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Teaming with Microbes won't give you a direct answer , it is after all a book about soil and horticulture . However, whether reading about Pasteur and his rivals Bernard and Bechamp, or more recent rethinking on probiotics , or the horticultural book , or the thread about the vet-baffling skin problem , it comes down to a weakness in the system which has , as the "Microbes" book said , allowed a mafia of pathogens to prosper . The answer is about the terrain, the environment , whether stable and resistant , or destabilized and vulnerable.

So how does one out compete ?

If it were intestinal antibiotic caused unbalance the answer would be probiotics to establish a beneficial stabilized gut flora .
If it were stressed grasses , plants, chance the environment , the pH , the nutrition of the soil - feed the soil , not the plant .
If it were insects feed the soil, to feed the plant . In a companion book to "Microbes" "Teaming with Nutrients" there is proof that strong healthy plants resist aphids and slugs and pests.
Strong healthy trees do not attract fungus and so on.



I wondered about the exposure and resistance (or not) that working field Labs, retrievers and poodles would experience . Came across this information packed forum/site Please participate in New Pythiosis Study!!!!

some information might surprise you. Dogs with exposure indicated by antibodies , that are well and healthy .

Bob Glass is or was (older site) a participant - quote from the site

"Hello, I am Bob Glass, the owner of Pan American Vet Labs. With Tammy's help we are conducting the study which is the subject of this discussion. I will try to answer some of the questions from this thread:

First let me say that Tammy has done a great job in answering your questions and I can't add a lot to most of what she has posted.

The study:
We will try to test a minimum of 200 Retriever breed dogs who active in hunting/filed trials. These dogs are more likely to be exposed to Pythium than "house" or "lap" dogs and should give us more information.
Animals that are infected with Pythium develop antibodies and we think animals that come in contct with Pythim but do not develop an enduring infection will also develop antidoies to the organism. The initial test for anti Pythium antibodies will be an "ELISA" test done at our lab in Hutto, Tx. This is a very sensitive test that was developed at our lab with input from Dr. Leo Mendoza at Michagan State Un. (MSU) and researchers from the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta GA. Samples that warrant further study (ie test positive) will go to MSU to Dr. Mendoza's lab for Western Blot anaylysis to further characterize the antibodies of interest.
We hope to answer several questions with the data from this study and with the limited data (35 samples) that we so far we are asking even more questions.
1. Are dogs whom frequently have contact with "dirty" water more likely to have antibodiy to Pythium?
2. Are there geographic areas that pose a higher risk of exposure to Pythium?
3. Can we correlate presence of antibody with a history of transient/mild symptoms of Pythium infection?
4. Is the antibody in "exposed but not ill" dogs significantly different from the antibody in infected dogs?
5. Is the antibody in "exposed but not ill" dogs protective against future Pythium infections?
5. Does the antibody in "exposed but not ill" (EBNI) dogs offer a clue in the development of a vaccine which will prevent Pythium infection?

As you can see we have more questions than answers, but we are excited about the "answers" that this study may bring.


We do not think that Pythium infection is genetically related. While it is true that some breeds/blood lines have a "weaker" immune system this is not specific for Pythium infection but rather for any infectious disease. I also do not think that Pythium infection is an indicator a "weak" immune system.

We do not (yet) know if the antibodies we are seeing in EBNI dogs is protective. We have some data and anecdotal evidence that horses vaccinated with our Pythium Immuntherapy product may be protective for +/-1 year. We do not have enough data to be sure of this "protection" and continue to collect data on this question and we have essentially no data relative to protective antibodies in dogs.

Relative to Pythium in ponds or vegetation near water. It is important to remember that there are several varieties of Pythium but only Pythium insidiosum is known to infect animals. so even if you could look at a plant and see the Pythium (which you can't) you could not tell if it was P. insidiosum or another Pythium. There is a test for Pythium in plants/water available from Neogen Corp's European Office. Unfortunaly this test does not differentiate between P. insidiosum and other Pythiums.

I hope this answers some of your questions but please feel free to post any questions here or send to me direct by email. I apologize for missing some telephone calls, I have several facilties at different sites and am on the move most all the time. I can usually be reached in my office between 7 and 9 AM and if I am not in the office the phone should ring through to my cell. I check my email frequently throughout the day and will answer any questions as quickly as possible.

I encourage every one to think seriously about particiapating in the study. With your help we hope to be able to make important and lifesaving progress in develoing the tools to fight this disease.

Bglass

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getting more esoteric --- If I were to have a line of questioning , my mentors would fire back a question for me to go hunt search for answers --- Socratic method of learning and teaching . Although, I sneakily suspect they don't have answers either and so are interested to see what I may find -- . The last one I had I was sent to look into pleomorphism , the ability of bacterial organisms to adapt to their environment by changing (pleo or plastic) bodies (morph) .
Always the environment or the terrain .
 
Hey everyone, just wanted to give a quick update.

