Originally Posted By: smerry

For the dog to pass, it must either
a)do nothing
b)alert, then back down.

If the dog doesnt back down almost immediately (remember the handler isnt allowed to say 'alls okay boy' ) the dog is failed.

That is not true. I've done 3 TTs on 3 different dogs, and watch 20 or so more, and backing down would have caused a fail, not failure to back down.

The TT is supposed to be graded somewhat breed specific. So what might be appropriate for a non-working breed is different than a working breed, and it is supposed to be graded as such. A Golden backing down would be fine. A GSD doing the same thing is not. Of course, that assumes TT evaluators have been properly taught how to read dogs and understand the differences in temperament between the breeds and take them into account when grading the test. I've no doubt there is some failure and inconsistency in that area, as there is with judging in all sports sometimes.

I guess the prudent thing to do is for people to research who is giving the test before signing up, and get a feel for that person's experience with dogs. I could see someone with a pet trainer background expecting every dog to back down, regardless of breed. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. But that is not correct within the spirit or actual written rules of the test. So the person taking their dog to be tested should be aware of what is correct for their breed, and seek out an evaluator who also has some awareness in that area.

 

Originally Posted By: Debbieg
So to pass the dog is supposed to bark and lunge without the handler permission?

A German Shepherd? Yes, he can do this and pass just fine. He doesn't have to get all aggressive to pass, but moving backward, hiding behind the handler, showing fear or anxiety through avoidance....those are failures, for a GSD.

I expected my dog to stand there and perk up, and that's exactly what she did and passed. She did not show any signs of avoidance or trying to hide behind me. Afterward, the tester told me that the low score was fine because he read the paper on my dog, where we had to describe the dog. He saw that she has done competition in many venues, no protection work, and has lots of training for therapy dog work so she has been routinely trained not to alert to people doing odd things. He said she performed exactly as he would have expected and wanted her to, knowing she is a GSD and should not back down, but knowing she has had so much training *not* to react to people doing weird things in front of her. Our tester is a SchH and police K9 trainer, but also has done extensive therapy dog work and was one of the first TDI evaluators. He knows the breed and every angle of training. He understood how training effects temperament, and what to watch for with each dog (what they were doing or not doing).

 

Originally Posted By: Debbieg


So to pass the dog is supposed to bark and lunge without the handler permission?

Again, depends on the breed and what is appropriate for the breed. It specifies that in the written ATTS rules.

For a working breed like the GSD that is supposed to possess courage and protective instincts, acceptable responses would be to step forward on alert and watch the stranger, making it clear that the dog is ready should something go a'foul, showing neither aggression nor avoidance. Or react with a defensive display to make the threat go away. Either is fine.

Also in the rules, evaluators are supposed to take not only breed but also training into account. The test entry form asks for details about what previous training the dog has and any titles it holds. So for a dog who has had protection training, an aggressive reaction is going to be more expected.

 

Originally Posted By: Liesje

A German Shepherd? Yes, he can do this and pass just fine. He doesn't have to get all aggressive to pass, but moving backward, hiding behind the handler, showing fear or anxiety through avoidance....those are failures, for a GSD.

I expected my dog to stand there and perk up, and that's exactly what she did and passed. She did not show any signs of avoidance or trying to hide behind me. Afterward, the tester told me that the low score was fine because he read the paper on my dog, where we had to describe the dog. He saw that she has done competition in many venues, no protection work, and has lots of training for therapy dog work so she has been routinely trained not to alert to people doing odd things. He said she performed exactly as he would have expected and wanted her to, knowing she is a GSD and should not back down, but knowing she has had so much training *not* to react to people doing weird things in front of her. Our tester is a SchH and police K9 trainer, but also has done extensive therapy dog work and was one of the first TDI evaluators. He knows the breed and every angle of training. He understood how training effects temperament, and what to
watch for with each dog (what they were doing or not doing).

Sounds like a great tester! I would hope Benny would respond like your dog because I have also been training him not to react to wheel chairs, walkers , canes. I guess the test is really just as good as the tester

 

Originally Posted By: Debbieg I guess the test is really just as good as the tester

Exactly!

We did our TTs under the same evaluator as Lies.
The dog showing any avoidance at any time during the test, fail.
The dog showing any aggression toward anyone at any time during the test *except* that final exercise, fail.
The dog not showing some form of alert "don't you come any closer!" to the threatening stranger on the final test, fail.
Totally correct for a GSD or other working breed.

