At this point, I would say the "burden of proof" lays on the fans of the "huge" GSD. If people think 120lb dogs can routinely be competitive and excel at agility, Schutzhund, SAR, and other GSD "jobs", then bring them out there and compete them. The great thing about sports like agility and jobs such as SAR is that talent trumps looks.

I mean, really, just PROVE to people that these dogs are as athetic and versitile as those within the breed standard.

I will say that the occasional 100lb male isn't so much the issue--it's those ones that start pushing 110, 120 lbs on a routine basis that are out of control. That people strive to that is a mystery to me.

I did a home check a few weeks ago for a family that had GSDs. We walked into the house and were greeted my a monstrosity and we thought HAD to be a 13 year old--it was obviously difficult for the dog to get around. I commented on what a "big boy" he was. The owners proudly declared "he's 130 pounds. But he's nothing compared to his 'brother'. He's 140. Now THAT'S a dog." And we found out he was only 7.

Come on! Show me how that dog could get around a sport course.

 

That breedworthiness proof s not required in this country is not necessarily a good thing.

People are not at all required to breed dogs according to standard here. I can't think of anyway that this lax approach has been a real good idea.

 

That breedworthiness proof s not required in this country is not necessarily a good thing.

People are not at all required to breed dogs according to standard here. I can't think of anyway that this lax approach has been a real good idea.

Oh, I agree. But for the people who say the dogs who are outside the breed standard are JUST AS GOOD and SHOULD be included in the breed standard. Fine. Prove it to all of us.

No doubt that people will ALWAYS breed outside of the standard--for any trait. But for those that want to cry about their dog not being included because it's just as good as the others. Show us.

 

I do not "trash talk" other breeders....not my personality. But I do have a problem with people who constantly belittle others.
People will always agree to disagree...it is the human way.
Facts will always lie in the "burden of proof" for any worthwhile belief.....and for many "issues" within this breed, ...it is proven.
We need to be more selective in breeding practises as a whole, and continue to strive to protect this breeds attributes.
Large dogs are not the only problem, there are many problems within this breed today..The problem lies when our goals are limited, and we breed for an extreme of any kind.....omitting the founding basics of the breed. (health, temperament & structure).
One can never "read enough" or even "do enough"...to be ignorant in thinking that they need not do better......we ALL need to do better.

 

It would be so much easier if there was no such thing as fad animals designer "dogs" such as teacup dogs and oversized large breeds, I could be wrong but weren't all dogs bred for a job and shouldn't they be able to still do that job? I agree with robinheurta health, temperament and structure!
Oh i dont know could rant on but just seems to me that there a lot of people out there that want extremes and people that are willing to supply whatever the costs to the animal.

 

Yes, there are and have been so from the beginnings of the breed! After my research, I can say that their approach is truly old fashioned. Even in the founders lifetime such extremity breeding for money was a problem.

 

Samba gets it right, it has always been this way and it probably always will be. However, showing and "competing:" has indeed led to problems and pretending it hasn't is just not honest. It was not to many years back,( two maybe), the German Show males were easily over 70 cms and being awarded Vs and VAs when the people in charge of the measurements got "creative". I have stood in the shadow of those dogs with my little working line dog......who was 63.5 cms. The dogs ahead of us were easily 3 to 4 inches taller at the wither but the judge didn't seem to notice. My male, ( who could never be mistaken for a female), was criticized for lack of secondary sex characteristics instead. lol. The conformation of the show line dogs is bordering on perverse.
SchH competition is changing the breed for the worse as well. I am talking temperament here.
As for health I actually think in some regards, it has improved while of course in others it is worse. I do hear more about stomach problems and it does make me wonder where that is coming from. It was said that some of the lines coming thru Canto had these issues. Working lines have him in their pedigrees as well and of course, you can't just blame one dog. It does seem that the American lines have separate issues concerning health, like Mega E and things of that nature. So, of course, it is related to bloodlines. That is a no brainer. You have to realize when you concentrate on producing dogs from certain lines you will have a higher chance of seeing these things.
One last comment. IMO, the GSD has always had issues with their immune system. The problems we see most are usually auto-immune. I can't say it is any different than years ago. I saw dogs with health issues way back when and many of those dogs were from some of the very best bloodlines. Trying to say that health is related to showing or competing would be a stretch I think. It is about breeders ignoring it because they like something else about the dog, be it size or structure or even temperament. However, if you eliminated every bloodline that ever produced a problem, there would be no more GSDs. That's just the facts.

