Oh man. This i SO sad

 

it was shocking. I cant believe how those judges would think those back legs on the GSD's are normal

 

I'm in the middle of the video and I am speechless.The shepherds looked awefull in the way they walked.

 

There was a huge long thread about this a month or two ago, I'll see if I can find it. . . .

Ah, here it is!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=791802&page=0&fpart=1

 

oh, I had missed that, thanks for posting Emoore

 

I have never liked crufts, I just got done watching this and it is very sad, there is no way on this earth and I have american showline, that those dogs on that show could do any job they can barley walk, it is so sad and all those other dogs, you breed for betterment of the breed, less health problems, better temp. not what they are doing, makes me sick

 

I watched it a while ago. I was very surprised with the GSDs, I had thought that they didn't have those horribly angled dogs in Europe (being so close to Germany and all), but I guess I was mistaken.

 

Quote: I watched it a while ago. I was very surprised with the GSDs, I had thought that they didn't have those horribly angled dogs in Europe (being so close to Germany and all), but I guess I was mistaken.

I was surprised at the very same thing! For some reason I thought it was only some of the American showlines with those traits....

 

yes this is very sad!

 

There was an online discussion where someone was indignant that nobody mentioned the GSD's age which was 5 or 7!!! Apparently the poster considered this to be an advanced age that excused the wobbling, weak, damaged looking movement! Isn't that scary????

 

That AKC judge should be shot. What an ignorant arrogant ASS!

AKC.....AKA....American Kill Club. This is why Dutch Shepherd breeders and fanciers are fighting tooth and claw to keep Dutchies OUT of the AKC.

 

Joan,

Quote:That AKC judge should be shot.

The BBC special was all 'over the ocean' in the UK. So not the AKC. I'm sure the AKC would never be like that !!!

 

I don't get why people are so quick to blame the AKC. They are just a registry. The standards and ring trends stem from the breeds' parent clubs. If there are issues with the dogs' conformation and what is being put up, then take it up with the parent club or find another venue. I would not be against the AKC adopting some stricter criteria for registration and breedings (though I'm not sure how that would work....), but really its *us* the fanciers that are responsible for anything we don't like or thing is wrong with our breeds. The AKC itself does not breed, register, and sell dogs.

 

Quote:AKC.....AKA....American Kill Club. This is why Dutch Shepherd breeders and fanciers are fighting tooth and claw to keep Dutchies OUT of the AKC.

I wish them luck. Cavaliers, JRTs, Border Collies & Anatolians fought diligently to stay out of the AKC & failed. I'd bet the scenario was similar with many of the other breeds the AKC snatched up these past few years. It is, IMO, an unscrupulous, greedy & seriously predatory organization.

 

This whole video is about The Kennel Club in the UK, not what's going on in America. It seems the UK people like to stick their noeses up and ignore about the health of their dogs' when breeding. I can't remember the guy's name but one of the kennel people were saying that if they were to make health screenings a must before breeding, then people would leave and they would be left with no one. I can't believe they think that. You think people would WANT these health screenings to be a must before breeding. You know, this whole "pedigree dogs exposed" is only about The Kennel Club in Britian, or wherever it is, not about pedigreed dogs in America. It seems our dogs are more healthier because a lot of us over here DO health screenings, in fact a lot of breeders do. And what is this about mutts being healthier?? You think they would have more problems because they get the good AND the bad of BOTH dogs, regardless of breed.
When I watched that video on the shepherd when they were "walking" was that the dogs were PULLING, and HARD. Any GSD could look like those GSDs in the video IF they were PULLING HARD.
It stuns me thought as to why many breeders were angry when asked about health problems and changing them. If breeders are trying to better their breeds, why are so many in the UK mad about getting health screenings done? Most of them seem messed up...
The ending was funny, I didn't know there would be a phone line center for people who were "deeply effected" by the video. Not to sound rude but that was funny...

 

That is sad.

 

I say stop breeding for beauty... breed for purpose...

 

The GSDs were also presented HORRIBLY! Like, just....OMG awful. They weren't the best dogs, no doubt about that, but they could have looked a LOT less horrible if they were presented halfway decently.