When we did the test most of the dogs were working breeds, but there were also some non working breeds tested, and the expectations for them were very different, as they should be.

 

Hey, can we take the discussion on the TT elsewhere? It is entirely off topic and has nothing what so ever to do with the OP's question.

Thank you,

Admin
*****

 

One thing I like about titles on a dog, is that even though the system is not perfect, at least the dogs have been evaluated by an outside party, giving a more objective view on the abilities, strenghts and weaknesses of the dog. I think it is completely normal, and even expected to some degree, to be kennel blind, and I don't fault breeders who are biased towards their own lines - aren't we all biased towards our own dogs?

So I like it when a breeder has enough confidence in what they are breeding to take it out into the real world and have their dogs evaluated and judged by a stranger, in a strange and new environment - it will tell you so much more about the dog. Of course a lot of breeders try very hard to avoid kennel blindness, and try to be as honest and open about their dogs as possible, but unless that breeder has had years of experience actually training and putting titles on a dog, how can they evaluate what they have?

How many people just on this board alone have purchased dogs from breeders (who do not work or title their dogs) with the promise that they are of good "bloodlines" and therefore will not have any difficulty doing Schutzhund, Therapy work, or SAR, or a number of other activities be sorely disappointed when their dogs did not prove suitable? How do the breeders know that their dogs WOULD do well, if they never gone out there and tested their dogs against other dogs? But the dogs come from "good bloodlines" - it seems to me that EVERY GSD comes from "good bloodlines". Go back far enough, and there are ancestors that came from Germany with SchH titles - doesn't mean much four, five generations down the line.

 

Well put Doc!

Originally Posted By: DocI'd rather spend my time, money, and efforts training my dogs then entering some "event" to have some "judge" tell me how good/bad my dog performed on that given day. Titles DO NOT equate to better dogs - that is hogwash.

Would you rather buy a pup from a breeder that has every title under the sun on their dogs or from a breeder that has - in essences - created a strain of dog over the years based on temperament, health, and personal knowledge of each dog in the bloodline albeit, untitled?

To say that breeders who choose not to title their dogs, for what ever reason, is incapable of breeding to better the dog borders on insanity. I guess some people think the only reason to breed German shepherds is to create dogs that can win titles.

 

Just a question... (referencing Doc) how would one KNOW that a breeder has "created a strain of dog over ther years based on temperment,health, and personal knowledge of each dog in the bloodline albeit, untitled?" I am not doubting or questioning your lines but wondering how a potential puppy buyer would know this about a breeder without just taking their word for it?

 

Originally Posted By: doggiedadhow much do the children cost?

I will let you know

Since my friend has gotten pregnant, I've had her e-mail me costs associated with being pregnant up until the first year of a child's life. I've been putting it in a spreadsheet thus far to help another friend of mine in her Sex Education classes (she's the teacher - lol.)

 

Originally Posted By: SouthernThistle

Originally Posted By: doggiedadhow much do the children cost?

I will let you know

Since my friend has gotten pregnant, I've had her e-mail me costs associated with being pregnant up until the first year of a child's life. I've been putting it in a spreadsheet thus far to help another friend of mine in her Sex Education classes (she's the teacher - lol.)

Uhm make sure you do the uninsured, un government assisted cost LOL that will make those kids think LOL

 

Quote:Would you rather buy a pup from a breeder that has every title under the sun on their dogs or from a breeder that has - in essences - created a strain of dog over the years based on temperament, health, and personal knowledge of each dog in the bloodline albeit, untitled?

I don't think it's so much about the EARNING of titles as it is about the WORKING of the dogs and ensuring they meet the breed standard in terms of temperament, abilities, and so on.

How does the breeder who does not title prove that their dogs meet the breed standard, outside of competing in performance events such as Schutzhund, obedience, ring sport, etc.? Now, if the breeder is producing dogs for police or military work, and those dogs excel in that work and he has references showing that this is where his pups go, that is one thing.

But if he does not, and he does not compete with his dogs, how can the breeder show that he is breeding for temperament and ability, structural soundness, and to the breed standard? Are we supposed to take his word for it?

Titles do not equal better dogs, correct - we've all seen dogs pushed through SchHIII (and "earning" SchHIII) who are not suitable for it. However, not titling at all is its own can of worms. If you don't train and compete in anything, how do you judge your dog's abilities?

