how totally frustrating. thinking of you and hoping things turn a corner somehow and become more hopeful and positive. take care. (((hugs))).

 

You have no idea how frustrating this is...we are trying to stay as positive as possible.

 

In the meantime be proactive .

Ask one of the attending vets what you should be doing for the dog to maintain or improve whatever health status the dog has at the moment.

Should you be giving efa's , should you be giving some natural anti fungal , an immune balancer , vitamin C , E, probiotics to help with balance of gut flora and general health.

There has to be something .

 

I will post in the morning, I am far to tired to post now, but I will give a quick run down on what has happened today.

From more than 10 people I had the chance to talk to today, I've learned that Dr. Grooters has ALWAYS been against Bob Glass. She had the funding for the research for the immunotherapy but was never able to make a serum to save the dogs. However, Bob Glass, Dr. Leo Mendoza at Michigan State & Dr. Richard Hanson in New Castle, OK, were able to create an immunotherapy that has been proven time after time to be effective, Therefore Grooters runs Mr. Glass' serum down, and doesn't recommend it to anyone...IT BLOWS MY MIND!:headbang:

I will post more tomorrow, I haven't slept in a while.:crazy:

 

The politics of research is pretty ugly when it gets to the level when it affects the health of the ones it is supposed to help

I'm really glad that you were able to get some info on this.

Often, when there is a false positive on a test, there can be some cross-reaction, and that seems to happen more often, I think, when the titers come back in the low-positive range. I do not know if your titer value is more of an indication that this is not a false positive, or whether this works the same way.

I know that, so far, Loki has been holding his own, and I'm going to hang onto that thought right now.

 

The Politics on this is extremely distasteful...I cannot believe what I had learned yesterday.

The chance of survival with Anti-fungals and Surgery is so slim (3-5%), according to Dr. Grooters. Where as Surgery, and the immunotherapy is much greater (45-50%).

Also the use of anti-fungals on a 6 month old puppy would probably be devastating to his kidneys and his whole well-being in general.

We are going to go with our instinct and stick with Bob Glass.

 

This has got to be so confusing. How do you know who to listen to? I think I know which way I would go. I can't say how many times I went with the advice of a pharmacist over a doctor and the pharmacist was always right......in this case Glass is the pharmacist.

 

It is so confusing, when I got the call from our Vet yesterday, my mind had exploded with so many negative thoughts. But we have had time to think about it and have made our decision.

 

One has told you to use anti fungals which have been seen to not work and one has told you to use immunotherapy which has been seen to work in many cases......I know who I would be listening to.

 

Excellent choice of words. I'm glad you are on our side!

 

your research and perseverance just blow my mind. get some rest. sending all good thoughts.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but I won't be able to fully rest until I know Loki's health is taken care of.

 

Sometimes you gotta go with your gut

We ended up in a situation with our previous dog, where we were getting conflicting diagnosis based on seeking a 2nd opinion with specialists. We didn't know what to do or have the medical background to make any sense of the options.

I ended up sitting down with our general Vet, who I really trusted, and just said which of the specialists do you think it right? We went with his recommendation and didn't look back. It was a gut call based on who we had the most trusted working relationship with for the dog.

You guys have already demonstrated that you have Loki's best interest at heart by moving him to a different Vet with more experience, searching out options, researching, taking time off to care for him. You'll make the right decisions because you are making them from the unselfish position of doing what is right for Loki.

That being said, don't you sometimes just wish the language barrier could be lifted for just a minute so you could give your dog the pros and cons and ask them what they want to do! That is what makes this relationship with dogs so unique, trust across the species divide that you are both doing your best for the other.

 

We ended up in a situation with our previous dog, where we were getting conflicting diagnosis based on seeking a 2nd opinion with specialists. We didn't know what to do or have the medical background to make any sense of the options.

I ended up sitting down with our general Vet, who I really trusted, and just said which of the specialists do you think it right? We went with his recommendation and didn't look back. It was a gut call based on who we had the most trusted working relationship with for the dog.

