Castlemaid, my remarks were over generalized & possily unfair. Note please that I said the trash*bash crud proliferates on these discussions which is not the same as saying they are "nothing but trash & bash". Your rebuttal largely ignores the many, many posts which arbitrarily link oversized GS with dogs that are inherently fat, lazy, clumsy, inept, unhealthy, short lived, prone to HD, weak nerved, excessively soft & incapable of working. Rarely does anyone say, "that if someone likes the large sizes, that is fine. If a breeder wants to breed oversized dogs, that is their perjorative."(Freudian slip there???)

GSDElsa proposed that anyone wanting a 120lb GS should get a giant breed. I like Great Danes. I love Irish Wolfhounds, which I've had & will have again, however I will *still* want dogs with the discernment, biddability, analytical prowess, mental strength & work ethic of the GS. I like em big, but that's not all that I'm looking for.

FTR, my little Djibouti was ~92lbs at a year. He’s probably a bit heavier at 2, but not much, so is he an acceptably ‘large but not giant sized GS’??? (In fact he probably weighs less than some of the SchH GS).

Another thread posted numerous examples of oversized GS working in LE, SAR etc. Khawk has worked many oversized GS, including some that were over 120’. Dogs that actually work provide the ultimate proof.

Originally Posted by GSDElsa
Oh, I agree. But for the people who say the dogs who are outside the breed standard are JUST AS GOOD and SHOULD be included in the breed standard. Fine. Prove it to all of us.

No doubt that people will ALWAYS breed outside of the standard--for any trait. But for those that want to cry about their dog not being included because it's just as good as the others. Show us.

Crying??? Pffft. Opposing misinformation is the only thing I’m interested in doing. Nor do I give a ratz patoot about being included in the standard since I have no interest in conformation showing or SchH. I would like to see breed tests that specifically test for all the qualities I want/need in my GS but until that happens titles, ribbons & awards simply don’t resonate with me. IF I was interested in SchH or showing I’d think differently.

Anne, that is a seriously gorgeous, gorgeous guy! And what an expression! IF he's half the dog he looks to be, he's something very special.

 

Ruby Tuesday, thanks for the kind words but if I am a coauthor on the book it may bomb!! Robin, Robin, Robin, youth has its passion and this is very good. Age has its experience and usually tempers the passion somewhat.(hopefully). Now how could I have disappointed you when I haven't weighed in on this thread with MY thoughts. One of the reasons I haven't weighed in because the topic was about old fashioned German Shepherds and many people were going to give replies who weren't even born when old fashioned GS were around. So to me they can only state read facts or hearsay as they don't have a point of reference.(Kinda like yesterday when a 16 year old kid in our club with two left feet was telling me why his showline DOBE isn't doing long bites like other dogs is because John and I won't move him along fast enough. Dog has horrible nerves. And John looks at me after he left(John has trained dogs for a living for 42 years, I only have 38), and said Don't you love it when a 16 year old is telling you how to train a dog!!!) I know some people get tired of me talking experience, so I've cut back instead of arguing with the sixteen year old.
But as to my statement, if you read Anne's statement, Everything she wrote in that post is accurate to my way of thinking. These are the same things I've experienced as a person who has bred and WORKED dogs for many many years. I honestly believe the conformation ring and the sport world has had a profound negative impact on the breed in the past twenty years. Anne has a profound love for the breed and is doing everything she can to help the breed by posting on this forum and maybe some people will recognize the value of her post and change some of their perspectives on the breed. I have learned a lot from Anne on this board in training and on the breed and in personal conversations. I KNOW she knows what she is talking about!! She just tells it like it is and that is what the breed needs but it has to be from somebody who has bred and worked dogs to be able to know what to breed for. Sch and conformation is no longer conducive to supporting true German Shepherd temperament, and I have said this for a long time on this list and I can't change to what I don't believe. Really read what she wrote and you will see good information...don't worry about the breed is past saving part, as I believe Anne is only trying to convey the dire situation the breed is in. Nobody loves the breed any more than her, you, me, Doc, Chris, RT, Samba, Lies, Fred, Lisa, etc. But some have a wider point of reference in action and experience and I choose to listen to them if it rings true...JMO..peace!

