Ok, got to ask, How do you determin the price of a puppy? How can some one price a 4 week old pup at say $3000.00 or $2500.00 or $1000.00 and even $5000.00+ ?
puppy pricing
heritige
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I'm curious how training comes into play. I've only done it with one dog so far b/c of age (other dogs too young, waiting for another test around here). The way ours was setup, no training came into play since we were not allowed to speak, touch, lead, or command the dog in any way, we just had to hold the end of a 6' lead and watch the instructor.
It's too bad testers are so inconsistent and don't take breed into account. Probably not unlike the inconsistencies with CGC testing. I like the CGC even less because training *does* get to come into play so much more. I've had to pass dogs I knew really weren't worthy, but the owner crammed like mad and got the dog to perform on that day.
It's too bad testers are so inconsistent and don't take breed into account. Probably not unlike the inconsistencies with CGC testing. I like the CGC even less because training *does* get to come into play so much more. I've had to pass dogs I knew really weren't worthy, but the owner crammed like mad and got the dog to perform on that day.
Training comes into account in several parts .... I could run through each part of the TT and show how even though you are not to touch, or talk to your dog, the training the dog has PLAYS a part in its reactions. The testers have no reliable way to tell what is good, or poor training by its reactions. They are guessing .... speculating. And who ever is in charge makes the final descision.
The final test is what bugs me the most. The dog is held by the handler on a 6' leash as a guy in a big trench coat comes out shaking a bag of cans, walking clumsily(drunk), and yelling. Then he has a horse whip(4') that he swings at the dog and hits the ground a specified number of times comeing at the dog. Then he runs behind a tree or barier to hide.
For the dog to pass, it must either
a)do nothing
b)alert, then back down.
If the dog doesnt back down almost immediately (remember the handler isnt allowed to say 'alls okay boy' ) the dog is failed.
What about a dog that is in training program where he has to 'follow' that guy around the barrier ... like a blind, in schutzhund. Or a police dog, who knows that there REALLY are bad guys. And that guy was acting like one.
By the time a dog is an adult, you cant call the things that test covers 'pure temperment' It is also training ....
They always need Apprentice testers, try it sometime. The bias the testers bring amazed me. And from people I admire and look up to.
It really is well intentioned. A working test I think is a better, not perfect, but better show. Especially if you can see it, either in person or by video. Not just schuzhund, but also OB, Tracking, Therepy etc. I think people should always be able to see the dogs in action.
The final test is what bugs me the most. The dog is held by the handler on a 6' leash as a guy in a big trench coat comes out shaking a bag of cans, walking clumsily(drunk), and yelling. Then he has a horse whip(4') that he swings at the dog and hits the ground a specified number of times comeing at the dog. Then he runs behind a tree or barier to hide.
For the dog to pass, it must either
a)do nothing
b)alert, then back down.
If the dog doesnt back down almost immediately (remember the handler isnt allowed to say 'alls okay boy' ) the dog is failed.
What about a dog that is in training program where he has to 'follow' that guy around the barrier ... like a blind, in schutzhund. Or a police dog, who knows that there REALLY are bad guys. And that guy was acting like one.
By the time a dog is an adult, you cant call the things that test covers 'pure temperment' It is also training ....
They always need Apprentice testers, try it sometime. The bias the testers bring amazed me. And from people I admire and look up to.
It really is well intentioned. A working test I think is a better, not perfect, but better show. Especially if you can see it, either in person or by video. Not just schuzhund, but also OB, Tracking, Therepy etc. I think people should always be able to see the dogs in action.
hehe ... I dont remember the specifics of what happened if the dog hid ... but that was another extreme 'according to them' and warrented 'discussion/debate' as to whether the passed or not. ....
I really remember my brain feeling like mush from the pure fustration of the entire system.
I really remember my brain feeling like mush from the pure fustration of the entire system.
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I want dogs exemplary with people & wise enough to be tolerant of small bratty dogs & beasty children. Discerning is terrific. Excessively suspicious is not. Pushy, opinionated, brainy, complex thinkers are great. Good bite inhibition is essential. I expect my dogs to acquiesce readily to the notion that they're not to bite people. I want confident, self assured, strong minded dogs that don't constantly perceive threats from unknown people & animals. I want a dog that engages his mind before his teeth. I want dogs that are generous in spirit, eager to assist & benevolent towards other dogs & people. I like to see kindness in my dogs. And of course I want athleticism, robust health & longevity.
Declining to participate isn't condemning. I'm frankly skeptical of those who automatically condemn breeders that don't title their dogs & I'm leery of the assertions which assume untitled dogs are neither trained nor worked. I'm wary of claims that those who don't title their dogs lack the requisite knowledge & experience to make good breeding decisions. This rush to judgment is biased & erroneous. That's no better than those who mindlessly claim WL are unsuited to family life & that SchH training makes dogs vicious & bloodthirsty.