You guys have already demonstrated that you have Loki's best interest at heart by moving him to a different Vet with more experience, searching out options, researching, taking time off to care for him. You'll make the right decisions because you are making them from the unselfish position of doing what is right for Loki.

That being said, don't you sometimes just wish the language barrier could be lifted for just a minute so you could give your dog the pros and cons and ask them what they want to do! That is what makes this relationship with dogs so unique, trust across the species divide that you are both doing your best for the other.

Yeah we definitely trust our "new" vet way more than the previous. But I'm not so sure I'll ever be able to fully trust any Vet. We definitely feel as though this is the right decision for Loki's well-being.

And I totally wish for even 30 seconds I could just talk to Loki and let him know whats going on, but you are right, that's what makes owning an animal completely unique.

Thank you so much for the support!!!

 

I think one hopes to develop a trusting relationship with a vet whose opinions you respect, but once you've gone through something like this, the days of "blind trust" are over. This will change the way you approach your care for Loki and every other animal you have in the future (and maybe even your own health). I would say that those lessons also extend to trainers too....

I don't know why, but I kinda like seeing a bit of a reaction to the shot, but that might be misguided. I'm very encouraged that you aren't seeing any skin symptoms with the shots. I don't think the surgery got it all, but I think nothing showing up now may be a good sign that it got enough to give the immune system a chance to mop the stray stuff up.

I might wonder if at some point xrays would be warranted (I was worried about the bone issue from some of the other stuff I had read), but, in some sense, that won't change anything that you do at this point, and, when looked at it from that point of view, is an added cost that doesn't alter things.

The important part is that Loki can feel your intent. He knows what he needs to know

 

Yeah unfortunately for us, this situation has changed out perspective on A LOT of things. Trusting Vets is the main one, also now we are going to be paranoid about letting him in any body of water.

His second shot was administered yesterday, and the only reaction I can see is that he might be a little lethargic. There is no actual visual reaction on his skin at the injection site.

When we get the Ultrasound done, we are going to ask that Specialist if she would recommend having Xrays done, I'm not sure if it would be pointless?

I think Loki can understand that we are trying to do everything we can for him, but we just want him to be happy, and healthy, and for all of this to be behind us.

Thanks for the support Lisa!

 

Not sure about the xray, just don't want to spend anymore of your money than necessary!!

The water thing is REALLY disturbing, just the number of things that can be an issue. I didn't realize how many truly nasty things the dogs were getting. In the UK early this summer, dogs were succumbing to Alabama Rot somehow from the soil (they still don't know what causes it). I know dogs have gotten very sick from the algae bloom too, and now huge numbers of people can't drink their water in ohio because of it. With the drought here in CA, I know there are going to be some issues here too. Jazz here doesn't swim, but she likes to slap the water and catch the drops with her mouth. I think Loki has a lot of us kinda paranoid! He has served as a public service announcement I guess.....

Glad he is doing well after the second shot!

 

Yeah we will find out if the Xray is necessary tomorrow. But I couldn't agree more. We NEVER in a million years would have thought this would have happened with us to our very FIRST dog...it has just opened our eyes to so much more, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

 

We are going tomorrow for the Ultrasound, I will update this status with the results. Wish us tons of luck!

 

Keeping all of you in my thoughts and saying a prayer.

 

I have used CALENDULA cream for similar situation and had great success.
I heard about it in a holistic health for dogs book.
wishing you all the best.

 

Is this an oral treatment? I've never heard of it before, I will have to do some research. Also thank you for the support!

 

Calendula wouldn't be powerful enough, it's a topical, though I think marigold is taken internally sometimes.....

Best of luck for tomorrow!

 

Good luck today! I'll be thinking of you all (non-stop). Fingers crossed (tight). Hoping for the miracle of all miracles.

 

UPDATE:

We just got back from the Ultrasound and there were absolutely NO signs of any GI Pythium!!! So this is great news, we can rule out anything internal.