 

I think the main complaint is breeder's who say that they are breeding "what the public wants" Sorry, but John Q Public doesn't KNOW what he wants.

"I want a giant GSD like I remember from childhood" umm you do realize that you were 3 feet tall so EVERYTHING looked big to you, right?? My daughter is very petite; a 5 years old she and Rayden could look eye to eye (her standing, him sitting) So should people breed a dog big enough to look her in the eye because that's what she remembers?? At 9, she isn't a lot taller! So when she finally hits a growth spurt, should we breed 5 foot tall GSDs?

"Bigger is better" SUVs, houses, dogs, meals, french fries, soda.. if a little is good, bigger is better, right??

"My dog at home weighs 130lbs" I doubt it. Rayden weighs 83 lbs. Sure he's got a lot of hair so looks bigger, but not that much! Then they tell me "oh he's the same size as my dog at home and HE weighs at least 140" Then people look at Freya and say "OH, she's just a baby, what's she weigh 30-40lbs?" umm wrong again, she weighs 70. Sure she looks delicate and petite beside Rayden, but she's a GIRL. Not to mention that people are used to seeing dogs that look like beer kegs with legs anyway...

"Oh he's beautiful! I want a dog just like him" minus the exercise, training, protectiveness, of course. I want him to love all people and all dogs. I want a dog that acts like a lab, but looks like a GSD. of course, minus the people that act afraid - I don't want anyone afraid of my dog.

"I like smart dogs" no, John Q. Public likes OBEDIENT dogs. smart dogs can be a pain in the rump for the average owner. They need a job or they WILL make their own. and most likely you won't like it.

About schutzhund not testing for the qualities that you want, what is it that you are looking for? (I'm too lazy to go back and read) I want a GSD that is protective. Loyal. Smart. Obedient. Works well with me. Has an off-switch. All of those are easily tested for with schutzhund. Though it's not the titles themselves, but the knowledge of the person working the dog that I want to hear.
I see ads in the paper all the time for GSDs. "Great pets. beautiful colors" "old fashioned" "giant" "quiet and gentle" All they want is a dollar. I've seen some of the dogs that they are selling. They barely look like shepherds! but, people buy them by the dozens because thats "what the public wants"

The public wants a cheap, no training/housebreaking/work required dog. One who's hair will match the furniture. That magically knows if the person about to knock on the door is Aunt Betty that hasn't visited in 20 years or an annoying vacuum salesman. That loves everyone and every animal. But is scary and will eat bad people. But that everyone else would NEVER be afraid of.
and then, of course, you don't want the dog to herd the cat. or the running screaming kids.

I don't mind people who breed over-sized GSDs that ARE GSDs. People like Doc who are breeding what THEY believe that a GSD should be.

I DO mind people who are breeding huge dogs that mostly look like GSDs. but don't act like them. And the only reason they are doing it is because they sell.

 

It is an interesting situation and will exist in all we do , I guess. In my career, I can tell you that nursing and medical care are not what they were 30 years ago. Some things are great improvements, but many are not. When I talk about old systems and approaches to younger practitioners it is difficult. I think they feel I am an older person talking about something they haven't seen and can't relate to. They think I am not as passionate and must have idealistic memories of the "good 'ol days".

Experience is not everything in and of itself either. It matters very much "who" is having the experience. What is their ability to really synthesize and understand what it is they are seeing and experiencing?

I too know that people like Anne has experience and knowledge that is worth listening to and trying to grasp. I don't know Cliff so much, but the things he speaks of makes me sense his experience is well "experienced" also. But, like my younger professionals at work, I and others are at a distinct experience and understanding challenge through no fault of our own, of course.