Lets get real here. There are problems and it is not being caused from one breeder who likes big dogs. Those people have always been there and they will always be here, unless of course, the AR groups have their way with all of us.

 

Anne,
I can relate to your "size" issue within the German Show-line dogs.
My "best friend" is truly 65cm in height.....and when he was being shown and trialed (back in the day/ 7-10 yrs ago)...he looked smaller than many dogs in the ring.
He was smaller in size and larger in temperament!
Being over-sized is not the most prolific fault.....it can be a "small" fault, if considered as a whole....you need to weigh your (checks & balances).
If ALL other attributes are there.....I wouldn't limit that specific breeding because of it.
Our breeds health issues have always been an issue.
German Show lines have gone to the extreme of angulation and lack of nerves.....the German Working lines have also gone to the extreme of insufficient structure and immense drives.
However; in the past few years....I have seen a great deal of change being made on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Show dogs being made to prove themselves to a higher temperament standard....and Working line dogs, being bred with beautiful sound structure. It is happening because more people are "trying" to preserve the breed.
People...(breeders & owners alike) are requiring more from our dogs....and other breeders....at least, I would like to think so.

 

Well, I have an issue with how LONG it took for people to see the problems. Now that things are about as bad as they can get, they think it's time to adjust. How they are chosing to adjust will , IMO, only make matters worse.
Not only did people ignore the problems, they made excuses for them. I personally , have been commenting on the way things are for the last ten years. Am I some kind of a psychic? No, anyone who WANTED to see, would have been able to understand where things were heading. Plain and simple, people ignored all of it because their was fame and money to be made.

As for structure in the working lines, they are starting to look like the modern show line dog and THAT is not correct IMO. The drives are overriding the dog's ability to think as well . Also, the show dogs are far from fixed as far as temperament. I remember people claiming how much better things were about five years ago and it has continued to decline to a point that I personally find dangerous for all breeders. As I said in the "fat lady" thread, the looks and the temperament displayed at the Sieger Shows will be used by the AR groups to prove their point. It has already started with the UK documentary.
As for SchH, it has become about style and points and only last year did they talk about changing things back to the way it used to be. Well, it just might be too late. Dogs with the nerve strength to restore the working lines are becoming exceptionally hard to find. People who understand good nerves, ( or GSD temperament for that matter), are almost extinct. SchH people have allowed Malionois trainers to tell them how to train a GSD. PFFFFFFT. The lack of understanding about what a GSD was intended to be and how to work with those qualities is contributing to the further demise of the breed's temperament.

You have both sides now trying to combine two problems. How anyone thinks that is going to fix this mess is beyond me. Unfortunately, many people involved in both showing and SchH never saw GSDs with the right temperament. Now we have GSDs who resemble circus animals in the obedience portion and haven't an once of a protective instinct in protection. Show people who refuse to understand that the structure they promote is simply hideous. Sorry, that is my take and will remain the way I see things. The extremes continue and combining the two will only make things much worse.

 

... haven't an once of a protective instinct in protection.

I think like a lot of people are afraid of the protective instinct and believe that this trait has to be exterminated. How often even on on this board it's labeled 'thyroid problem' or 'fear aggression' right away and instead of working with it everyone comes up with ideas how to suppress it. Being called 'Golden retriever of German shepherds' is taken as a compliment for a dog ...

 

Unfortunately, in the "knowing" part of me, I sense Anne is quite right. She is not the only one saying such though. Myself not around long enough to have seen what was as compared to what is. That situation will only become more common.

It may be too late. I wouldn't know.

This morning I was just saying thank goodness I found this Catahoula dog. It is a fine thing to work with a breed still so close to its working roots without having suffered the vagaries of breeding influenced by show or sport competition. When I am around him, it really makes me think about what turns the German Shepherd breed has taken over the last few decades.

It's the fat lady thing again. Have we come to the last verse?

 

Yes, now the protective instinct has been added to the long list of health problems . lol. It's so sad it is amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS45_8JFG_s

Here is a nice video of some modern show line dogs. I will be happy to embed it if someone would tell me how. These are all progeny of the 2007 German Sieger.
Big or small, "old fashioned" looks better with each passing year. The title of the song playing is QUITE appropriate. "Fix You"....

BTW, for those in this thread confused about sloped backs etc. This video is an EXCELLENT example of what is causing it. Look at the rear leg on just about every dog in this video. The rear leg is much longer than most normal looking GSDs. The bottom of the stifle, ( curve in the rear leg), runs parallel to the ground for about 2 to 3 inches. It is not supposed to do that. That is a big contributor to the "slope" you are talking about but since that didn't seem to do enough for these breeders, we now have the rather significant drop off right in the middle of the back.
This video I find to be exceptionally sad.

 

I couldn't get the video to open. Perhaps that's best.

 

Try again? Oh, and not the Sieger...VA 2

 

I don't know nothin 'bout nothin, but I can say of all the dogs I have been around, from WFT as a small child on up to the dogs we had when our boys were young and to now, the 3 GSDs we have had ALL had sensitive stomachs. Thank God none of the things I read about , but sensitive none the less.

Vandal, your posts are spot on in my opinion.

 

It is just as I suspected. The WGSL have selected for the longer femur bone resulting in a large bend of stifle and a femur that is parallel to the ground when stacked. They will now have the coveted transmission that the ASL have enjoyed for years. There is the particular and peculiar shape of the back that they can call all their own though.

 

Those poor dogs!! They look terrible. It looks like the next thing they are going to do is walk on their hind legs

 

leisje - great pics i love the action shots!!

 

I believe the pendulum will swing far out before it comes back, if getting back is possible. Seems to be the way things go.

 

Originally Posted by Liesje
Health....I am interested in this, mainly how do we even compare? Was EPI, SIBO, bad allergies, Mega-E diagnosed 60+ years ago? It seems even now many of these major problems are complicated to diagnose and treat.

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday
Lies, some older books analyzed specific dogs & provided detailed commentary regarding health, temperament & conformation issues seen in the offspring. Some were known to throw digestive problems. Even without a medical diagnosis, such dogs should have been bred with particular care, if at all. Unfortunately breeding became all about winning for the sake of winning regardless of the cost to the dogs themselves. *sigh*A breeder who's extraordinarily careful about all the wrong things will reap only grief.

Originally Posted by Liesje
And I think the point that several people have made is that health is not the ONLY priority when it comes to breeding, at least not for many breeders. I personally would rather have a dog with hip dysplasia than one with a poor temperament. I really don't see anything in your statement that conflicts with how good breeders are still breeding. Yes, there are breeders who breed unhealthy dogs that are known to throw unhealthy dogs, but that doesn't give us the right to make blanket assumptions that show line people only care about shows or working line people only care about Schutzhund. Your statement about breeding for the sake of winning may not even apply to the majority of the breeders, maybe only the large commercial kennels that earn the most show success and PR, but they do not represent me or my dogs or you or your dogs.

My response to your post was to provide historic information that indicates digestive disorders have been present in the breed for many years. It wasn’t intended as an argument. Personally, when I speak of a ‘healthy’ dog I mean physically robust, constitutionally sound & mentally/emotionally strong & stable. I don’t consider a dog with a poor temperament to be ‘healthy’ although one could qualify the dog as physically healthy.

You are correct that the latter part of my statement was too general. I was speaking specifically of the AKC conformation circus. While I realize there are exceptionally good AKC show breeders, what I’ve seen suggests they’re overwhelmingly the exception to the rule. GS, IMO, are a notable example of this, but there are many other breeds it applies to as well.

I believe that breeders of all *types* of GS, whether SchH, companion, SL or WL, err here & there in their emphasis & focus, but far too many AKC show breeders undermine strength, ability & natural conformation in the quest to make (or match) the next *hot* thing.

 

Forty-one pages and I haven't said a peep!!! Woowee!! I did it for all my haters out there...LOL.
The only thing I will say is that I agree with EVERYTHING that ANNE,(Vandal), said and I also concur with her assessment of the breed at this point....peace!

 

Originally Posted by robinhuerta
This thread started because of opinions on breeding "specifically for over-sized, old fashioned looking"?? GSD......

Actually, it was started to bash a specific breeder yet again, but the link to that breeder was (in accordance with board regs) removed this time. I like the breeders dogs & happily live with two of them. Despite that, I’ve never requested the threads bashing her be edited or removed. IMO, a decent breeder can stand the heat. She’s not perfect, but she has successfully bred healthy, sound, long lived GS with terrific temperaments for decades.

Hello, Cliff...I haven't gotten as far as that yet. I learn a great deal from Anne. Whether I agree with her or not, I always enjoy her posts, so that's something to look forward to. I still think you, Anne & Khawk should collaborate on a book. What if I promised to buy a hundred copies(or at least a dozen)???

 

Originally Posted by Chris Wild
Much of it is from discussions on the same or similar topics in the past, claiming that working lines or "SchH dogs" can't be pets, etc.... And it is very often touted on the websites of those breeding the "old fashioned" and "pet line" type dogs. Sometimes they outright state it, but almost always there is some reference to something along the lines of "our dogs don't do SchH/bite people/attack" or "our dogs aren't crazy and high drive" but "unlike those dogs they make great pets". The implications there being obvious; that working lines/SchH dogs are crazy, unsuited to family life, etc...

But some specific examples from this thread (and I can't believe I just wasted a half hour of my life reading through 30+ pages to pull them out):

That GSDs can no longer work (with the implication that attempts to preserve such by those who focus on it are futile), and completely ignoring 2 key facts. One, that many organizations still do consider the GSD as the breed of choice. Two, that there are many, many reasons that have caused some organizations to move away from the GSD that have absolutely nothing to do with GSD working ability. The comments about Mals in military work, which are not entirely true, and comparing the GSD to a Mal, for anyone who knows squat about Mals, indicates GSDs aren't crazy enough.

Chris, thanks for your response. IMO, you’re being more than a little unfair. You originally stated,
According to various comments in this thread, the "SchH breeder":
Is obsessed with size and only wants small dogs.
His dogs can't be family companions.
His dogs aren't good with kids.
His dogs will eat cats, small dogs, livestock or anything else that moves.
His dogs will knock down Granny.

One side claims these dogs are crazy nutjobs, can't live in the house, can't be companions, and are a danger to every living creature (especially kids, cats and Grannies).

Only Doc made a statement here that could be construed as ‘anti SchH dog’ but he also stated here (& elsewhere) that he admires your dogs so I think it’s obvious that wasn’t his intent. Anti-SchH, anti-WL statements made on the board are usually made by new members woefully inexperienced with GS in general, & SchH or WL in particular. To prove a case with their statements is (IMO) making a weak case. Ditto using statements made on some breeders' web sites, some of which are inferences rather than outright remarks. There are numerous web sites for WL breeders which claim only their GS is the *true* GS & make ridiculous & erroneous remarks about companion lines, over sized GS or SL GS. In fact there are numerous erroneous remarks in this thread that again raise the tired & inaccurate assumptions that oversized GS are unhealthy, short lived, especially prone to HD, can’t & don’t work.

The view that SchH GS can’t work is surely a minority view. I don’t believe they’re the only GS capable of working. In some venues, they might not even be the best GS for the task, but I don’t think statements from 1 or 2 members indicate a general dissing of the SchH GS.

Originally Posted by Chris Wild
And the accusation that "SchH breeders" are the ones (and apparently the only ones) who obsess about size. Something completely untrue, and you don't have to take my word for it just look at the dogs and lines those folks have and you will see far more variance in size than in any other subset of the breed and any other competition venue.

IMO, clearly SchH (& to a lesser extent SL) enthusiasts, *are * obsessed with over sized GS. Also white GS & until very recently LC GS. I’ve yet to see any of the many members who prefer oversized GS (or LC or WGS) starting threads to slam & spread misinformation on those GS they don’t prefer.

In this thread it seems that attitudes are softening just a bit, but is that genuinely the case, or have some heavily favored breeders thrown too many outsized pups for it to be otherwise?

 

I have not seen outsized dogs rejected out of hand by working dog folks. They are the first to accept variation in favor of work ethic. The show folks obviously don't mind an over sized dog as I think they may finally have been required to wicket as the dogs were getting so large.

But I think this is a somewhat different thing than the type of grossly outsize breedings for generations for what appears very much a market niche.

Of course there can be criticism of types of show breedings and working breedings. It is not necessarily a bad thing or everyone will just drink their respective koolaide and sit happily in their world with their fellow groupies and the breed be darned.

 

Samba, there's is a huge difference b/w reasoned disagreement & the bash&trash crud that proliferates in these threads. Criticism is one thing. All breeds (IMO) benefit from impassioned discussions about what is best or right for the breed. The GS needs such discussions as much as most breeds. However, piling on with misinformation, inaccuracies, innuendo & gross generalizations is not at all the same thing.

Oversized dogs are outside the standard. Period. They are not necessarily fat, lazy, clumsy, inept, unhealthy, short lived, prone to HD, weak nerved, excessively soft or incapable of working. Nor were they always outside the standard.

For numerous reasons, both practical & aesthetic, many people including myself, find these GS attractive & desirable. Trashing&Bashing doesn't change that. Most members who prefer the oversized GS either fade away to friendlier corners of the board or all too often leave entirely. Now that's sad & (IMO) accomplishes very little. Perhaps others disagree.

 

For numerous reasons, both practical & aesthetic, many people including myself, find these GS attractive & desirable. Trashing&Bashing doesn't change that. Most members who prefer the oversized GS either fade away to friendlier corners of the board or all too often leave entirely. Now that's sad & (IMO) accomplishes very little. Perhaps others disagree.

I don't agree that these discussions are nothing but trash and bash. Many people have said over and over and over, that if someone likes the large sizes, that is fine. If a breeder wants to breed oversized dogs, that is their perjorative. The issues that are at the forefront, is the claim by some breeders that the oversized dogs are "old fashioned" (worthy of discussion), the unsubstantiated claims by many breeders of oversized dogs for working ability (if a breeder does breed oversized dogs and claims working ability and can subtantiate their claim other than "I know my dogs", that is fine), and the focus on size and weight as the main selling point (like those are the things that matter the most?).

And I doubt that many people know which particular breeder's site started the thread. I don't think it matters as there are a zillion breeders of oversized GSDs out there if you do a google search, and all the sites are pretty similar in pictures, breeding philosophy, and content.

And if someone posts that in their view, the oversized, and often overweight dogs is not what they feel a GSD should look like - (and I'm not saying that the breeders and owners who own breed and own these dogs have overweight dogs, but there are many examples of oversized dogs all over the 'net that are clearly overweight) - then they are bashing for stating the obvious.

I mean, I have a Sable Working line dog, with plenty of working drives, no issues taking a sleeve (haha, I think he surprised the helper yesterday by how hard he hit! -). My dog is what I believe the epitome of a GSD should be. That is what I wanted, that is what I am happy with. So if someone posted:
"I don't like working line dogs. I don't like the Sables especially, they look weird. In my opinion, a GSD should be a classic Black and Tan, and should be easy enough to manage and excercise to make a good pet for the average family, and should never ever even think of grabbing a person's arm, even if they are wearing a bite sleeve". I'd say fine, I understand, I don't agree, but I am sure that you can find a good GSD that will have the lower drive levels that you are comfortable with, and be what you would like and feel is correct. I would not feel offended, I would not feel that I, as the owner of a Sable working line is being bashed. I would not feel that the breeder of my dog, whom I hold in high esteem is being belittled for breeding goals that this person feels is producing GSDs that they just "don't agree with" .

Yet everytime such a discussion comes up about the oversized dogs, those that have a different view of how GSDs should look and be are bashing and slinging crud. That I find offensive. I find the language and the accusations offensive, belicose and inflamatory.

To be fair, there may be some posts that are bashing - but in general, this whole thread has been a good back-and-forth between different camps, and to dismiss the whole discussion, the whole thread as nothing but crud and bashing of a specific breeder (which it isn't), is not a fair.

 

I have a friend who has been breeding for almost 50 years now. She likes her dogs larger and these are some of the best German Shepherds I have ever seen. More agile than most smaller GSDs, and they basically walk upright....always on their rear legs when in their runs and walking with their front paws on the fencing. Not only are they great looking dogs, they work better than almost all of the dogs I see nowadays. These are some serious and no nonsense dogs, true GSDs in every sense. Older bloodlines , so, yeah, "Old Fashioned".
Here is one of her males.

 

If one only complains and does nothing.....then they are at as much fault, as the ones that continue to create the problems within the breed.
The dogs of yesterday are gone.....the dogs of today need our help....so the dogs of tomorrow can be better.
The complaints and excuses have gotten old.....it must be easier for some to just stand on the side and do nothing. It's easier to point fingers and shake fists....
We can't "fix" yesterday.
If one believes that this breed has become so awful & hopeless....then why not find another breed.?
Hopefully, there will be some....that share the passion, to continue & fight.
These discussions seem to always end the same way.....(show people ruined the breed, working folks wrecked the breed, others created the health problems, & people that believe in the standard, are killing the breed)......I guess? those who do nothing are "saving" the breed??.........whatever helps you feel better....pretty hypocritical sounding to me.
As mentioned before.......I'll continue to ruin the breed my way....and others can ruin it their way....
You may have your topic back,.. what an enjoyable (stick poking, finger pointing, blame basing, excuse making) time we all shared!

Cliff....first time, you've actually disappointed me....