The bigger problem is that those breeders who don't work and title their own breeding stock are often the breeders who buy a titled stud, then breed him to their 3 untitled females, and sell the pups for big money because the father is "from Champion lines, xxx titles, etc." all while putting no effort into working and training their dogs or even doing basic things such as OFA/PennHip on their breeding females.

 

One thing that bugs me A LOT on breeders' websites are sentences such as -

"From great bloodlines"
"Many SchHII / SchHIII dogs in the pedigree"
"Lines have a great history of OFA"

I am sure that these sound great to someone who knows absolutely nothing about German Shepherds, but to me, those are vague at best and misleading (on purpose) at worst.

"What does great history of OFA certifications" even mean? Does it mean the great-grandparents of the dogs being bred have had their x-rays sent to OFFA for evaluation? That the breeding stock has been rated by OFFA? It could really mean anything. Even a dog with Fair hips has an OFFA rating, does it not?

I don't know. When I see these things on breeders websites, it always makes me think that they are intentionally trying to mislead people into believing their dogs are something other than they are or that they are getting one thing when they really are not.

 

Originally Posted By: gsdlove212

how much do the children cost?

Mine cost me my sanity!

 

It's not about confidence. It's about fairness. Paid off judges, juiced dogs, kennel blindness on a judges part, etc. has tainted the fairness of trials. Too much politics and not enough knowlegdable folks are "judging" through their lenses. It has absolutely nothing to do with confidence. So take that point to someone else.

I don't have any control what other breeders are telling their buyers. I know my dogs, much much better than most breeders. I can point out the areas that needed improvement from one generation to the next and show how we tried to over come our short comings. Particularly in health, temperament, and lastly structure. Why we chose a particular female to keep out of a litter, why we matched a male to a dam, etc. Titles do not speak to this. Titles indicate that someone trained their dog well.

I approach the worthiness of a German shepherd from a breeding standpoint, not a title one. And you are absolutely wrong when you state that genetics from four or five generations back doesn't mean much. It means everything if you breed for many generations. Obvious most breeders do not have a well developed breeding plan if they dismiss the genetic importance of past dogs in the bloodline.

 

Ask the right questions and listen. Question why they bred a particular dog. Ask them to explain their breeding plan. What process do they go through in selecting sires and damns. Ask them what they think is important in a German shepherd and how are they breeding for that. Ask about health issues, all the big ones that you see in German shepherds, and what is the breeder doing to avoid that. Ask about the temperament of the sire and dam, the grandsir and granddam, great grands, etc. Most breeders do have generation after generation personal knowledge of the dogs in a pedigree - some do. Do your homework, know what you are looking for, know what you plan to do with your dog, understand the importance of health and temperament, then find what you are looking for. If all a breeder can do is spout off a bunch of titles about their dogs and some of the titles of the dogs in a pedigree, then I'm not sure that breeder really has any kind of breeding plan.

 

Originally Posted By: DocIt's not about confidence. It's about fairness. Paid off judges, juiced dogs, kennel blindness on a judges part, etc. has tainted the fairness of trials. Too much politics and not enough knowlegdable folks are "judging" through their lenses. It has absolutely nothing to do with confidence. So take that point to someone else.

Well, my post was not directed in anyone in particular - it was an addendum to the ongoing board-wide debate of titles vs. no titles.
There are plenty of breeders who feel as you do and are cynical and bitter about the whole titling thing, but there are still many others who feel there is merit in the process, and go that route. I was not attacking, and not sure why you thought that I was? but I was simply commenting, stating an opinion, as you always say in your own defense.

Hate to burst your bubble Doc, but the whole board does not revolve around your posts.

 

Originally Posted By: DocAsk the right questions and listen. Question why they bred a particular dog. Ask them to explain their breeding plan. What process do they go through in selecting sires and damns. Ask them what they think is important in a German shepherd and how are they breeding for that. Ask about health issues, all the big ones that you see in German shepherds, and what is the breeder doing to avoid that. Ask about the temperament of the sire and dam, the grandsir and granddam, great grands, etc. Most breeders do have generation after generation personal knowledge of the dogs in a pedigree - some do. Do your homework, know what you are looking for, know what you plan to do with your dog, understand the importance of health and temperament, then find what you are looking for. If all a breeder can do is spout off a bunch of titles about their dogs and some of the titles of the dogs in a pedigree, then I'm not sure that breeder really has any kind of breeding plan.