Also, I talked to our Vet and told her what I had discovered about Dr. Grooters, and she informed me that Dr. Grooters told her that she is still going to look at the slides and determine if it is Pythium, or something else...which totally stresses, and confuses us.

She could easily manipulate us and come back and say that it isn't Pythium, and then try to get us to follow her regime.


ALSO, a very scary story to tell that happened this morning. My girlfriend keeps our house immaculate, she cleans it literally three times a week. Anyways, I woke up this morning, and felt something crawling on my hand, and it was a tick!!! I took a picture of it, it was NOT full of blood, and I did end up killing it. We searched Loki for a good 30 minutes and didn't find anything...but we are very worried about that now because he is on NO tick and flea medication. I also haven't taken him in ANY woods within the last 2 1/2 months...:headbang:

 

UPDATE:

We just got back from the Ultrasound and there were absolutely NO signs of any GI Pythium!!! So this is great news, we can rule out anything internal.

Also, I talked to our Vet and told her what I had discovered about Dr. Grooters, and she informed me that Dr. Grooters told her that she is still going to look at the slides and determine if it is Pythium, or something else...which totally stresses, and confuses us.

She could easily manipulate us and come back and say that it isn't Pythium, and then try to get us to follow her regime.

This is great news Did you ask about the need for xrays, since it seems that is how the cutaneous stuff spreads?

What a huge relief, and I think now you just hope the vaccine is doing its magic. If you try the Springtime for the ticks, the garlic may help fighting the pythium.

From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with

As for the controversy between Glass and Grooters. Somewhere in the middle, there is the "real" story, which we will never know. Because they disagree, and because Glass has a vaccine that is somewhat effective, that does not mean that Grooters doesn't know what she is talking about. We see a lot of this controversy in some of the differences between tick disease labs and tests, and you'll see it in the controversy surrounding the test for GSD DM.

 

Is his incision healed? If so, put some on him. They can pick ticks up right in the yard and off landscaping bushes.

 

Is his incision healed? If so, put some on him. They can pick ticks up right in the yard and off landscaping bushes.

...and squirrels and rodents and neighborhood cats and birds....

 

Our vet recommended that he go on Nexgard. He is currently on Heartguard for his Heartworm prevention. What do you guys think about this?

Jax, his incision is not fully healed yet, so we are refraining from using any topical treatments.

 

I like nexgard.

 

That is great news! As for the tick ... ewwww. Hate those things. I would check Loki over EVERY single time he comes in from outside and periodically throughout the day. Can your vet send the slides to a NEUTRAL specialist ... say, like Cornell University? I really hope Loki is going to be ok. So sorry you have to be put through this.

 

Thank you so much, and definitely a good idea that I had not thought about. Sending the slides to a neutral vet seems like a very good option. Not sure how that will work though because Dr. Grooters received the slides today.

Thank you so much for the support!!!

 

kept bugging me , pythium, knew I knew it from some where but it has been so long and pushed back into the old memory bank.

pythium , would this be the same fungas that is responsible for root rot, damping off (sprouting seeds that are too moist) Pythium blight (a particularly devestating disease)

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conditions , warm, wet , humid , poor drainage - monoculture - so your dog does not need to go into a pond to be exposed.​

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what are your lawns like?​

 

Pythium isn't a fungus, so no it can't be.

 

look, I know people think I am cuckoo -- I tend to think outside the box. We all really really need to be sensitive to environmental damage because we are painting ourselves into corners that we can't get out of.
Those in research look farther afield.

quote "Pythium is a genus of parasitic oomycotes. Most species are plant parasites, but Pythium insidiosum is an important pathogen of animals. They were formerly classified as fungi; the feet of the fungus gnat are frequently a vector for their transmission"

apparently there are several species Pythium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

how does an oomycote minding it's own business in a stagnant pond glom onto a mammal and start to colonize and cause havoc.

ask your vet .

look at your total environment

 

This is from a very recent article I cam across that will perfectly answer your question.

