I have heard from more than one person that their chiropractor said the focused heeling is the worst part of IPO for their neck.

 

I tend to agree it is hard on a GSD...Mals have it perfected and their structure can handle it with ease.
My male is tall, long in body and for him to keep that motion going for long is hard on him, so I don't demand it of him, as long as he is with me he won't get a correction if he looks away for a second or two.
If the judge wants to take points for it, so be it.

 

I tend to agree it is hard on a GSD...Mals have it perfected and their structure can handle it with ease.
My male is tall, long in body and for him to keep that motion going for long is hard on him, so I don't demand it of him, as long as he is with me he won't get a correction if he looks away for a second or two.
If the judge wants to take points for it, so be it.

Its good that you have that attitude-dogs lives are just not long enough:wub:

 

My male had crap heeling for 6 years and had more chiropractor issues so far than my 2 year old with excellent focused heeling. My chiropractor never said that she has any more medical concerns because of her heeling style. She's well exercised and well muscled in general.

 

Is the issues because the dogs head is up and stretched back?

What about dogs that have a prancy gait but their heads are turned more side ways and slightly tilted up?

I've had a chiropractor tell me that tracking your dog for long periods of time are bad for the dogs neck too? So who knows!

 

I think so, Leesa. It's the hyper extension. Same thing my chiro tells me about looking down on a computer all day or when I"m in the field and my head is tilted up most of the day. Extension over an extended period of time.

Why would tracking be bad? I don't get that one. They aren't fully extended and it's a fairly natural movement?

 

People come up with all sorts of weird theories. How can we say it's the heeling that caused it? Not maybe running full speed into a hard bite sleeve multiple times a week? At the end of the day, these dogs are no different than any other athletes. At some point injuries happen. Over years of competing and training bodies just break down. Dog or human, no difference. If people are not willing to take the risk, then don't play.

 

Exactly Jeremy!

I was going to say in the grand scheme of things - the sport is physically hard on our dogs..

 

Not just our dogs. People too. Look at the helpers who catch the dogs at 30+ mph. Tell me their backs or shoulders aren't out of wack. Handlers get injured and take a beating. It's just the way it is. Funny thing is, the better I get at decoying, the more injuries I get. The better I get, the more confident I am. The more confident I am, the more I push the edge to bring that little extra out of a dog. The more I push the edge, the more I get injured/bit. It's a risk we all take.

 

Im taking a basic obedience course and we walking around having our dogs look at us at a heel . We were instructed to keeping hand a little lower (belly button length)so head was set not that high up. I had to think this still had to be uncomfortable even if it for a little bit. Prance heeling it all looks nice but what is the point of it. I know it is all to look like the dog is focused on you but he really is focused on the treat in hand. I can see this be damaging to the neck and spine, its a very unnatural position and are being trained to keep their neck curved even if it gets stiff not being able to stretch or change position only for judges sake. All in the name of looking like they are focusing on you. The judges may want to revisit that rule.

 

You don't get the prancing from just the head being up. There are many components to it. My dog heels likes that. His conformation is such that he can do it. He was taught to push off his rear which drops his butt. when his butt drops, his front goes up. THAT is what causes the prancing. Not just the head up and focus on you.

And if a dog is focused on a treat in your hand then he's looking the wrong way. The dogs are taught to look up to your face or shoulder area. Their focus is supposed to be on you.

However, if the conformation doesn't allow it then don't force it. You aren't out on a field heeling for hours so I highly doubt it's that damaging to their necks. Like mycobraracr said....hitting that sleeve has to be far worse for their spines than heeling.

 

I totally agree - AND I also think doing bite work early - even rag work - is detrimental to the spine of a dog.....think about how those pups are shaken and lifted - all those behaviors are impressive when we see them! We love seeing pups who show alot of promise....but after watching so many dogs work young, and become horrendously compromised as they age - not working my babies now....let their skeletons mature before pushing them!

