I am against the ban, only because I think government should butt their incredibly ignorant nose out of most things. I don't use prong collars or e-collars, and rarely use treats, and yes, I can train my dogs to do pretty much anything, certainly to not yank my arm out of my socket, or drag me down the road, which is better than 90% of the prong-collar abusers.

Not everyone who uses prong collars are abusers of course. But it rankles those of us who can and do train without them to hear us mocked and put down as much as it rankles those of you who think you need them to be told, that no, you do not.

Sorry, not a dog mom. I am a dog breeder. Yes, I have taken prong collars off of adult, out of control dogs, and have had no trouble training and working with those dogs with no training aids. In fact, I only put a collar on a dog when we leave the property, otherwise they are perfectly controlled with nothing, no leash, no collar, no check chain, no e-collar, no jar of pennies, and so on and so forth. My voice is my greatest tool, and can be used to provide negative and positive markers. Maybe my dogs do not need harsh corrections from me, because I have not built them up to that level of correction.

You know, we teach our dogs to ignore our regular voice by not following through. Then we teach the dog to ignore our commands, by accepting non-compliance/not following through. We build them up to need harsher and harsher punishments by being inconsistent, and failing to follow through.

It isn't rocket science to train a dog.

Evenso, the government knows less about dog training than most of the yayhoos yanking away at prong collars, so they should keep that nose out of it. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty, and if someone injures their dog with a prong collar or anything else, they should face animal cruelty charges. Why ban the collars?

 

all the humane shelters and shelters should take a better and more realistic honest look at what they are releasing as re-homes.

too often the tag line -- well the poor animal was abused as a pup .

with love he can be a new dog.

sometimes.

more often than not , training, discipine, parameters , and life long careful management are in order.

if all dogs were trained well, if all owners were competent in management , then you could have a utopian no equipment whatsoever policy.

until then , I would prefer that the lunging dog that I am approaching while walking with my own dog , (well mannered well trained , walking beside me with a slack leash), was able to be safely and physically controlled - and not by a bandana or break away plastic clip collar.

the muzzle encircling devices are depressing to the dog . That's not right or fair.
Plus the dogs tend to not ravel straight , they crab and that will have physical repercussions down the road .

 

Well "Jeff Gellman" brought the "SLL" bit to my attention. He travels all over the "world" and all across the "US" in his "RV" tours. Perhaps contact him and "Cesar Millan???" Tyler Muto, Larry Krohn "Ty The Dog guy" and Rob Peladeau, to name a few might be willing to chime in ?? Don't know if any of them would give a crap ... as it's not there problem ... but it could not hurt.

 

Who are you quoting? There's a whole lot of quotation marks, but I'm not sure who you are referring to.

 

The CKC has made an official statement denouncing the amendment: CKC Denounces Recent Amendment to Toronto Animal Control Bylaw | CKC

 

.
On Monday while driving around on radio 1010 there was one of the councillors , being interviewed by host Jim Richards with regards to the dog collar ban.
Richards stated that as part of the preparation for this segment he had spoken to many trainers and organizations and almost to a one they felt that the ban was just wrong and not necessary.

This included a guide dog organization which trains, certifies and provides dogs to those in need.

The councillor had little dog knowledge or experience , limited to being an owner of three cats , but he dug in his heels in defense of the by-law.

He said why is it that Toronto Humane can take dogs that have been surrendered because of human or dog aggression and they can train these dogs without collars, be they pinch , and forbid an effectively and appropriately used e-collar.

really?

one caller "Ivan" said that he was a trainer where some of these hard cases were sent to for training.
I know that the trainer of our training club trained dogs sent to him by local shelters -- many of them were pit bulls that got dumped when the breed-ban came in.
At this moment I know another trainer who is training dogs with problems so that they can be rehomed.

of course you had your breathless people calling in saying that the slip collars were instruments of torture - that dogs were hung as a correction.

one worry was that there was talk of a cross Ontario ban -

 

I truly believe it is never the tool but always the tool holder. Any tool can be made bad based on the mind of the one who possesses it. I have seen a pen in the wrong persons hand destroy an entire career...or masking tape kill a dog. It is never the tool itself. Many folk use prong collars correctly...sometimes with a tiny pop as a stim in tracking just before the food...a marker so to speak; some use it in heeling with the same measure...tiny pops up and get the food....others hang a dog by it or yank the dog mercilessly in their anger. The thing that needs to have better regulation are animal abuse laws/consequences and mandated education. There is a dichotomy across the board. Germany speaks against it also and yet the best made prong collar comes from there...clearly this topic is divided everywhere. But I think to blatantly ban anything is the same misguided thought process that bands certain breeds in the same manner.

 

The latest on this (that I'm aware of) is that the matter is being re-opened so that they can expressly exempt service animals (this after the Guide Dog Users of Canada asked for an exemption for their members). I believe one of the counselors is supporting that the whole bylaw be re-opened.

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/03/28/choke-chain-ban-goes-back-before-toronto-city-council.html

 

There was not rhyme or reason put into this law. It does show though -how harmful the uneducated can be who put this law into effect.

 

in the interview , Richards said that he had been speaking with a member of Toronto's K9 unit.

they are "exempt" but it seems like they had to go to lengths to get this . They said that they want the extra security in situations "where bricks were being thrown at them".

GTA ? I don't know . The spectre of this being province wide was raised . THC and OSPCA

 

I think dog owners need to get together and start fighting for their rights, this is going way to far. Imagine (or you don't have to imagine) what would happen if there was talk of banning certain types of guns... we need to have more leverage as dog owners, than we do, to fight this kind of legislation. Mandatory spay-neuter is another law that I can't believe gets passed in some cities. Maybe the problem is that dog owners are not united on these issues.

 

Humane organizations, make their living off of people who are convinced they are helping animals. Some of them make a great living off of the pity and stupidity of people. They believe this money is going to help starving and abused animals, when it is actually going to their organization's hierarchy and to lobbyists. The lobbyists, have tons of money to woo politicians with, and the politicians, when they have bills about pets, know exactly where to go when they need information about pet stuff -- these "humane" organizations.

It's a flawed system here in the states. Can't speak for Canada though, but I expect it is about the same.

All the dog owners, or dog trainers out there, cannot compete with these humane organizations. They are mobilized and have plenty of monetary backing. The rest of us have small breed clubs or training clubs that can barely afford to pay for the next show we will put on.

 

Humane groups definitely having growing sway in the US, and their agenda goes well beyond pet regulations...they've conducted extensive campaigns against hunting in some states, and have even been successful in having it outlawed it in some cases.

That said, a law forbidding the use of a prong collar would not fly in most parts of the US, humane organizations or not. It is an overreach of government to the nth degree, and most Americans, regardless of political views would have little tolerance for it. I'm glad it has been postponed for now, but the fact that elected politicians in Toronto were that serious about passing such a regulation absolutely boggles my mind...like I said I love Canada, but some of the laws they pass up there are ridiculous (I'm generalizing of course as this varies by province or even areas within a province).

 

I am on the facebook group, the ban is off until further study, September sometime,
repealed, for now.

 

I think they have outlawed fox hunting with dogs, and hunting within city limits even in parks or game reserves, but hunting altogether, that would be crazy.

Part of me wouldn't mind if they outlawed trapping.

Yeah, we think that, but there are some crazy laws passed here in the US too. Limits of how many dogs you can have, mandatory spay/neuter -- that's a sucky law some places have enacted, talk about overstepping. I can see them banning e-collars or prong collars in some places whose politics are for more regulations.

 

I think they have outlawed fox hunting with dogs, and hunting within city limits even in parks or game reserves, but hunting altogether, that would be crazy.

California outlawed all forms of cougar hunting, mostly because of the active campaigning by various AR and humane groups there....the ultimate irony is that the state's wildlife agency still ends up culling ~150 cats annually (sometimes more) for reasons of livestock depredation and public safety (all taxpayer funded of course).

Yeah, we think that, but there are some crazy laws passed here in the US too. Limits of how many dogs you can have, mandatory spay/neuter -- that's a sucky law some places have enacted, talk about overstepping. I can see them banning e-collars or prong collars in some places whose politics are for more regulations.