Our Vet called us today, and said they she spoke with Dr. Grooters late yesterday about Loki's histopath slides. Dr. Grooters said that it definitely looked like Pythiosis, and then she began to say how we needed to get started on her treatment methods right away. Which our Vet looked into, and lets just say it isn't cheap.:( Either way, we are relieved that Dr. Grooters, and Bob Glass (Both very well educated on Pythiosis) both agreed that it looked like Pythiosis.

Needless to say, we are not going to even consider her options. We are sticking to our gut, and going to go with what we believe it the best hope for Loki.

Loki is going on Friday for his 3rd immunotherapy shot, but we will be starting him on a second round 2 weeks after. Bob Glass said that it is a good idea, and helps "mop" away what the first round missed.
I think it's great that you have further confirmation about the Pythiosis. It's really nice to have a diagnosis that you can hang your hat on. Even if the other treatment is expensive, to me, the success rate is the real clincher (as I think it is for you too).

I was (and still am) critical of your old vet, but it sounds like he did a good job cleaning out the wound, and that is giving Loki a good shot here.

Good luck with the shot tomorrow! Keep a watch on all the shots in case you start seeing more of a reaction (that's just me being paranoid about vaccinations).
 
Discussion starter · #824 ·
Thanks Lisa, and Carmspack.

We got the 3rd immunotherapy shot yesterday, and Loki did really well. No reaction or side effects at all. He is doing fine today and hopefully we can put all of this behind us soon.

We are ordering a 2nd round the the immunotherapy on Monday so that will be another round of 3 shots.

Thank you everyone for the support!
 
My co-worker in NYS is waiting on test results from Cornell. Young dog's bones are disintegrating. It's either this or bone cancer. His GF, who owns the dog, is devastated. If it's positive that puts this awful stuff in the PA/Ohio/NY area. :(
 
Discussion starter · #829 ·
Glad to hear that Loki is doing well. You guys have been through so much - I bet you'll be so glad to put this all behind you!
Thank you so much, we are starting to feel somewhat comfortable know that his first round of 3 injections have been finished.

My co-worker in NYS is waiting on test results from Cornell. Young dog's bones are disintegrating. It's either this or bone cancer. His GF, who owns the dog, is devastated. If it's positive that puts this awful stuff in the PA/Ohio/NY area. :(
I can't believe that! I really hope it comes back negative for Pythiosis, and they can get a proper diagnosis. That is so sad to hear.:(
 
Thank you so much, we are starting to feel somewhat comfortable know that his first round of 3 injections have been finished.



I can't believe that! I really hope it comes back negative for Pythiosis, and they can get a proper diagnosis. That is so sad to hear.:(
Glad your boy is doing well!!!

Yes, very sad and shocking to hear. He told me the pup had Lyme's when we left last night but that was wrong. I don't think the end diagnosis is going to matter. Neither does my co-worker but they have to wait for the results to come back.
 
It was bone cancer. They lost him. So sad. Only a year old and one of the top hunting dogs in the nation. Very sad.
Bone cancer spreads quickly and totally sucks. Usually by the time you find it, it is way too late. Our previous dog died of bone cancer, we lost him 3 weeks after diagnosis. The pain of the bone cancer is incredible. Not that any doggie disease is fun, but things are particularly difficult when you can't do anything to help with the pain, but say goodbye.
 
Discussion starter · #836 ·
Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been posting on here as much, now that we feel a little more comfortable with Loki's health, we are spending a lot more time with Loki, and doing things with him that everyone normal puppy should experience.

He is doing really good, his incision looks great, and there are no signs of any returning wound. He is starting to get really feisty, and suddenly has more energy than ever before:p, but I'm not complaining.

We started his 2nd round of immunotherapy injections yesterday, which will be another 3 shots, so 6 shots total, and he received his 4th shot yesterday.

He also swam in the pool yesterday, it has been over 3 months since he has been in any type of water, other than a bath haha, and trust me when I say this, he will NEVER be going into any pond every again!;)

Thank you everyone so much for all of the support and advice, I promise you that when I say we wouldn't be where we are today without you, I mean it!:)
 
great to hear, thanks for the update, think of you often! take care!
 
I've been stalking this thread and didn't have any knowledge to share so just stayed silent but I'm glad he's doing better! Praying for a speedy recovery and for his health :) You've done a great job helping your puppy!
 
Discussion starter · #840 ·
Quick question woogsyboogsy. You said the wound looks great so far, does that mean the cut has already grown back together, sealed up well?
When I said the wound, I actually meant to say incision, sorry for the confusion haha. The incision is fully healed, and closed. The hair has grown back way faster than we ever expected, however we have had to shave around the incision twice since the surgery, just so we can keep a closer eye on the site.

According to Bob Glass, who has been studying Pythiosis for over 20+ years, he said that if the original wound, (meaning Pythiosis), does not "resurface" at the site of the incision within 30 days of the first immunotherapy shot, which was 7/25, then Loki's chances of survival have almost doubled.

It has been 36 days today from his first immunotherapy injection, and there are no signs of any returning Pythium.:fingerscrossed: So this is great news.
 
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