working.

Doc specifically said that "these dogs, all of them, are not bred for sports". He said sports, SUCH AS Schutzhund. He didn't say they weren't bred for Schutzhund, he said they were not bred for SPORTS at all.

IMHO, regardless of what a GSD is bred for, it should AT LEAST have the drive and ability to herd. That's the basis of the breed, after all.

 

Thanks to ongoing discussions on this forum I'm more and more clear on my own criteria and priorities. I wanted to express my gratitude to all of you who takes time to participate and share your views on the subject!

 

Originally Posted By: GSD07

I just responded to the claim that if the dogs are not bred for SchH and competition that they cannot be up to the real work. It's the owner ('Police Academy') who shapes the dogs (puppies that breeder produces), not the breeder. Breeder's responsibility is to breed stable dogs and produce stable versatile puppies, and whatever road the breeder chooses to reach the goal it's up to him (SchH, PPD, SAR, herding, agility whatever).

This I agree with. No point in doing extensive training and titling on the dog when you are breeding for another purpose.

However when I hear a breeder say "my dogs are sound, fit the standard, and do what the breed was intended for" but then say they aren't active in any clubs, can't describe any form of formal training or competition, can't refer to anyone currently using the dogs for herding work on the farm or law enforcement....I wonder how anyone is to know that the dog is as claimed?

Just last night I was looking at some breeder sites and found one that was advertising a 14 month old puppy as a high quality breeding stud, then a few paragraphs below the breeder claims they have over 30 years of experience with the breed. We all brush our teeth everyday but it doesn't make all of us a dentist....

 

Chris, you are absolutely right, the second part of your post didn't register and I responded too soon.

I do agree with completely here, it makes sense. Sorry

Originally Posted By: Historian
If a breeder is producing Service Dogs and his pups go into service homes and are working as Service Dogs, then I would assume that the breeder would have a long list of people with Service Dogs from his breedings to provide a potential buyer proof that this is what the dogs are bred for and what they're excelling at.

At the same time, if someone breeds for police or military, I'm sure they will have a long list of references from departments and organizations that have his dogs and are working his dogs to share with clients.

 

Originally Posted By: Liesje We all brush our teeth everyday but it doesn't make all of us a dentist....

It's hard to argue with that LOL
It looks like there is a gray area out there where good breeders mix with not so good (I'm not talking about extremes here on both sides, responsible vs puppy mills).

 

May I say something about titles. I’m not entirely certain that we should be talking about titles but rather achievements. I think we tend to conflict the two. Confirmation titles would lead you to believe that the parents of the puppies meet the breed standards. However, the performance titles/certificates such as schutzhund, therapy, assistance, agility, and service are a pretty good indicator of brains, and temperament. Traits that you would hope would be passed on to the puppies.

Something to consider.

 

Hello Deejays_Owner

 

I'm sorry you are confused.
I am afraid I can not explain things in terms you will understand. That's my fault, not yours.

I encourage the development of the inborn traits of my German shepherds. Can they protect, yes - do I "train" them to attack a sleeve - no. Can they herd - that's a hard call because I do not pay a great deal of attention to that. Maybe a better question is - can they be "trained" to herd - to which I would say yes. Do they conform to the Standard - no (too tall). Do they have obedience potential - yes. I think you get the idea.

 

Quote:However when I hear a breeder say "my dogs are sound, fit the standard, and do what the breed was intended for" but then say they aren't active in any clubs, can't describe any form of formal training or competition, can't refer to anyone currently using the dogs for herding work on the farm or law enforcement....I wonder how anyone is to know that the dog is as claimed?

Yes, that is exactly the point I've been trying to make.

Quote:I'm sorry you are confused.
I am afraid I can not explain things in terms you will understand.

Way to be condescending. Thanks so much.

Quote:I encourage the development of the inborn traits of my German shepherds.

How?

Quote:Can they protect, yes - do I "train" them to attack a sleeve - no.

How do you know they can protect? Have you ever done any protection work with any of your dogs? Have any of them ever been taken by a police agency? Have any of them done any sport that involve protection?

