I have a feeling he will make it. I don't know why but I do.

 

Yeah...we do too. :teary:

 

Here are another series of questions and answers between Robert Glass and I.

Robert Glass' responses are in bold.

1. Just to verify, does the test measure antibodies produced by the body in response to the infection, as opposed to a measurement of the level of infection itself.

The test is for antibodies produced in response to exposure or infection with Pythium. We tested over 2000 dogs and horses that had no sign of infection and did not find any that tested Positive.


2. Does the vaccine increase antibody response by the body? If so, and if they expect the antibodies to decrease to normal within a month, does that mean that the vaccine does not provide a long lasting protection? Would that mean that the vaccine is most useful for fighting the disease and not preventing it, or its recurrence?

The Immuotherapy induces antibody production but more importantly stimulates a strong cellular immune response to Pythium. It also induces a change in the immune response from allergic (T2) to a non allergic (T1). This is important as the T2 response does not kill the Pythium and the T1 does. Also, the T2 allergic response is what cause the acute allergic lesion and tissue death. T1 down regulates the allergic response and "defuses" the inflammation. In the animal treated with Immunotherapy the antibody response does not return to normal/negative in a month, in fact this takes as many 6-12 months. When the animal is cured by means other than Immunotherapy (surgery/antifungals/spontaneous remission) the antibody levels may decline to normal levels much earlier. We did an uncontrolled study in horse to look at prevention of infection. This was done in Brazil in a herd of 300 brood mares in the Pantanal region (swamps). This herd had a history of 7-10% infection over >5 years. We vaccinated 100 of the mares and left 200 as negative controls. The study was over a period of 3 years with each horse getting the initial 3 injection series on day 1 and a single injection each year thereafter. After three years the control animals had a total 45 infections (Average 7.5%/year) and the vaccinated horses had no infections. These looks very promising for horses but we don't know if it will be similar for dogs. For now the Immunotherapy should be used to treat infections.


3. Is the correct administered Vaccine procedure, Day 1, Day 7, and then Day 21?

Yes


4. How long do we have to wait after the 3 Vaccines have been given until we can run another blood test?

When using the Immunotherapy blood test to monitor treatment success is not indicated as it will be 6 month or longer before a significant antibody decline may be seen. It is doubtful that an animal that continues to be infected after the treatment will not be clinically ill or even dead after 6 months.


5. Are there any side effects to the Vaccine that we should be aware of, like lethargy, vomiting, diarrhea, reaction to where the Vaccine was administered?

Occasionally a dog will show some lethargy after the treatment. This will go away in 24-48 hours.

6. I'm also wondering if you know of anyone that has tried one of the Tetracyclines in this protocol: In Vitro Susceptibility of Pythium insidiosum to Macrolides and Tetracycline Antibiotics

This is an In Vitro (in a culture not in an animal) study and we have seen several similar studies where In Vitro data is not duplicated in In Vivo (in the animal) studies.



Thank you LisaT

 

In the animal treated with Immunotherapy the antibody response does not return to normal/negative in a month, in fact this takes as many 6-12 months. When the animal is cured by means other than Immunotherapy (surgery/antifungals/spontaneous remission) the antibody levels may decline to normal levels much earlier.

I don't get this. so then why aren't you getting antifungals? or this is either or? or you are getting them?

 

stagnant water is not the only water dogs can pick up 'stuff' from..It can be clear as a bell, but you never know what's lurking in it..

I am a paranoid momma, Masi LOVES to swim, but after she was sick last year, absolutely no ponds, no lakes,,only Ocean and a pool..

 

Yeah, Pool and Ocean is all he will be allowed to go into!

 

You might want to reconsider ocean water - Vibrio Warnings: How to Avoid Ocean-Dwelling Bacteria - there were 33 cases in Florida last year.

 

This was my final question to Robert Glass;

How can we be 100% positive that it is cured? Can't we run an ELISA test in 6-12 months to check and see if there are any traces of Pythium?

My experience with Pythium has been that essentially no dog is infected and still alive six month after diagnosis. I'm sure there are exceptions but very few. If you want to run a test after 6 months (minimum) there is no harm and it will likely show a lower or negative score. In case you decide to do that you should keep this number: 323% that is his Pythium score now and that is the number to use as a comparison for later tests.

Thanks everyone and goodnight!

 

This is not globally true, but appears mostly true. There are *isolated* cases (case?) of a at least one dog fighting for a long time and finally beating it. But statistically it appears, they either beat it at this point, or the results are not good.