So in your opinion, it should go off of the breeders' word. There is still no way for them to back up their claims so to speak. Sure titles can be bought, dogs that shouldn't still manage to earn their titles...ok. BUT, I am sure that if I am interested in a breeder who does title their dog, I can go and watch them at a trial...I can see how they perform as compared to the other dogs there. I can ask other competitors in the sport or whatever venue it may be. I can still research the lines and discuss these things with the breeders. I can still meet the dogs and progeny that the breeder has produced.

Titles do not mean that the dog is better...it jsut means that it is proven. And for me personally, I would rather have a dog who is proven to have the traits that I desire than one who I have been told will. Actions speak louder than words...and in MOST cases I think actions mean more too. There are always exceptions to the rule....on both sides. This is totally my opinion, and in no way is it meant to disreguard yours.

 

I never said it did castlemaid. But most people in a certain camp on this forum sure make it a point to slam my post - you included.

 

Thank you Alison. As you may can tell, I am obviously from a different era than most in here. Sales and "deals" were/are sealed with a hand-shake and a person's word - no need for contracts. I stand behind by products/dogs 100% - if you are unhappy for ANY reason, I'll take my dog/pup back. It's how I do business. I work with my dogs everyday. I know what is good and what needs work. I know my dogs, their parents, grands, greatgrands, etc.

I do not put a lot of faith in Titles for various reason. If you don't trust me, don't buy my dog. But if you do buy my dog, you get me with it for life - for better or worse. Unfortunately, the breeding business has changed, some to the good, a lot to the bad. And old school breeders pass on or give up because they are unable to compete with slick marketing and advertisement. Nor do they utilize current technology to promote their dogs.

I may be a relic, and probably not understood by many who are relatively new in this field. There are very few of us around and less seen in here. Most have aged out. And with that, years of dedication, knowledge, trial and error have been lost.

 

To me titles just tell me what level of training I can expect to see when I go to look at the sire and/or dam. I don't think I'd ever buy a dog without observing one or both. I did not pick my current dog based on the titles of the parents, but based on the amount of time spent with them, observing them train, work, and just "be a dog" interacting with people and kids. I liked that the dam was very sound and social, but not overly social (ie, she comes up to me to kiss me, but she knows who her owner is). I also saught the opinion of other breeders who knew the lines, and have the opinions of the trainers and helpers who have worked the dog. In fact the dog is often worked at a much higher level than the titles the dog has. To be honest when it comes to picking *my* dog I will pick based on *my* criteria and my gut feelings after spending time with the dog and not base my decision either on a title or on what one breeder says about the dog. The dog is to be my companion and live in the house with me and travel with me so I'm not just picking based on the best sport dog, or the best looking dog, or the best hip scores, but the dog that I can live with.

 

Good for you Lies. A very sound process you go through. I know you have the dog(s) that you were looking for.

 

Doc, the smilies were to lighten the atmosphere up, because I'm tired of you taking every comment anyone makes as a personal attack. I made a comment as to what titles mean to me, and you respond as if I was specifically criticizing your views and opinions.

I am such an insignificant player in the dog world, my thoughts and opinions should not really matter to people who have the history that you have, I just like to read my own thoughts and words on screen.

 

Perhaps I should of chosen my word more careful and not directed them to anyone in specific. I just get very tired reading that the ONLY way to know your dogs is to Title them. I think some view a Title as the golden egg and those breeders/owners that do not participate in such activities do not really know their dogs. I say mule fritters to that notion. I know my dogs if they are titled or not - some breeders may not. I think there is fundamental difference in beliefs and values when it comes to "knowing" your dogs.

IMO, all the Titles in the world does not mean someone knows their dogs. Too many folks that own, train, title and claim that they have pushed their dogs to their limit and know how they will respond are often surprised by the actions or reactions of their dogs.

 

Here's a question, then, Doc - even if YOU as a breeder KNOW your dogs, how exactly do potential puppy buyers KNOW that you know your dogs - are they supposed to take your word for it, or do you offer some kind of third-person perspective / evaluation / proof thereof?

I don't think anyone is saying that breeders who don't work/title don't know their dogs. I'm sure plenty do. But how do they prove to their prospective buyers that they do?