The dog pictured in Anne's picture from her friend is a magnificent specimen. The dogs looks are the least of what is so impressive in him , I am sure of it. I know he is not the exception in those dogs either. Can such be preserved? Are there enough breeders and dogs to do so? Are there dogs today that resemble them? Would we know one if we saw it!? Heck, I am almost to the point of thinking if I had some dogs with more of the "older" traits, would there even be anyone around who knew how to work them??

Also, I think it is so that people like Cliff, Anne, Doc and others... they did not grow up with "ScH" dogs,or "show" dogs, or "pet"dogs so much.
They were introduced to German Shepherd Dogs. The split was much less, the variation in the dogs obviously less. I do know that because of this, they really are proponents of the breed and not so much any "lines" or venues.

 

About schutzhund not testing for the qualities that you want, what is it that you are looking for? (I'm too lazy to go back and read) I want a GSD that is protective. Loyal. Smart. Obedient. Works well with me. Has an off-switch. All of those are easily tested for with schutzhund.

I have been working dogs in SchH as the handler and the helper for my entire adult life. I have also witnessed and entered more than one "dog show". So, before anyone gets the idea that I am just "sitting on the sidelines", let me make that point clear.

The above comment is simply not accurate. Maybe it used to be but overall, SchH is not testing protectiveness and a person can pass the protection portion, ( with a very high score), with a dog who doesn't have a protective bone in his body.

As for an "off switch", ( another term I am learning to not like), SchH is not testing that either, not that it should really. What SchH should test is the dog's ability to remain clear under stress and pressure. Many people are claiming this is the case but I am talking about a dog who can work in aggression, mean business in protection but still be able to hear his handler and comply. Asking a dog to stop gripping the big toy and asking him to disengage from a fight are two TOTALLY different things. Mostly the former is what is going on in SchH and that alone is one of the biggest reasons that SchH no longer does what it was intended to do. You can read that a few times if you do not understand what I am saying because it is a very important point.

Also, as I said on this board maybe about 7 years ago now..... one type of dog is being promoted over the other. There is a lack of balance in what dogs are available for breeding in that many are simply too driven, possessive and excitable. Continuing to breed these types of dogs together is going to lead, (and already has), to problems. That being weaker nerves and problems with fear/unprovoked aggression. The more solid dogs with the unshakable nerves are becoming extinct in SchH. Used to be those dogs were held in the highest regard but now they are too slow in obedience, not edgy enough and require real knowledge from the helper to work . That's just too much trouble. People want dogs who will light up with very little provocation. Again, that's not a German Shepherd. GSDs are supposed to be a thinking breed and a breed that can discern a threat from a non-threat. The helper used to be a "bad guy" not a "sparring partner" or the dog's friend.
SchH itself was once a very good test of German Shepherd temperament. Then people got too cleaver with the training because they just had to have a trophy or ribbon. The focus shifted away from testing the dogs to looking at who the trainer is. It is the lack of understanding by the people training in SchH that is leading to the problems. Most do not have a clue what SchH was testing for way back when. It is now a sport to most people and they train with points in mind. It has moved away from it's original purpose in more ways than most people can understand. Most people don't seem to want to understand either and that is a real tragedy.

 

Samba, your last paragraph has a lot of truth in it. I have said a hundred times on this forum, when I started out Show dogs were working dogs were pet dogs in homes!! To me that is what the breed is all about...why would I want to encourage this separation mentality of show lines vs working lines. They are here at present but that does not mean my training regiment or my conformation dog has to conform to these new separations.
The biggest problems with the breed today is nerve strength...as Anne stated most people don't know nerve strength to evaluate it. Conformation dogs and sport dogs don't need nerve strength to be successful anymore. Nerve strength allows the same dog to be able to be a pet, military dog, herding dog, or seeing-eye dog depending on who's hands he went to. Now we have one camp with more drive than nerve, another camp with more pretty than nerve, etc.
I also think that Dainerra wrote a very good post that has a lot of truth in it.
As for oversized German Shepherds, when I was in the military we had 250 dogs at the kennel and some of them were definitely oversized. They were military working dogs and were acceptable to me. Lrt me state MY position on oversized GS. I would breed to an oversized German Shepherd if he possessed the genetics and physical characteristics that I need for my female. I would not breed FOR oversized German Shepherds specifically, not because they are oversized, but because to continually do it would narrow the genepool from a phenotype position and eventually a genotype position. (Pheno being physical expression of dog, and geno being bloodlines of dog) And everyone knows how I feel about narrowing the genepool. JMO