Lee

 

Yes I suppose he is focusing on me giving him the treat that is in my hand. When we are heeling and he is looking at me he is focused on my face then there will be occasional glances at my hand or sometimes somewhere else. I'm in no way calling this prancing when we are heeling and his head up looking at me. Either one is not a natural movement. I can see having them focus on you but for them to carry it and without pausing makes no sense to me at all. In a sport or in any training they should be taught how to carry themselves correctly where stiffness or straining does not occur which otherwise would lead to neck/spinal/nerve problems regardless of confirmation. Hours on the field no but time spent on training adds up.

 

It's not a matter of "prancing". It's a matter of function. If they are pushing off their rear then they are straight and not side-winding. If they are looking up at your shoulder instead of your face, they are not curled around you and forging. The "prancing" can be the end result of teaching them to push off their rear to control their bodies if their conformation allows for it.

If your dog is strong. If the heeling is built up as an exercise so the muscle and endurance is there. If you take proper care of your dog. If you take your dog for chiropractic adjustments. Then none of this is an issue.

 

I'm new to this heeling and just started focus heeling. Collected/prance heeling and focused heeling makes no sense to why it's done. How can they be collected when the head is up and looking at ones shoulder. I'm not being a brat, just trying to figure this out. Im just suggesting this training technique and or competition requirement should be revisited.

 

There is nothing in the rule book that says your dog must do a focused heel.

 

"attentive to the handler" that's what you'll hear the judge say in IPO.

 

Yes I know that. Judges want to see it, but per the rules, it is not a point loss. Judges always mention things in the critique that are not a point loss.

 

I think people are changing the rules in their head. It has always been required that the dog be attentive but as was just pointed out, nothing says the dog has to look the way some of them do. Frankly, you can have very nice heeling and teach it in a rather short period of time. For me, it doesn't require all the steps people take in the training but I am not using a ball in the armpit. You should have attentive heeling because it will impact the rest of the routine if you don't, but you do not need to teach it exactly like what is being talked about here.

People constantly want to talk about the "new, better" ways to train something without knowing that people have tried stuff like this for a very long time. The most important factor in dog training is the dog. You have to, (or maybe should is a better way to say it), use what works for the dog.

What I see happening more nowadays is people trying to fit the dog into their training vs fitting the training to the dog. In the long run, doing the former will have a less than desirable result. I take my dogs out and see what they respond best to. Rarely is it all about a ball for my dogs. Frankly, and I am certain someone will be offended but oh well, won't be the first time....just saying yes! and dropping the ball seems like not enough for a breed bred to please. It also strikes me how quiet the handlers are, like they think they always have to look like they are trail ready. We used to talk about that and what a mistake it is but not all of the dogs were quite this ball/prey driven so, you had to know more than one way to do things.

My first SchH 3 dog pranced. We got quite a bit of attention because of that,( it was 1980), since many dogs were not that attentive or happy back then. Taught with praise and subtle corrections, he did not get in my way so didn't lose points for that and you DID lose points if the dog got in your way, lagged or forged etc. People seem to like to re-write history that they only know about thru stories but much today is similar but it wasn't as easy for so many people to achieve it. There was a larger variety of dogs and it was a new sport here but the rules were always more similar to today. Just like the GSD standard is the same but the judges have perverted it and nothing matches what is written.
As for the health aspect....I would think the hocks could be compromised by the way in which people are teaching this. Heeling for a few minutes looking up never hurt my dogs and I have trained them to be attentive like that for a very long time.

 

Is it this dog at about 2:20 heeling in the group?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyNV-MimqTI

I would look at that as a very smooth, natural movement with that dog. When I think of the prancing being talked about lately, it has a kind of extreme, forced look to it. In type the descriptions maybe blur? But being able to see it, there's a clear difference.

 

That's alot of video to look thru to get to that dog. No, that's my first dog's son but his heeling was similar. I would say the big difference with that dog, is not simply that he was looking up at me but the expression on his face makes it clear it is about me. Not about a ball. In fact, he had no ball drive whatsoever. lol. Scored very well and he was an extremely powerful dog.