I will add some things based not on my expertise on dogs (which I have none!), but based on my expertise on marketing and pricing (which I have a little...).
As Chris wrote and i type literally "...and obviously designed for the sole purpose of marketing...." YES, this is THE point.
Some of you have write about how you determine the price for a litter (stud fees, health costs, lab tests, etc).
But this breeders KNOW they dont have this costs, what they do is try to create the impression, on uneducated buyers, that THERE ARE REAL differences between each price bracket .
And by selling this perception and when the customer sees more price brackets, the customer doesnt want to settle for less.
Is like a car, you want the rooftop, the powerwindows, the GPS... you dont want the plain one!
As Tri Star explained, he has price brackets but with very closer ranges between each other. But these breeders have more gap in their brackets because they sell the notion that the dogs value is worth it...and that is the only thing that matters to the seller.
Its OVERPRICING, pure and simple...
Of course the breeder doesnt sell at this overpriced prices !, very few pups and dogs will sell at the original price. But then the customer then can claim he got a lesser price ! The customer can brag to friends...hey I bought a four thousand dollar dog for only twenty five hundred !. And the customer feels good....)
And they gear toward the masses, uneducated... and either looking for status or for a "bargain".
99% of dogs sold like this will be overpriced. For a $7,500 dog, the pup must speak chinese & spit gold...)
Luis
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There are two dogs on this board, from the same kennel, different parents. They are about a month apart in age. Both went to "pet" homes as far as I know. The price difference was $1000. Oh, the $3000 dog had a tattoo. Pretty expensive ink.
The more expensive pup was going to another state( I assume the shipping was added on top of the 3 grand), the potential buyer put down a $1300 deposit. After doing some research the potential buyer tried to get out of the sale a month before the pup was ready to leave the kennel and was refused a refund so the buyer was basically stuck with the sale.
The more expensive pup was going to another state( I assume the shipping was added on top of the 3 grand), the potential buyer put down a $1300 deposit. After doing some research the potential buyer tried to get out of the sale a month before the pup was ready to leave the kennel and was refused a refund so the buyer was basically stuck with the sale.
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shipping isn't that expensive if your not shipping from overseas.
I think alot boils down to Joe Public, (and/or uneducated) "some" feel the more you pay the better the dog which is obviously not the case.
I can't justify paying 7500$ for an 8 week old puppy unless as Luis, says, the dog speaks a foreign language and spits gold.
I think alot boils down to Joe Public, (and/or uneducated) "some" feel the more you pay the better the dog which is obviously not the case.
I can't justify paying 7500$ for an 8 week old puppy unless as Luis, says, the dog speaks a foreign language and spits gold.
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Yeah that is wrong, that is opposite of how we were scored. Where I did the test, the dog could NOT back down or it failed. My dog got the lowest passing score because when she was threatened (with a stick), she pricked her ears and stepped forward. She passed because she did not turn away or back down, but she got a very low score because she is a GSD and did not bark or lunge forward. All of the other dogs being tested (all SchH dogs) turned on their aggression and easily passed.
I'd rather spend my time, money, and efforts training my dogs then entering some "event" to have some "judge" tell me how good/bad my dog performed on that given day. Titles DO NOT equate to better dogs - that is hogwash.
Would you rather buy a pup from a breeder that has every title under the sun on their dogs or from a breeder that has - in essences - created a strain of dog over the years based on temperament, health, and personal knowledge of each dog in the bloodline albeit, untitled?
To say that breeders who choose not to title their dogs, for what ever reason, is incapable of breeding to better the dog borders on insanity. I guess some people think the only reason to breed German shepherds is to create dogs that can win titles.
Would you rather buy a pup from a breeder that has every title under the sun on their dogs or from a breeder that has - in essences - created a strain of dog over the years based on temperament, health, and personal knowledge of each dog in the bloodline albeit, untitled?
To say that breeders who choose not to title their dogs, for what ever reason, is incapable of breeding to better the dog borders on insanity. I guess some people think the only reason to breed German shepherds is to create dogs that can win titles.
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That is not true. I've done 3 TTs on 3 different dogs, and watch 20 or so more, and backing down would have caused a fail, not failure to back down.
The TT is supposed to be graded somewhat breed specific. So what might be appropriate for a non-working breed is different than a working breed, and it is supposed to be graded as such. A Golden backing down would be fine. A GSD doing the same thing is not. Of course, that assumes TT evaluators have been properly taught how to read dogs and understand the differences in temperament between the breeds and take them into account when grading the test. I've no doubt there is some failure and inconsistency in that area, as there is with judging in all sports sometimes.
I guess the prudent thing to do is for people to research who is giving the test before signing up, and get a feel for that person's experience with dogs. I could see someone with a pet trainer background expecting every dog to back down, regardless of breed. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. But that is not correct within the spirit or actual written rules of the test. So the person taking their dog to be tested should be aware of what is correct for their breed, and seek out an evaluator who also has some awareness in that area.