 

Thanks to Anne and Cliff for you knowledge, years of experience and devotion to the German shepherd dogs we use to have. I appreciate both of you sharing your take on today's German shepherd.

I guess if one has never seen or been around the dogs from yester-years, then they really have no clue what we spent most of lives with or the love and appreciation we gained from these special dogs.

 

Dainerra, I live in a bad neighborhood. Too often the nervous nellies who buy guns & shoot at shadows also acquire snarling, snappy unreliable curs. These so called PPD menace the many innocent people (including young children) that live here. In even the worst neighborhoods the vast majority of people are innocent & don't deserve to be at risk from the 'good guys' as well as the baddies. (Note, these ill bred, poorly trained dogs are not to be confused with legit PPD. Please don't think I'm confusing the two)

I want a tough minded, discerning, deep thinking, well reasoned dog. IF s/he's appropriately protective that's a plus but it's imperative the dog have a solid, stable disposition that doesn't spook easily or react without thinking. My dogs must be over all reliable with people, good with other animals & excellent with children.

The GS from my childhood were larger than the medium sized dogs promoted by some SchH enthusiasts. IF it was simply a relativity thing, then Goldens, Labs, Collies would also appear significantly smaller today, but they don't. My parents, uncles & aunts, who were adults when I was a child, would remember GS as medium sized rather than larger, yet they too remember the GS being a large rather than medium sized dog. Larger in & of itself is neither good nor bad. I like 'em big (tall & lean), but that's simply my preference. And as I've also stated, size is not my prime consideration.

There are good, bad & indifferent breeders of all 'types' & lines. Some SchH breeders select for a GS that's for my taste excessively sharp, hyper reactive & not enough of a thinker. Some oversized GS breeders prefer a GS that IMO is too soft, overly dependent & lacks spark. True byb of all types simply produce whatever comes about following essentially random couplings. Judging good breeders by the dogs produced by poor to middling breeders is simply unfair regardless of type.

Samba, that's an excellent post. IMO, GS people should be aware of an increasing need for working dogs of all sizes. MvS looked to the future when developing the breed & envisioned a working dog that would not become an anachronism with the inevitable decline of pastoral canine jobs. It seems that even as the world of working dogs is expanding, the world of working GS is contracting. That simply shouldn't be.

Cliff, I stumbled across some very interesting articles from a Seppala Husky breeder. I was in the middle of a 15" work break & didn't get into it very far but he's clearly an independent thinker. Although the Seppala Huskies are his passion, most of the info is generally applicable to anyone breeding. Have you seen it? I thought of you while perusing the material.

 

Here are some old fashioned German Shepherds ( and a few other breeds) doing some old fashioned training. Some are largish some are smaller.

 

Here are some old fashioned German Shepherds ( and a few other breeds) doing some old fashioned training. Some are largish some are smaller.

YouTube - Schutzhund in Germany 1936

I think I was at that taping .....

 

they look very diff. More like a doberman face.........more thin
maybe thats just me.....?

 

I love my big ass GSD!!!!!!!
27 1/2 inches.

 

From Koos Hassing:

"Some dogs fight very hard with the helper due to nervousness and some due to dominance. For some judges it is very hard to see the difference, because they have not enough knowledge to see it. In the protection phase, how many judges can see that the dog is confronting the helper or begging for the sleeve? And than dogs get high points, use for breeding and produce worse dogs. On this way of judging they kill the working abilities."