One of the dogs paced the entire way around, and I didn't see a single one actually GAIT...I saw them pulling like twits.

 

Quote:It seems the UK people like to stick their noeses up and ignore about the health of their dogs' when breeding.

As a US citizen I wish I believed these problems were limited to the UK & its Kennel Club. I don't think the situation in the USA is a whit better.

Just a few examples...

Pugs & Pekes damage their eyes if they run into a wall b/c their eyes project further from their faces than their (non-existent)snouts.

Dogs from many Golden lines commonly die of cancer at 5 or 6 yrs of age.

A breeder who developed a line of healthy, solid, good looking, long lived Bedlingtons free of copper storage disease was run out of the breed. People deeply resented it & preferred to declare it impossible while continuing with 'business as usual'.

English Bulldogs often can neither breed nor birth naturally (never mind breathe!)

Thyroid problems, seizure disorders, disabling allergies & cancers are rife in many, many breeds of all sizes & types.

And the noble GSD...It's not uncommon to lose much loved pets at 7yrs or even younger to health disorders. Tragically, many owners struggle with problematic, even dangerous temperaments. Other dogs (& their owners) battle life long, debilitating conditions. Way, way, way too many GSDs, including those that on paper are 'well bred', lack health &/or temperament &/or longevity. And this in a much vaunted 'working breed'!!!

This program resonated with so many, including those outside of the UK, precisely b/c it's not just a UK Kennel Club problem. The nitty gritty details in the USA might be different, but the overall sad, mad, bad picture is the same deeply ugly & depressing scene.

 

It is a sad situation indeed. Too many "problems" and very few folks trying to eliminate the problem. Heck, we've spent 50 years trying breed out HD and we are no closer today than 50 years ago. Maybe, just maybe it isn't polygentic but rather poor absorption of needed vitamins and minerals in particular bloodlines. And where did we get all the bloat, ear infections, allergies, etc.? So many questions, such little time ....

 

Doc, the increasing prevalence of health/temperament problems in pb dogs is (IMO) overwhelmingly due to misguided breeding. Many breeders, including many of the so called best, are breeding to produce dogs that win contests & NOT long, lived healthy, robust companions.

I nearly scream when I hear/read breeder discussions that go into tremendous detail & deep analysis over how a particular breeding will benefit shoulder assembly, tail carriage, eye shape, length of loin, ear set, muzzle length & substance. Health & longevity are dealt with in several quick statements that lack depth or analysis. HOWEVER, it's invariably claimed they're the *most important* considerations apart from temperament which gets a bit more discussion than health & longevity, but considerably less than the beauty pageant stuff.

I HUNGER, <u>HUNGER</u> to hear real discussions of how long & how well various branches of the breeding families lived, what health problems they had, when these presented, the heritability of these problems/conditions, specifically HOW a particular breeding will improve or maintain temperament & increase health & longevity.

I'd be wealthy if I had a dime for every time I've heard a breeder murmur, 'the vet assured me it's not genetic...' when in all probabilty there is almost certainly a genetic component, indirect if not direct.

FTR, IMO GSD breeders are neither generally better nor worse than other pb dog breeders. Our dogs by any breed (or none) simply deserve much, much better. To the extent that I believe in sin, I believe it is a grievous sin to breed dogs that are increasingly unhealthy & short lived...to breed dogs incapable of running, jumping, playing...to breed dogs that can't breed naturally, that can barely breathe unassisted. What, in the name of all that's sacred, possesses people???????? How can anyone feel ENTITLED to do such dastardly things to sentient creatures??????

Let me stop. I'm getting wound up.

 

Have a few genuine questions

Are the health issues a sign of poor selection of breeding dogs or that despite the breeder's best efforts to select healthy dogs, there is only so much that can be done with the small gene pool ? Or both ?

Does the gsd have enough genetic variability to produce healthy numbers animals in the future ? How long can the healthy bloodlines stay that way before seeing the effects of inbreeding ? Weren't the pedigree books supposed to stay open anyway to allow infusion occasionally of dogs from sheep herding bloodlines ?

 

I agree RubyTuesday, would like to see other health aspects on top of hips to be also a serious consideration.