For ME, that is important because that is what the breed is supposed to be. BTW, I have trained a female all the way to a SchH 3 using a ball and food, and maybe four corrections during the time I was training her. Her heeling was nice too but it lacked this aspect. She was bred by someone else and was more like many of the dogs now, so I used what worked for her.

I realize it's "just a sport" now but it won't be the same breed when and if that aspect of the dog is gone. When the judge used to talk about willingness, they were looking for something a little different than what we see now.

I think some of the dogs look very nice in the heeling now...I'm not knocking everyone's efforts or accomplishments. I am simply saying there is more than one way to teach it and if the title really IS about breeding, we should want to preserve the kind of dog who loves to please, is easy to handle because of that and doesn't require people to be wizards of e-collars etc.

IMO, the way the training is conducted by some makes it much more necessary to have to use the e-collar. Too much to write to explain that but I've worked hundreds of dogs as the helper and maybe more in obedience. I see and feel their reaction to the different methods. Sometimes, people get caught up in one way of doing things thinking it is kinder to their dog when in fact, in the long run, it isn't.

 

Well, I already knew where to look. I think thats the real point of whats being talked about with heeling, maybe not exactly on this thread but at trials and training what I'm hearing is what you're saying, the willingness and attitude with the handler being more valued then the, word used to describe it, "Artificial" extreme head back prance.

 

I would look at that as a very smooth, natural movement with that dog. When I think of the prancing being talked about lately, it has a kind of extreme, forced look to it. In type the descriptions maybe blur? But being able to see it, there's a clear difference.

I know what you are referring to, I see videos of it constantly. I was not saying my dog pranced like the dogs trained with the ball etc. but he did indeed prance.
My point was, you can have nice heeling and get good scores without teaching that. This was a dog who loved to please and responded to praise and yes his prance was more natural.I never tried to get the prance exactly, just praised my dog for heeling and that was the result.

This is a more recent dog trained with praise and correction. He was young here so a little too enthusiastic at a strange field but the attitude is there and again, not trained using the methods we are discussing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXnsdAPPWVk

This is his uncle...more prance which was natural for this dog, and trained with praise and corrections. The two dogs I was discussing in my earlier post looked like this with the prance but were bigger dogs and built differently, (although closely related), and they were maybe more smooth with the way they threw out the front legs because of that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBFx_EJ7jI

So, if you don't have the drive for the ball or you are concerned about health and you do have something else to work with...there is a way to do it and yes, you can get an excellent rating.

When I started, people mostly went out to show who their dog was. You were considered a good trainer if you could put your dog on display and not get in the way of a really great dog. Meaning you brought out the dog's natural drives and instincts and didn't ruin the dog with bad training.
Times have changed and the trainer is more on display. That's just the facts. That dog in the video you posted was trained 25 years ago... born in 1988. Like I said, attentive yes and for the time, that heeling was consistently rated excellent and I think it still would be today. In other trials, the prance was maybe more pronounced but that's the only footage I have of him.

Again, just for those who don't want to train their dog the one way, I am saying you can achieve very nice heeling another way and as people have said already, no requirement to prance. If you don't have the drive for the ball and you do have something else to work with...there is a way to train heeling and yes, you can get an excellent rating.

 

When I started, people mostly went out to show who their dog was. You were considered a good trainer if you could put your dog on display and not get in the way of a really great dog. Meaning you brought out the dog's natural drives and instincts and didn't ruin the dog with bad training.

I love this.

 

I can see dogs the dogs need to be completely focused onto the task at hand. I know a dog can push through their pain to please their owner and to be rewarded. I like to see them give their neck a rest. I enjoyed the videos

 

Agree with Anne.

The structure has a lot to do with the "prancing". Enzo is a V rated dog in structure and he did natural prancing in his heeling. No pushing back into the position.

Frodo and Griff are SG. Different structure and different actual heeling. Griff has a slightly longer neck that gets that focused heeling look, without forcing the dog into an un-natural consistent gate.

So, if you take a dog without the structure that would consistently translate into "prancing heeling", the trainer would have to push the dog into a consistent position that would then consistently cause possible issues. I see pictures of training, not with ball or food, but with prongs and electric.......