Pythium gets under the skin and it immediately spits an enzyme to start the rotting process around itself creating the sore that will not heal, feeds on the little rot it creates, and starts to grow. In just a day, you can see the sore but not the organism. Then, it creates a wall around itself called a KUNKER, and it grows inside of it. When it needs to move, it opens one end of the kunker like a trap door, spits the enzymes, shuts the door and waits for the rot to continue, then feeds on it. As the Pythium grows, the Kunker grows and borrows deeper into the tissue of the animal.

A few things happen at this stage of new invading Pythium. The host animal produces from it's immune system to fight off the invasion and an animal with a strong and normal Immune system can handle the invasion, produce anti-bodies for infection quickly, the pythium dies or just leaves the host animal.

After the entrance, spitting and rot, it eats. It gorges itself, and when filled it needs the protective shell the Kunker, to go back into. This Kunker has a mouth and tight door to open and close, it opens to spit, retracts and waits. The outer shell forms spikes to grip tissue. With the spikes it sticks in tissue and holds on then proceeds to make tunnels to travel in made of the same hard shell. In the tunnels are the enzymes for rotting and new Pythium it intends to release into rotten tissue, thus the rapid spreading. New Pythium hatch, and the process and infestation continues as it breeds and makes food for the new ones. These connecting tunnels can not be broken, they are smaller then the Kunker itself, or the new young pythium will be released into the surrounding tissue. Now the original home base Pythium has to grow larger to breed, make rot and GET AIR.

 

Great news on the Ultrasound!

Hey that is awesome news on the ultrasound results!! Sound like a little celebration is in order tonight. If you weren't all the way across the country, we would have a BBQ and beer on the patio tonight and the dogs would get knuckle bones in celebration of good news. Gotta celebrate the bright spots when you get them.

Your description to carmspack on how the pythium works is super scary. You have totally changed how I view all water Ollie drinks and swims in.

We don't really have a tick or flea problem here (super dry climate) so I don't have any advice, but there must be something you can do that won't interfere with the healing wound. What does your Vet say to do?

 

Hey that is awesome news on the ultrasound results!! Sound like a little celebration is in order tonight. If you weren't all the way across the country, we would have a BBQ and beer on the patio tonight and the dogs would get knuckle bones in celebration of good news. Gotta celebrate the bright spots when you get them.

Your description to carmspack on how the pythium works is super scary. You have totally changed how I view all water Ollie drinks and swims in.

We don't really have a tick or flea problem here (super dry climate) so I don't have any advice, but there must be something you can do that won't interfere with the healing wound. What does your Vet say to do?

Thank you so much!!! I totally agree, if you were close by our dogs would be running around chasing each other having a great time! We are definitely thankful of the Ultrasound results and are very relieved.

Yeah how Pythium works is very scary...it has definitely changed our views on ponds and water in general.

But as far as the Ticks and Fleas go, I think we are going to start him on Nexgaurd, and continue with him on the Heartguard. Hopefully that will help.

Thanks again for the support!!!

 

Great news for Loki and for you. As to the ticks, when I lived in Miami and we kept our rather small house with all tile floors very clean. We lived there for some years and never had ticks after treating the 1/2 acre we lived on with beneficial nematodes, removing banana plants, etc. In 2005, my Sunny was very ill - she had a malignancy and it required two surgeries. One morning I woke up to a large tick climbing up the wall of my bedroom. Upon further examination, there were ticks on Sunny and Murphy. We threw out the bedding, had the house fogged and took the dogs to the vet, where the ticks were physically removed, etc. My vet told me that when a dog is ill or weak, they can easily pick up a tick. I do not know if that is true, but we managed to get the house free of ticks as well as the dogs. I believe we also treated the yard. It was very distressing and the last thing we needed with Sunny being so ill. I wanted to pass this on to you because I know how stressful it is to find a tick in the house or on you. Take care, you are not alone as the 77 pages in this forum indicate.
BTW - the above research was incredibly interesting. Loki may well save a lot of dogs lives with his pioneer research.