Which US states have mandatory spay/neuter laws? I've heard of limits on the # you can own in some areas, though it doesn't seem to be an overly restrictive or widespread regulation.

I haven't heard any places in the US limiting the use of e-collars or prong collars. I think if a city or state tried that in the US, there'd be a bit of an uproar (and to be fair it looks like there has been a backlash of sorts in Toronto on this issue). It's kind of like the government saying you can't discipline your kids for misbehaving...yeah, there's a point where "discipline" crosses the line and becomes "abuse." But up until that point, a parent should have some leeway for raising and managing his/her kid, and the government has no business sticking its nose into what is essentially family matter. Same applies for raising and training dogs.

A prong collar, and e-collar for that matter, is a tool...it can be abused just like any other tool, but when properly used it is of great use in correcting a dog. Someone who owns a few cats and a 7lb Pomeranian might not appreciate the usefulness of such tools, but someone who has owned and trained an 85lb herding dog, with even moderate drives, will.

 

quote ". I'm glad it has been postponed for now, but the fact that elected politicians in Toronto were that serious about passing such a regulation absolutely boggles my mind"

I'll tell you how much it boggles my mind .
I was listening to the Richards and councillor interview and could not believe the childish notions that the councillor had.
He even said , why , if the guide dogs can be trained in harness . What? As in are you kidding .
That harness has absolutely nothing to do with trainer . That is an appliance attached to the dog to assist in the blind person negotiating forward motion, avoiding objects and going through a crowd.
It is not the same harness as all those pets are wearing. Many of them ill fitting and the dog hobbled in motion .

I have mentioned this before , as far back as maybe 15 years or so . There was a Vet-surgeon who tried to ban raw feeding -- oh yes there was , and by-law would have been part of it.

You really have to keep your ear to the ground and your eye to the horizon to know what agendas there are.

 

Disturbingly ignorant.

 

Toronto city council overturned the ban last night: https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/03/29/toronto-city-council-overturns-ban-on-pronged-dog-collars-choke-chains.html
It looks like they'll now do some actual consultation on collars and training tools.

 

This is good news now is the time for pet owners to speak up about pet owner's rights.

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h.../29/toronto-city-council-overturns-ban-on-pronged-dog-collars-choke-chains.html

 

I even got an official response to my emailed letter. It was a bulk "canned" response, but it does mean that every email was officially counted.

 

In Ohio, there is a provision on in the Ohio Revised Code to charge more for intact animals for licenses, if the counties want to try that. Our county does not fund a dog shelter, so it is no business of theirs whether my dog is intact or not. Thankfully, they are not pulling that, but lots of other places do.

And a few do have mandatory spay/neuter by 4 months or 6 months of age. Ok, make it mandatory for pet shelters not to sell an animal to a new owner without spay/neuter, but forcing people to spay/neuter a pet that they purchased, that is beyond reasonableness. And they have done it.

They have also made it illegal to crop or dock, ears and tails, in places, where even to drive through on your way with a cropped or docked dog, you would have to have evidence that it was done by a vet.

They make plenty of laws here in the states that are bad laws, that they have no business making. You say, Americans wouldn't stand for it? Well, there are a lot of dog owners in the US, that is true, but until something affects individuals, themselves, you would be surprised what they would stand for. I mean, look, I don't give a darn about prong collars, I don't use them. Do you think I would protest in front of the village hall, and risk being imprisoned when that crap turned into a riot by people just itching to start fights over anything? Nope, I'll go to work like on any other day, and when they pass the law about mandatory spay/neuter, I will start showing my dogs in conformation to avoid the issue. Others will just not say anything about it. What? they can't go door to door to ask for rabies certificates or licenses, are the going to go door to door looking for testicles, and how will they check bitches?

Many of us will do what the people of Canada did. We will call our assemblymen and ask what they were thinking and how fast they can reverse it. And we would probably get our doggy-friends to do likewise. Maybe it would work, maybe not. I think in this case it worked.