I have seen multiple young dogs, not even IPO1, that are already getting chiro and laser treatments for neck and back issues, that are trained with this push back with multiple training tools. The issues that they are being treated for could be genetic and/or could be work related, or both.

 

Not just our dogs. People too. Look at the helpers who catch the dogs at 30+ mph. Tell me their backs or shoulders aren't out of whack.

I've worked dogs for decades. Now I am older, so get discounts at crappy restaurants but until recently, the only problem I experienced was sciatica. Was that from helper work? No, more genetic and I always have felt discomfort when just standing for long periods of time. The rest of my body was fine. Now I feel more age related issues but nothing terrible. I am still very active and still work dogs.

I attribute my ability to still do it, to the way I worked the dogs. When the dog would hit, my body would be relaxed so it could absorb the impact and I would not hurt the dog. I can't tell you how many people I have to tell to NOT brace themselves before the dog hits. It is a natural response and some helpers are doing it anyway.
Also, when a dog "hits back", something I encourage and I can feel the dog about to do, again, I relax so the dog not only feels powerful and can move me around, but my shoulders don't get ripped apart trying to prevent the dog from doing that. This is one thing I see helpers do constantly, they try to prevent it and it is not only bad for the dog, it is bad for them. The reason drunk drivers survive and the people who see the crash coming do not, is because the drunk is relaxed on impact.

I'm not talking about trial routine, there is a certain way the helpers have to work the dogs there, I am talking about training. We do much more of that as helpers than the latter.

How this applies to heeling, my theory anyway, is how relaxed the dog is while doing it. The method with the ball, asks the dog to exert more unnatural movement and seems more rigid. Speaking of chiropractors, I will say not all are created equal and I have heard some very bad advice from some of them, including avoiding x-rays, (to save money to give to them instead).

As for not liking the head up. You can certainly train the dog to heel looking straight ahead. People used to do it all the time. Just make sure he is paying attention to you is all.
Also, heeling should not be something you have to work and work at. It should come easier for the dog if you are a good trainer. It should not have to be worked on day in and day out. So, if you like the head up, you can do that and not cause damage. My dogs have lived full lives without any adjustments by a chiropractor. There are genetic issues with the back in GSDs and no chiropractor can prevent that from happening. Can they make it better for the dog? I would guess so but for me, maintaining the dogs fitness and his musculature is the most important. Stretching I think would be very useful.

What dogs do all by themselves didn't used to require this level of medical intervention. Maybe the dogs were a little tougher? Or maybe the people were different. Some say we were simply animal abusers but that certainly was not something I saw over and over. People who were not in control of their emotions training dogs? Sure but who just sits in situations like that and says or does nothing? You either stop them or better yet, help them to work the dog a better way. I have found that to be the best way because most of that behavior is simply frustration fueled by not knowing how to train.

Anyway, relaxation is IMO a big part of this for both people and dogs.

 

And helpers, etc. should be doing flexibility, strength conditioning, endurance conditioning as well as the dogs.

So many trainers/handlers do not have a normal routine of strengthening and conditioning for their dogs. That should start when training starts and adjust, based on age and stage of the dog.

 

I need more than anecdotal data to relate both things so bluntly. It's a good hypothesis but I would like to know if there are more dogs within the lines affected or if a given handler happens to have this problem with multiple dogs, etc. Aaaaaand... I'd like to see more proof of actual damage than the word of one or two chiropractors. Stiffness, limping, inflamation, x-rays, muscle damage markers... Many only want to make their keep.

Now about prancing. To me is not about what the rear does or how the front legs move, to me is all about energy. I like to see energy, I like to see power, I want to see not only attention but desire to be there. All that powers needs to go somewhere and you can have a dog that forges, a dog that crosses or, in my case, a dog that pushes against my leg. So what I try to do is to take all that energy and direct it upwards instead of forward. Maybe the final picture is a prancing dog but my goal is not a dressage picture, but a dog eating me with its eyes. That is what I see on Anne's dog eyes and it has nothing to do with his back.