CanineSquad - Koos Hassing

Aaargh, even the judges don't see it sometimes. How is a lesser skilled person to know?

 

Originally Posted by Vandal
SchH people have allowed Malionois trainers to tell them how to train a GSD.

Anne, could you elaborate on this a bit. Specifically, where is the error in that & how should the training approaches/goals differ?

 

All breeds are different. There 'should' be a more distinct difference in the temperament of a Mal and the temperament of a GSD. That difference requires different training methods. The GSD is now swinging towards Mals in temperament. Certainly dogs have been selected to fit the training methods. Used to be people who trained German Shepherds were the ones people looked to for training advice and to learn to read a GSD. Now, maybe because of the success they have had in trials, people look to Mal trainers. That is not , IMO, what the breed needs. We need more people who really understand GSDs to be teaching people about GERMAN SHEPHERDS. More focus in understanding the breed and what it is SUPPOSED to be would go a long way to improve things. Perhaps people would start to understand that a GSD was never intended to look like a Mal does in SchH and it is OK. Please don't tell me these Mal trainers understand GSDs. You have to work with them consistently to really understand and when you do that, you are constantly reminded of things you may have forgotten. This is not an insult to Mal trainers, it is just a fact that they are "experts" on their breed, not GSDs.

Also, in protection, Mals are motivated differently that GSDs. They have more drive as a general rule and are easier to bring into drive. An easier dog to reach overall. A 'good" GSD needs more and the work needs to be capable of reaching " inside" the dog in order to really see who that dog is. Working GSDs on the "surface" is what happens now. We don't see the same power and aggression in the dogs because very few helpers are capable of bringing it out and very few handlers are capable of seeing that their dog is not really bringing all he has to the work.

GSDs are a thinking breed. They were always intended to be a breed that thinks first before they act. It takes a certain kind of helper, with very good knowledge of the breed, to work with that kind of dog. The same work that might be totally appropriate for a Malinois leaves the GSD looking like a lesser dog . The better GSDs need a "reason" to work in protection. As a breed known for it's ability to differentiate between a threat and a non-threat, they do need to see a "bad guy" vs just someone to chase. People maybe don't know why but when they see their dog worked the right way, they do notice. GSDs look totally different when the helper is playing the role and what is inside that dog is brought out. That is when you see the real temperament of a GSD and that is when people really start to have fun training.
Yesterday the helper I am training was able to see the difference when he worked my dog the "right " way. The bark, the grip, the fight all came out when he figured out how to present the right challenge to the dog. A GSD has to see that challenge coming from the helper or they will just kind of fall asleep. My fear is that many of the really good dogs are being discarded because they never see this kind of work. When you work a good GSD the wrong way, they do not look good at all. People will claim they just "don't have it". Usually, it is just a little deeper in the dog than inexperienced helpers can reach. We see this quite a bit in the way a GSD barks. That is the first indicator that the work is not appropriate for the dog. People want to call it a prey bark but there is more to it than that. When the helper does not tap into what a GSD was intended to work with, it leaves the dog looking weak. I think this is probably a "you have to see what I am saying" kind of thing. Most people now think the kind of training I am talking about means their dog will be "reactive". The way people have misunderstood that concept has led to huge numbers of BORED GSDs who are never worked at the right drive level.

Years ago, the two people I trained with went over to Germany to train with Helmut. My friend has a video of Helmut "talking" to our helper after he worked Helmut's Bundessieger. He is holding up his little finger and pointing to the tip of it with his other hand. He says, "this is how much you mean to my dog". His point was that our helper didn't reach the dog in the slightest. He was no challenge , no opponent, basically a joke to the dog. I see people like our helper was then just about everywhere now. They may be athletes but they do not bring the right attitude to the helper work.