I had someone tell me their male gsd who they wanted to breed from one day had allergies, I mentioned this can be genetic- she talked to another trainer who told her to the the lines of- "why would you not breed from him, lots of gsds have that problem"

I like/wish to think GSDs especially as a working animal should be hardy, robust requiring very few trips to the Vet. Looking at some other working breeds (herding, sighthound, sledding) they seem to be tested in their physical abilities to a degree that gsds aren't really-mentally in Schutzhund/Police but physically ? exception would be working herding dogs- Does the lack of physical testing correlate to a lack of awareness of the physical fitness a working breed should possess ?

Just a query- not saying everyone should buy a flock a sheep and have the dog's tending them

but wondering if there is a relation between working breeds that require a high amount of athletic/physical ability and the breeders perhaps being more conscious of health ?

 

Years ago, mother nature weeded out the weaker dogs, especially in the working (i.e. herding) lines. Although many breeders talked about health and temperament, many breed dogs based on what will sell, what is in fashion, what will win shows etc. Couple that with the lack of knowledge and experience in bloodlines/genetics and you end up with a gene pool full of faults. many older breeders spent their entire life "developing" healthy bloodlines. Were they the best looking dogs around - not always. Were they healthy and lived long lives - for the most part.

It's understandable why the general health of many lines have deteriorated to its present point - some breeders have no clue about the science behind breeding. And the lack of understanding in linebreeding, inbreeding and outcrossing has resulted in breeds full of medical and mental challenges.

The truely sad part in this story is the fact that many of the older, healthier bloodlines have been lost forever.

 

ok, first, the AKC is a registering body. It keeps track of who your dog's father and mother (sire and dam) are and so on. It doesn't make value judgements about your dogs. It is the breed clubs, like the German Shepherd dog club, that makes those decisions, supplies the judges, decides what your breed standard will be, what it means and how it will be applied. It is the German Shepherd dog club that certifies and trains judges, and it is those judges who pass judgement on the dogs. Who is the German Shepherd dog club made up of? It is made up of people who breed and show German Shepherd dogs. If the breeders who show under them don't like the judges, they will stop showing under them and if this goes on long enough, shows will stop employing those judges. SO--who is ultimately to blame for the show dogs becoming what they have become? The breeders and showers of German Shepherd show dogs. That is where the buck stops.

Nothing will change until the people who breed and show German Shepherd dogs admit that they have erred and they stop making excuses for unsound dogs like the poster to this forum who said that the fault was that the dogs shown on the video were 'pulling' and that was what made their hindquarters wobble and display their unsoundness. According to this excuse, it was not the dogs who were unsound it was the way they were shown that was at fault. Will this ever happen ? I doubt it. People who breed and show dogs have not only money tied up in them but their egos as well. It is really difficult to persuade a person to hurt their pocketbook. It is nearly impossible to get them to park their ego at the door and be honest about their dogs.

Comment: It is not that these people do not know bloodlines. They know their bloodlines very well and they are able to produce exactly what they want with them a significant amount of the time. The problem is with what they want and what they are willing to do to get it. Dogs do not have to be two years old to show. They do not have to show that they have passing OFA or other health certifications before they can show. They do not have to pass even the most basic temperament test such as a cgc before they hit the ring. Dogs who bite the judge are a commonplace in many breeds. People who show dogs care about what wins and only about what wins. Genetics being what they are, you must breed what wins in the show ring in order to get what wins in the show ring and if that comes with a short life, a poor temperament or ill-health, then those considerations can only be secondary considerations at the best. One may deplore these facts, or deny them altogether, but the show breeder is forever stuck with them.

The saddest part of all this is that it is the dog that suffers. And it is a tragedy that the German Shepherd dog, the very breed that pioneered true service work, the guide dog for the blind, the search for and rescue of soldiers fallen on the field of battle, and of help for the handicapped is now marginalized and now all but gone from the true service dog services. I wish I could hope for better, but nothing I see or hear or read leads me to believe that there is any real will to improve to be found in those people who run the dog clubs who control the dog shows. They are all too busy patting themselves on their own backs for all the championships they have put on their dogs. khawk