But Loki had his surgery, and now the mop up immunotherapy has begun - let the healing begin

 

I think we have to resign ourselves that there are dangers nearly everywhere, and it's probably going to get worse with climate change and the global movement of animal and people

Many regular vet practices don't have an ultrasound machine, and if they do, reading them is really a skill that you want someone with that training reading. Even when my dog had an u/s, the specialty clinic wanted me to wait for the traveling guy to come around, because the vet liked his equipment better, and maybe the skill of the guy too, though he didn't come out and say that.

Those answers by Glass make complete sense - the vaccine will boost the antibody response, which won't wane for several months. And during that critical time, between now and retest, the best guide will be just monitoring his response.

I don't understand why the Ace was used, seems to me that it just complicates observation of the response to the vaccine.

 

Many regular vet practices don't have an ultrasound machine, and if they do, reading them is really a skill that you want someone with that training reading. Even when my dog had an u/s, the specialty clinic wanted me to wait for the traveling guy to come around, because the vet liked his equipment better, and maybe the skill of the guy too, though he didn't come out and say that.

This. I was going to respond to your original post about the ultrasound but LisaT hit the nail on the head. Performing an ultrasound is relatively straightforward and any vet can do it, but reading and interpreting an ultrasound is a completely different ballgame. Unless something is blatantly wrong (e.g. huge tumor, internal bleed, etc.) changes in tissue can be subtle or difficult to correctly identify without a good deal of experience, either by a specialist, or, even better, a radiologist.

My dog was very ill last year and in our search for a diagnosis we took him to a clinic in Canada to have an ultrasound. The vet their told me straight up that she was happy to perform one, but was not confident in her ability to interpret the resultant images. I think it's great that you're seeing a specialist. If we lived in the lower 48 we most definitely would have paid the extra cash to see a radiologist instead!

 

Oh, this also means that the test can be run to determine if a revax is needed down the road, should you decide that you want to keep these antibodies circulating.

There is a special place for people like Robert Glass that make themselves so accessible to us regular pet owners in circumstances like this....

 

I totally agree with everything you've said above Lisa, no matter how hard we try to keep your pets out of danger, the chance of something happening will always be prevalent.

Robert Glass is truly an amazing person, with incredible dedication. He has always answered any of my questions, and very promptly too. He, along with many people on this forum are the reason why we are still trying out HARDEST to fight, and resolve all of this.

Hopefully the immunotherapy will be the finishing touch to destroy this nasty infection.

 

how are the other red bumps in the area that you mentioned a few days ago?

 

The red bumps are still there, they might be slightly smaller. We are keeping a very close eye on them as well, and mentioned them to the Vet, and she said just continue doing what we are doing.

 

Haven't responded but have been reading and thinking of you guys!

 

Thanks Jax, I appreciate the support!

 

UPDATE:

Today is the first day after his first immunotherapy shot. Loki is doing good, he didn't seem to have any adverse reaction to it, thankfully. He seems as normal as ever really. Still eating like a horse, playing here and there, and then coming inside to nap for about a hour, then back at it.

His dew claws that were removed are totally closed up and are almost fully healed. His umbilical hernia incision is closed up, and healed. His main incision is looking really good, we are continuing to keep the Elizabethan collar on him because we don't want to risk anything.

He gets his 2nd immunotherapy shot on August 1st, and his 3rd shot on August 15th. Then we wait 6 months, AND if he is still doing well within that 6 month period, we will retest his blood to see if the Pythium levels have decreased, or are obsolete.

I will be keeping everyone updated here don't worry!!!

 

I am glad that your pup is getting better and I hope the immunotherapy shots take care of the infection!

 

Thank you for the support!

 

After reading all the posts and seeing the diagnosis , I live in Kentucky and I have a pond my horses and Dog like to go in!
I'm now terrified about this! Had your pup been swimming in a warm body of water before this all happened?? Our pond freezes in the winter so hopefully that keeps this at bay! Very scary.


Sent from Petguide.com App

 

Yeah I would definitely be cautious, cases have been recorded in Kentucky. But yeah, he had been in a pond that was stagnant water at around the time all of this arose. We are 99.9% positive that is how he came into contact with this infection.

 

Glad to hear that Loki is doing well.....

 

Thank you Lisa!

 

i'm glad too!!! what an ordeal, whew. and i don't imagine you're totally comfortable yet. so glad tho...that so far, so good. take care!

 

Yeah definitely not even close to comfortable yet. But thank you for the support!

We have our Ultrasound appointment on Thursday. The office is about an hour away, and its what they specialize in. Also, the Vet performing the Ultrasound has seen internal Pythium before, and knows exactly what to look for. We are praying that there are absolutely NO signs of Pythium internally.