 

when people talk about old fashion i think of King Shepherds and the very big Shiloh Shepherds.

 

Samba, In regards to your comment from Koos...oldtimers refer to dogs that bite and are just holding on as "Finding comfort in the sleeve"". They will grip and hold on for dear life. Often they will grip very hard and many handlers and even trainers think this is a very hard dog. WRONG! Dog shows no dominance of his situation. Dog is really weak nervewise, but has the prey drive to give the good bite and impression of strength. When that dog has to release and sit underneath the bad guy awaiting the next command you will see signs of the unsureness. These are the type of things that Sch used to test for and people could see the dogs that were good for owning and the ones that were good for breeding. There is a difference, yet today you ee many of these dogs in Sch and then we wonder why the protection part of the Seiger show is so pitiful. Because people are breeding these dogs even though their strength of character is suspect.

 

As an addendum to the above post tying in with this topic. The issue isn't the dog biting as some of you will focus on that don't do protection work, the "issue" is the dogs unsureness when placed in a stressful situation of releasing the sleeve. This inability to handle stress in CORRUTIBLE. Back in the day the breed was known for being "INCORRUPTIBLE". If you have a dog of ninety-five pounds that is incorruptible, i will take that any day over a standard size dog that is corruptible in temp. But alas, many of the oversized dogs I see today are not incorruptible and if they are oversized must be held to the same standard of mental acuity to be worthy of the breed. This doesn't have to manifest itself in Sch training, but it must manifest itself in protective instincts that are present when needed...or else it would be a golden with ears that stand erect. And some form of training with the dog is needed to determine the ability to handle stress. , when there is no stress everyone can function...but I have never lived in a world with no stress, so the need for these traits in this breed.

 

Raziel
"I love my big ass GSD!!!!!!!
27 1/2 inches."

I love mine too! I think I am measuring correctly
Mine is 27 inches.

He just turned a year old. Will he continue to grow or is that it?

 

The more I come back to this thread, the more I'm becoming certain that my next dog will be another Malinois.

 

You know, I feel so fortunate to be a rescue foster. If I want a big dog, I can adopt a big dog. If I want one that's got a stable temperament and loves kids, we're up to our ears in those. If I want one that's a little overly suspicious of strangers and barks a lot I can get one. I can have a black, a white, a sable, a longhair, oversized or undersized. . . all without worrying that I'm supporting a non-reputable breeder or jeapordizing the breed.

 

Well, yes, as Cliff pointed out, there are dogs to own and there are dogs to breed. The rub is in the methods utilized to determine the later.

I am digesting what Anne and Cliff have written and am trying to find examples, retrieve from memory of seeing work and think of how the correct work and testing plays out.

I have experienced the work where the helper is mostly a delivery system. A moving body to create prey delivery and also reward with sleeve delivery system. The importance of the helper themselves ever so diminished. Also, thinking about the malinois wearing their heart on their sleeve so to speak and how easy to activate. Also, seeing easily activated German Shepherds but what is activated in them is not necessarily a balance of drives and often little serious fight coming from confident power. I am also thinking of some helpers not knowing exactly what to do with a more serious thinking dog and one that doesn't have its trigger on the surface.

What is really the old fashioned GSD that is in danger of being MIA is not straight backs and large size.....

 

I tried to pick you out in the crowd! I see one old fashioned tradition remains...beer after training.

 

I think "old fashion" is much more than size and weight - although others in here has/will accuse me otherwise. I miss the "old fashion" German shepherd that exhibited a different mentality than we see today. If you haven't seen it, experienced it, or touched it, it is almost impossible to put into words.

Beer? After training? With German shepherds? Surely not ... LOL

 

Wow back then the helpers really got into it with the handlers! Those did not look like "pretend" shoves.

 

LOL True attack on the handler! I saw the one fellow really struggling to get back up.

 

I stagger like that all the time. My swagger turn into stagger. It's hail getting old. LOL