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A German Shepherd? Yes, he can do this and pass just fine. He doesn't have to get all aggressive to pass, but moving backward, hiding behind the handler, showing fear or anxiety through avoidance....those are failures, for a GSD.
I expected my dog to stand there and perk up, and that's exactly what she did and passed. She did not show any signs of avoidance or trying to hide behind me. Afterward, the tester told me that the low score was fine because he read the paper on my dog, where we had to describe the dog. He saw that she has done competition in many venues, no protection work, and has lots of training for therapy dog work so she has been routinely trained not to alert to people doing odd things. He said she performed exactly as he would have expected and wanted her to, knowing she is a GSD and should not back down, but knowing she has had so much training *not* to react to people doing weird things in front of her. Our tester is a SchH and police K9 trainer, but also has done extensive therapy dog work and was one of the first TDI evaluators. He knows the breed and every angle of training. He understood how training effects temperament, and what to watch for with each dog (what they were doing or not doing).
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Again, depends on the breed and what is appropriate for the breed. It specifies that in the written ATTS rules.
For a working breed like the GSD that is supposed to possess courage and protective instincts, acceptable responses would be to step forward on alert and watch the stranger, making it clear that the dog is ready should something go a'foul, showing neither aggression nor avoidance. Or react with a defensive display to make the threat go away. Either is fine.
Also in the rules, evaluators are supposed to take not only breed but also training into account. The test entry form asks for details about what previous training the dog has and any titles it holds. So for a dog who has had protection training, an aggressive reaction is going to be more expected.
Sounds like a great tester! I would hope Benny would respond like your dog because I have also been training him not to react to wheel chairs, walkers , canes. I guess the test is really just as good as the tester
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Exactly!
We did our TTs under the same evaluator as Lies.
The dog showing any avoidance at any time during the test, fail.
The dog showing any aggression toward anyone at any time during the test *except* that final exercise, fail.
The dog not showing some form of alert "don't you come any closer!" to the threatening stranger on the final test, fail.
Totally correct for a GSD or other working breed.
When we did the test most of the dogs were working breeds, but there were also some non working breeds tested, and the expectations for them were very different, as they should be.
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One thing I like about titles on a dog, is that even though the system is not perfect, at least the dogs have been evaluated by an outside party, giving a more objective view on the abilities, strenghts and weaknesses of the dog. I think it is completely normal, and even expected to some degree, to be kennel blind, and I don't fault breeders who are biased towards their own lines - aren't we all biased towards our own dogs?
So I like it when a breeder has enough confidence in what they are breeding to take it out into the real world and have their dogs evaluated and judged by a stranger, in a strange and new environment - it will tell you so much more about the dog. Of course a lot of breeders try very hard to avoid kennel blindness, and try to be as honest and open about their dogs as possible, but unless that breeder has had years of experience actually training and putting titles on a dog, how can they evaluate what they have?
How many people just on this board alone have purchased dogs from breeders (who do not work or title their dogs) with the promise that they are of good "bloodlines" and therefore will not have any difficulty doing Schutzhund, Therapy work, or SAR, or a number of other activities be sorely disappointed when their dogs did not prove suitable? How do the breeders know that their dogs WOULD do well, if they never gone out there and tested their dogs against other dogs? But the dogs come from "good bloodlines" - it seems to me that EVERY GSD comes from "good bloodlines". Go back far enough, and there are ancestors that came from Germany with SchH titles - doesn't mean much four, five generations down the line.
So I like it when a breeder has enough confidence in what they are breeding to take it out into the real world and have their dogs evaluated and judged by a stranger, in a strange and new environment - it will tell you so much more about the dog. Of course a lot of breeders try very hard to avoid kennel blindness, and try to be as honest and open about their dogs as possible, but unless that breeder has had years of experience actually training and putting titles on a dog, how can they evaluate what they have?
How many people just on this board alone have purchased dogs from breeders (who do not work or title their dogs) with the promise that they are of good "bloodlines" and therefore will not have any difficulty doing Schutzhund, Therapy work, or SAR, or a number of other activities be sorely disappointed when their dogs did not prove suitable? How do the breeders know that their dogs WOULD do well, if they never gone out there and tested their dogs against other dogs? But the dogs come from "good bloodlines" - it seems to me that EVERY GSD comes from "good bloodlines". Go back far enough, and there are ancestors that came from Germany with SchH titles - doesn't mean much four, five generations down the line.
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Just a question... (referencing Doc) how would one KNOW that a breeder has "created a strain of dog over ther years based on temperment,health, and personal knowledge of each dog in the bloodline albeit, untitled?" I am not doubting or questioning your lines but wondering how a potential puppy buyer would know this about a breeder without just taking their word for it?
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