 

katielz is right, Oliver's mom if you want to help take it to pm's. WHile we all can appreciate the cost of medical care and understand it comes from the heart, it's not allowed, I'm sure your post will be removed by a moderator of this forum.

 

I've removed a number of posts that where going against the no solicitaion/fundraising on the board rule. As mentioned, if you wish to help, you will need to do so privately.

From the board rules:

Solicitation of donations of money for any reason is not permitted on this board under any circumstances . Posting links to other sites for soliciting and directing people to won't be allowed. This NO SOLICITING rule will be strictly enforced.

Thank you, and good luck with your pup!

 

I feel the need to check in on this site everyday in order to make sure that Loki is still on the mend. I must commend you for being so dedicated to the well being of your dog and at such a young age...very admirable. It sounds like Loki is doing well, I couldn't be more happier for you and your family. You have been through so much and have been handling it like a pro. I feel a good outcome will come out of this.

 

Thank you for the support! We are hoping he is on the road to recovery, and are trying to stay as positive as possible.

Thursday is the ultimate test though. Once we know the results of the Ultrasound (if they are positive), we will be a lot more relieved. We are just hoping that he doesn't have any internal Pythium.

 

How are those new spots that you saw? Hopefully they are unrelated?

 

Hey Lisa, the spots are still there, but they don't appear to be as red, and they look smaller.

 

Whatever they are, glad that they are looking smaller. Good luck tomorrow :fingerscrossed:

 

Thank you so much Lisa, we are very nervous, but are more than ready to get the results on the Ultrasound.

 

Well, looks like the wait continues. The Vet called earlier today, and cancelled our Ultrasound appointment until Monday...so now we have to wait another 3 days...This is killing us slowly having to wait wait wait:crazy:

 

WHAT?!?!?! That makes me sick to my stomach. Come on already! Hang in there. (hugs)

 

Yeah that's exactly how we felt when we got the phone call.

We are just very anxious, and want to get this over with and know the results.:crazy:

 

Fingers crossed here that the ultrasound will come up negative for any signs of Pythium on Monday :hug:

 

Thanks for the support!

 

Well, that sucks. You're right though, you should find out the results right away, which is at least some consolation.

The waiting continues!

 

Hey everyone...I believe we have hit an all time low...

Today I got a call from our Vet, and she told us that she had spoke with Dr. Amy Grooters, (Amy M. Grooters). She is basically the queen of Pythiosis, Lagenidiosis, Zygomycosis, and Molecular mycology.

Dr. Grooters told our Vet, that the Histopath has very non-consistent results, and that the ELISA test can also be a false positive. So, we are sending out the slides from the Histopath to Dr. Grooters in Louisiana so she can look at them her self and determine what exactly it is.

Apparently from what Dr. Grooters told our Vet, is that the Cutaneous, and GI forms of Pythium, do not go together. Usually its one, or the other, not both.

She said that if he tested positive for Pythium PRIOR to surgery, that VERY large margins would need to be removed, as in removing Muscle Mass, Parts of his spine, and possibly a rib. So she said since that wasn't done during the surgery, it is not completely removed, and said she is positive it will return, even with receiving the immunotherapy.

BUT, if it is Cutaneous Lagenidium, and has been removed, more than likely it will not return. However, Internal Lagenidium is almost impossible to cure, even with surgery. When I talked to Bob Glass when we received the results from him, he said that there is a very small chance it could be Lagenidium, but he was certain it was Pythium.

Dr. Grooters told our Vet that he should be put on Anti-fungals, specifically "Itraconazole", which from what I heard from other people who have used it, is around $300 a month. Still haven't figured out how we are going to be able to afford that if we decide to go that route...:crazy: And the majority of the people I've talked to that have used Itraconazole, has said it was very ineffective.

Dr. Grooters also told our Vet that the immunotherapy is really not that effective in cutaneous Pythium.


We feel like we are back to square one again...this is extremely frustrating, and depressing. We are almost at our wits end with all of this, but aren't going to give up. We have spent so much money and time on this and now we feel as though we are back at the starting line.:crazy:

 

how terrible ! You can't have more expert people on your side trying to figure out what this is .

Does anyone remember that thread about the skin condition that baffled vets? There were samples sent to the father of one of my friend's undergrads , whose father just so happens to be a specialist in Norway, chief Vet .
Maybe this can be included in the study.

 

Yeah we feel like we've just done a complete 180...we don't know what to think.:crazy::crazy: