This makes me very, very sad. Clearly someone with a lot of "feelings" and not a lot of critical thinking decided this would be a good move without considering those working with dogs that need such tools to be handled appropriately, and at times safely.

 

sigh, if they think that everything can be fixed by a well timed treat, they haven't really trained a dog. I'd have to never feed my dogs from a bowl and work for every bite they get during a walk for that to work. A tasty tidbit won't compete with wanting to go over to another dog or chase a squirrel, for instance. I'd have to watch my dog every second and as soon as that glance happens or that ear pricks we'd have to change course. I guess we would all have a better handle on our dogs or we'd be forced to leave them home when we go out. What a sad city to live in.

 

a dog that is trained won't need to have that pinch or slip collar on for corrections , or punishment which is probably the idea that was advanced .

what those collars provide is security , safety for the dog

the worst collars are those prong plastic buckles that if the dog pulls start to fatigue and eventually fail - and then you are left there with the leash and collar in your hand and the dog running across traffic

then there are people who don't know how to fit a flat collar . The collar is so large it is resting on the dogs shoulders - the dog can back out of them.

the harnesses are useless and ill fitting , interfering with freedom of movement in the front . Hobbled .

 

They definitely snuck this one in! I didn't know about it until a friend who trains dogs for a living posted it on FB!

Interesting coincidence that Monique Anstee of The Naughty Dogge also posted THIS in her blog last week, about a woman who couldn't control her dogs, and was at risk of having them both euthanized:

https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee/posts/10154184408331246?comment_id=10154186482361246&notif_t=feed_comment_reply&notif_id=1488552897129322&hc_location=ufi"]

If I make the link live, it disappears, so you will have to cut and paste. I guess that's because I'm a newbie, and they are afraid I will post spam. I would cut and paste the post from her blog, but I'm not sure if that is permitted without her permission.

 

Oh, what the heck...this NEEDS to be said!

Here's the whole blog posts. Mods, feel free to remove it if this is not allowed.

As a Dog Society, we are failing.

I've been having run-ins with a woman with her two out-of-control dogs. Both of her dogs are reactive, and one is downright dangerous, but that isn't the subject of this blog, though it will be the subject of many future ones.

What this blog is about is how we, dog trainers and the current world of training, have failed this woman and many others.

How? She has been told, and believes, that she can retrain her aggressive rescue dog, of a fighting breed, that darn near outweighs her, that she can do it without corrections. She cannot.

Instead, she has a dog, well two dogs, that she cannot control, and cannot walk on a leash. She physically cannot hold onto their leash. They outweigh her and take her to their victims.

No one has taught this woman about corrective equipment that can help her get control. It isn't politically correct, so dog-trainers skip those conversations. Instead, I'm sure her mentors are watching, waiting for her to euthanize her dangerous dog. Because euthanizing is easier than putting on a pinch collar and risking being bad mouthed by your peers in this small town.

Her solution thus far, rather than looking like a water-skier behind a boat, is to unclip the less-dangerous one. Can we fault her? No. Her no-pull harness was not designed for her lunging gladiator. And no meatball or roasted liver treat outweighs the reward of a freshly caught Border Collie.

It's time for people in the rescue world and dog trainers to get honest again. If we want to adopt this type of dog out, we need to be honest and admit that the training methods that we suggest for your perfect but unruly labradoodle and all regular pet dogs will not be suitable for a dog bred to protect at no cost, who out-weighs you, and who is coming with past baggage.

Monique Anstee
The Naughty Dogge

 

It's time for people in the rescue world and dog trainers to get honest again. If we want to adopt this type of dog out, we need to be honest and admit that the training methods that we suggest for your perfect but unruly labradoodle and all regular pet dogs will not be suitable for a dog bred to protect at no cost, who out-weighs you, and who is coming with past baggage.

Monique Anstee
The Naughty Dogge

What can I say but yes??? I've seen those owners ... if I have my dog with me ... I stay well clear. If I don't have my dog ... I "try" and offer help but you know no takers ... thus far?? The really sad "fails" are people that are trying. But they are going with "what they know or belive will work "PO" ... with the wrong dog and it's just not working??? They know they have a "problem" but they feel ... there is just no hope???

I tried one day at an on leash dog park. The guy said he was working with a "trainer" and other dogs were getting hurt??? All he wanted was a dog to enjoy life with and now he was "trapped??" He was in a leashed dog only area and his (Breed Who Shall Not Be Mentioned) was on a long line and the dog was of course "pulling away" he was staying well clear of others but of course not every dog there was on a leash so .... yeah.

I saw him in the distance and put "Rocky" away to see if I could help??? That's how I know the details of his story, of course it was an otherwise sweet dog ... but the guy needed "Real" help with the dogs "Issues." I gave him my phone number but never heard from him.

