[carmspack]

throughout history monasteries made money!

they sold honey, they made bread, mead, wines, bitters and beers, cheese , rented land , rented mills , were scribes . They made money, and they held power .

the New Skete's sold dog training and sold dogs . That was their financial liveliehood .

They were not expert . They were competitive , and had squabbles and wanted super stars . Job Michael Evans . The Nuns and the Monks had their differences . They were human .

The "breeding program" was pretty much set up by AKC
GSDCofA judge Helen "Scootie" Sherlock, Caralon GSD.

The fame, in my opinion, was largely fantastic marketing.

The dogs I saw , and I did see many , were not good specimens, NOT healthy , not long lived, not particularly gifted -- falling short of the promise.

I can't erase an image in the original book where the dogs are exercised by running behind a truck , handlers sitting on the dropped tail gate, breathing in all that exhaust (before emissions controls even). At least bike the dogs .

 

[Castlemaid]

I can't erase an image in the original book where the dogs are exercised by running behind a truck , handlers sitting on the dropped tail gate, breathing in all that exhaust (before emissions controls even).

That is one picture from the book that has stayed with me - it upset me too. I couldn't believe the book was recommending and condoning exercising your dog by letting it run behind a truck. All the pics of the monks in the book, many looked like younger, healthy men - couldn't they run or play or bike with the dogs to condition them?

I've read the book years ago, when the jowl grabbing and shaking and the alpha roll was recommended -

If the philosophy of making your dog your best friend was new to people reading it, and it helped them develop their relationship with their dog, then the book has been valuable in that sense. It did have a huge impact on dog ownership in general - for me there was not earth-shattering new ideas or philosophies that changed the way I viewed my relationship with my dog.

 

[carmspack]

had a friend who stayed with them for a week , this was in the early days .
her comments were , nothing special , and that the dogs seemed inhibited , cowed .

you can see it in the book. page 144 , teaching a recall . One dog is crouched , dogs have heads turned not looking at their handlers. The dogs all have this touch of worry about them , ears back, tails tight .
The pup page 113 being helped along to recall by reeling in the tether looks totally unenthused, not impressed -- pud dunk pud dunk , reluctant. A pup should fly in for attention , especially when the target is a young boy.

Another image, if you remember is page 153 , one of the monks straddled behind a mature golden retriever . The caption below the picture says "another method of teaching the down is to lift both front legs and lean over and down the dog, easing it into the down"

This approach was recommended for "some larger breed (GSD, Great Danes, St.Bernards) might need even more body contact and pressure to insure a smooth down. For these breeds, or for dogs who fight the first method, try a slightly modified approach as follows: lift both front legs together, with your hands just below the dogs elbows, and lower the dogs front. At the same time , lean over and into the dog, putting your left knee on the dogs on the dogs back.
The first few times you may find this movement uncoordinated , but with repetition it will become smoother. Since your face will be quite close to the dog's , you can reassure the dog easily and even use your chin to help lower the dog's head.

The motion is equivalent of falling on top of the dog, without actually doing so " ending quote taken from page 152

YIKES ----- so many things patently wrong ---- the dog is resigned OR will bite you , or struggle and resent you . The dog may be anticipating an alpha roll. A woman , petite , most likely will tackle land on top of the dog . And where is all the "connection" "relationship" ???

I remember my daughter who was probably 5 or so at the time looking at the book and asking me "what is that man doing with the dog" --

I got the book first addition , always excited to add to my extensive library -- read it and was agitated by the "stuff" .
Then shortly after my friend did the week long visit.

oh well I did get a book , another copy , with a written message and autograph .

 

[holland]

Funny I don't remember any of that stuff in the book- what I found helpful was there schedule for housebreaking a puppy-think its helpful to have a schedule-guess an book is what you take from it though

 

[NancyJ]

did you have original version?

 

[carmspack]

I am quoting those excerpts directly out of the book !

The first edition came out, I added it to my resource library , I read it , read portions of it to "training" friend (no email or computers in those years!) discussed.

My thought was that there was going to be a lot of bad training that needed to be undone, and there was.

 

[NancyJ]

I met one of the dogs they had bred in the mid 80s. Nervy. Large.

 

[carmspack]

exactly Nancy. Large and long bodied . Soft backs . Soft ligaments and muscle tone . And yes nervy dogs . More than one I met had car sickness and sound sensitivity - thunder storms. Startle .
I met more than a few because they were in the neighbourhood , or in my husbands teachers' network . I saw them when they came asking about an evaluation and could I recommend a good trainer for them.
They loved their dogs but I don't know of anyone that expressed an interest in getting another from them.

In the beginning I asked , have you contacted the breeder , see how they can help you. Seems there was a consensus of disinterest , no calls or letters returned , no help extended. I was put off by the "merchandise" attitude - you've bought your dog , good luck . Reputations are made and they have to be kept. I think there was an interest in the 70's and 80's still with communal living -- and somehow they became marketable.

I can't find it for the life of me but I seem to recall an alternate story that Job Evans had about the monastery and the first dog Kyr , mentioned as the mascot and inspiration for the breeding program.

Kyr was supposed to have been a guide-dog failure , the Monks took him in. I think in one book or magazine Job had said that Kyr was with them for a short while - he disappeared . I took that to mean that he ran away ? In another account Kyr is the monastery companion. UNLESS there was a Kyr one and a Kyr two. Or I am wrong on this altogether .

 

[carmspack]

just to add , this was my experience, my opinion . Others might have quite different experience and opinion. If so , good .

 

[Blitzkrieg1]

Its all abput your goals. I train for sport now what once worked for me to achieve a well behaved pet is no longer sufficient.
I dont really care to get into the whole alpha argument but I will say this. Any social grouping of animals or people that works towards a common goal be it a wolf pack, herd of horses or a team working on tech development have a member or members that are dominant or leaders. For some its natural for others its a struggle. What works for one person wont work for all.

I have never had to use an alpha roll on my gsd its not necessary. I have used it on another dog I own who truly believes he is my number two and can bully the other dogs and people in the house..he is also 8lbs and fears nothing..lol. One day I will find a gsd with his heart and confidence.

Different things work for different dogs and people regardless of what is being pushed as the new fad in the dog training world.

 

[carmspack]

nope. this is a co-operative unit , not a militaristic outfit. the dynamics are fluid and not rigid . goals may change you , but they don't change basic , intrinsic , animals psychology

what some see as handler hard might be handler difficult

 

[blehmannwa]

I have a New Skete --born in 2010. He has a lot of Vom Kirschental lines. He is very solid nerved and a beautiful boy--not soft at all, very aloof to strangers but loves those who we invite in. He's doing very well at Nosework and his health is stellar.
Just wanted to add that as a recent experience.

 

[lrodptl]

I have a New Skete --born in 2010. He has a lot of Vom Kirschental lines. He is very solid nerved and a beautiful boy--not soft at all, very aloof to strangers but loves those who we invite in. He's doing very well at Nosework and his health is stellar.
Just wanted to add that as a recent experience.

I also have a New Skete whose parents (James and Xenia) are both Kirschental. He is a complete nervebag and has bitten. He was like this from the moment we brought him home. The Monks told us to destroy him sight unseen. He is now 5 years old. When we picked him up, Julia was teaching the Alpha roll.

 

[Susan_GSD_mom]

I think I missed this thread originally. Got to add my 2 cents worth...

In 40 years I have read and probably tried every training method that came out, including Koehler. I have had GSDs and/or wolf shepherd crosses in all these years. The most valuable thing I took from all of them is: be selective, use your own common sense. If something seems too 'out there' or cruel, don't do it! Extreme example: The Koehler method for training a dog not to dig holes in the yard!

What I've also learned is that different dogs require different nuances in training. Soft dogs thrive one way, hard dogs thrive another. Some wolfdogs require a firm 'alpha' (assertive) hand, some are softer than dogs. One size does not fit all.

As far as the mistakes I have made with different dogs early on, they have all worked out, none of them were permanently marred. I have never raised a canine that ended up a 'problem' animal. In recent years I have taken in a number of rescues that came to me with issues, some of which we trained through, some of which we managed. I have a lovely GSD female right now who is very DA. If I could afford an e-collar, after reading a great deal about them from information David W. and others referred me to, I believe I could improve her, but right now we are managing her, and she is still a very good dog.

Susan