 

Thank you so much for the support. We have yet to find any more ticks in our house, and still none on Loki, so that's a good thing.

 

Several on the forum, including myself, use Springtime garlic for flea and tick prevention. You may look into it. Jocoyn has a thread on her garlic journey. I'll look it up when I'm on my computer if you haven't found it by then.

David Winners

 

Yeah a couple people mentioned it earlier, I'm probably going to purchase it tonight, thanks for the suggestion.

 

So happy to hear that the ultrasound showed no signs of GI Pythium, what great news, especially after hearing what Dr. Grooters told your vet. Boy talk about a roller coaster ride!

Sending lots of healing vibes Loki's way and hope that this will all be a distant memory soon.

 

Thank you for the support! And you said it...what a roller coaster!!!:crazy:

 

holy cow ! Vampire Fungus: Natural cure for nail fungus, athlete’s Foot, ringworm and jock itch

more on this --

exactly ! quote LisaT
"From what carmspack was saying, looks like the pythium root rot belongs in the same family as what Loki has, but they've only identified the one that is pathogenic to mammals. Some websites call it a fungus, but that's just cuz their lazy: " fungi appear more closely related to animals than to oomycetes, and oomycetes are more closely related to algae and to green plants" (https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/PathogenGroups/Pages/IntroOomycetes.aspx) That link lists a number in the family, including the one that Loki is dealing with

Anyone who has set out trays of seedlings is familiar with damping off , or the product Damp-off http://www.canadiangardening.com/how-to/seeds/how-to-prevent-damping-off/a/20669

quote "Disease is most severe under wet and warm conditions, and disease abatement is associated with cooler drier weather. However, investigators are expecting the range of this pathogen in the northern hemisphere to extend further north in response to global climate changes"

these "things" , organisms , are present in the soil at all time.
The particular one, pythium species, thrives in cool, moist conditions.
That definitely can be a worry to my location lately. We have had below seasonal temperatures "cool" and wet like you can not imagine. Just yesterday afternoon we were hit with as much rainfall as in a two month period . And, it rained in walls of water three times that day . And , it rained in similar fashion two and three days before that . One day of sunshine !
Soil past the saturation point. Folks in Burlington yesterday Burlington flood: 2 months worth of rain falls within hours - Latest Hamilton news - CBC Hamilton

I am sure there will be lots of problems with spores, fungus, molds especially.

As a young person I did some studies in landscape/horticulture and did some practical work in a city run display greenhouse . Pythium did ring a bell , but never heard or experienced it in the animal kingdom before so hearing of a canine with it was quite the eye opener .

thinking outside the box , though , instead of battling the problem you have to change the terrain. You have to make the (potential) host unattractive , through strength and immune health. That goes for turf management . Instead of bombing the area with fungicides , feed the soil so that the grasses aren't stressed and inviting. Phosphorous deficient plants are more susceptible to diseases.
Even Pasteur relented and said it wasn't the bacteria or the germ , it was the terrain.
Don't want to stray to much into something esoteric but all things relate . We really need to change how we look at things .

Why this dog. What was the weakness that made him attractive ? Build the dog own defence systems.
Not to replace the critical or acute care he is receiving but as a support to enhance the dogs own immune responses.

 

Carmspack, your posts are always so thoroughly detailed opcorn: Sometimes I have to read them 3 or 4 times

We are 99.9% positive he contracted the Pythium from the stagnant pond he swam in at around 4 months. I'm still trying to figure out how to send a sample of the water off for testing, but I should know by tomorrow.

Also, you ask why this dog? Why Loki? Well, the main reasons some dogs cannot battle Pythium is because their immune system is to weak. In our case, Loki was only 4 months old, so his immune system was very weak, and still trying to strengthen.