Quote:Can they herd - that's a hard call because I do not pay a great deal of attention to that. Maybe a better question is - can they be "trained" to herd - to which I would say yes.

Dogs need to have the instinct to herd before they can be trained to do the behaviors (direct the sheep where wanted) to herd, so it's something they either have or don't have. As GSDs, they should have it. They are herding dogs, after all.

Quoteo they have obedience potential - yes.

Any dog has "obedience potential". Maybe not competitive to CDX level, but I have yet to meet a dog that couldn't be taught to sit, down, and walk on a leash.

 

Sorry, but I am seeing a whole lot of "I am very experienced and my dogs are this-this-that" without anything that would back up these claims. I think any breeder should be able to make only those claims he or she are able to back up by hard facts - like proof what work their dogs are doing, regardless of whether titled or not.

Maybe the folks on here that have such strong opinions all have Wildhaus dogs because Wildhaus is one of the very few breeders who actually put their money where their mouth is, and don't just go on about "the things they do". They actually DO them and present proof. Heck, they have everything right on their website, from OFFA results to Zuchtwert, to titles, to full pedigrees.

And for the record, I don't have a Wildhaus dog. Both of mine are rescues.

 

I am happy you found a breeder that fulfills your criteria. If you look long enough, you find they are not perfect either. I am not hear to discuss Chris and Tim from Wildhaus or to judge if they are "one of the very few breeders who actually put their money where their mouth is"- nobody is perfect.

I don't have to prove anything to you Chris - are you planning on buying one of my dogs? My paying customers are very very happy with the dogs they get from me. And often return for more. Some even wait years to get a dog. That's all the proof I need.

I'm sure my dogs could never ever meet your criteria or come close to what you think/expect in a German shepherd.

 

Quote:I am happy you found a breeder that fulfills your criteria.

I would appreciate it very much if you could take the time to read my posts before responding to them. I just stated very clearly that both of my dogs are rescues and that I do not own a Wildhaus dog. However, Wildhaus does stand out among breeders because of their honesty about their dogs and their breeding program.

Quote:
I don't have to prove anything to you Chris - are you planning on buying one of my dogs? My paying customers are very very happy with the dogs they get from me. And often return for more. Some even wait years to get a dog. That's all the proof I need.

I am not asking you to prove anything to me, Doc. However, I would very much like to remind you that it was you who chimed in on this thread, making claims about your experience and your breeding program, which were vague and confusing. I asked you to clarify what you meant by some of your statements. Others have asked you questions as well. As far as I can see, you have failed to answer them all.

When you make a claim, don't be surprised (or offended!) when people ask you to substantiate it. Claims that are not backed up by proof are as useless as passing on hearsay. "Take my word for it" is not a valid argument. That's like me writing an article on history without giving sources and assuring my readers, "Oh, but I know what I'm talking about because I've been writing about this subject for x number of years."

And, sorry, but the statement that "my paying customers are very happy with the dogs they get from me" also holds no water for me. There are tens of thousands of people with dogs from puppy mills and backyard breeders who are also "very very happy" with their dogs AND "return for more". Doesn't mean that their "breeders" produce quality dogs or do anything to improve or better the breed.

 

Got it. Anything else? "A man is only as good as his word." I'm not sure you can collectively call someone "honest" just because they have information on their web-site. But maybe you can.

There is nothing wrong with my memory so you do not have to remind me of anything. Someone asked about a kennel's pricing - then the thread went to price maybe associated with training and titles. the the entire discussion centered around if you title or not. I just disagree that titles are mandatory in order to have good dogs.

I do not post my web-site or pictures of my dogs - and in here that makes me a shady character. That's fine.

And as long as I am a member here, I enjoy the freedom to post anything I darn please and make any comments about my dogs.

And you do not have to lecture me about you writing history and citing your sources. The name "Doc" was given to me many years ago based on my formal academic achievements which included and still includes conducting and publishing research in several fields of study.

 

Since this topic has strayed far from the original topic, it is time to close it up and move on.

 

*** Post Removed by Admin***

 

**Link Removed by Admin**

 

*** Removed by Admin***