It's one thing when people just have no clue and don't care to bother trying but it's quite another to see an owner struggling to cope and getting/paying for useless advise, while trying crap that is just not gonna work. So yes it starts with "Rescue" and lots of them just don't have a clue ... kinda sad.

 

That's a great statement. There is a lot of truth in that.
I'm curious if the ban will be overlooked until it becomes an issue in a neglect or abuse case. Like the Ontario BSL?

 

topic not allowed. Please see Administrator Messages at the top of the forum.

 

My dog is my second who requires a martingale. He knows how to pop out of a collar and every once in awhile is enough of a booger to try. So his regular daily collar is a martingale. I can't tell that it has any corrective function at all, maybe if it were adjusted differently? His is adjusted so that with the loop pulled as far as it goes it is snug against his neck but not causing any "choke" sensation. it simply makes it impossible for him to back out of it.

I had hoped he would outgrow that idea but I am beginning to think maybe not.

 

Nope no "mystery" there ... that is what a "Martingale Collar" is designed to do. But ... becasue it's "different" people tend to "assume" it's a training collar.

I hear from people that use them and ... I let it go, if they go that route "Martingale" they are "essentially" using a regular collar and leash. That works also if they believe that they can now train there dog because of the "Martingale" ... no harm no foul.

So it not being on the "Banned" list makes perfect sense ... city board must have talked to someone???

 

They should take the folks with the power to make changes take some strong steady dogs for a walk. We did that with my sister. She was a boarder collie person who did agility and now is a photographer at dog events. She said that she'd never use a prong collar. My big boy is a very level headed dog, but he does take advantage. We use the prong as a simple check if he wants to push his weight around. We gave my sis the leash and clipped it to his martingale. My sister, who is very dog smart, was nearly dragged down the trail. "OK, you can clip it back on the prong collar now. This is like trying to walk a horse", she yelled as she was struggling to keep up with my boy. (I swear my dog has a sense of humor). We clipped the leash to the prong and he walked with her like a gentleman. No pain, no stress, just a nice walk.

That is what these law makers need to experience for themselves.

 

car2ner I don't think they care because this is only the beginning !

eventually NO dog ownership . No pets . IPO will have to go underground - meet at secretive locations .

who is going to patrol?

does a car passing through Toronto with a dog in a back seat wearing a choke qualify?

what is the limit to this nonsense.

 

The way it's going... Only certain groups will have purebred dogs. Everyone else will have to adopt and we all know what breeds are and aren't available....

 

Leerburg makes a collar that is prong but does not look like a prong. It looks like a flat collar. Another collar not mentioned is the e collar. so much for the pc owners of urban poodles.

 

I'd be pretty sure they already Banned the E-Collar. I was going to track it down but stopped here.:

The shocking truth about e-collars

It looks like that ban passed in 2014, despite evidence to the contrary indicating that the "Tool" in question helped save dogs lives.

 

Really dumb question about the petition.
Who can see your name & address? Toronto City Council--yes, I want them to see my name and address. The whole world & google, not so much.
I'm sure I'll sign very soon.
It's a well-written petition, could have been slightly more specific...to allow prongs for dogs being trained and exercised; retaining the ban on tie-outs is absolutely fine with me, but then again, idiots and cruel people will do as they please, ban or no ban (the latest cruelty in TO news was accomplished with a brocolli elastic) and embedded flat collars kill dogs. (I think the current ban might have been slipped through due to an embedded prong case in the local news last year, just a bit before the brocolli elastic disaster)

 

You can give a fake name or fake address, I doubt they will go through every single signing to confirm they are real people, besides that, you're a real person even if your name isn't Jessica Messica at 666 Mordor Avenue

 

When I had the boarding kennel, the vast majority of dogs that came in had their flat collars fitted so loose that they could easily slip out of them, which is why I usually used a noose to take the dog back to the kennel!

Had a reactive Golden come in, towing his owner behind him. The dog needed to be rehomed, and already had a muzzle order slapped on him, because someone's off-leash chi mix attacked him when he was left outside, tied to a tree, while his owner went inside to go to the washroom. OF COURSE, he defended himself, and the smaller dog was the one that got hurt.

I put a prong on him and in 10 minutes, had him walking nicely by my side on a loose leash. (Yes, treats were involved!)
I showed the owner's son (the dog's main caretaker) how to do it, and he caught on really fast.

This situation had been an accident waiting to happen, due to the lack of control. He was being walked in a halti, which they saw as a cheap alternative to a muzzle. If there had been another incident, they would have been slapped with a hefty fine, and the dog likely would have been euthanized.

Nothing wrong with the dog's temperament at all. I had him professionally evaluated, as I was the one who'd been asked to help rehome him, and I didn't want to pass an aggressive dog on to someone else.

 

Outlawing the use of a choke collar is stupid and is not something the government needs to be involved in. This is the slippery slope others have alluded to, when you start to allow governments to get involved in licensing breeds, trainers, and methods, they start to infringe on legitimate training methods and the law-abiding dog-owners out there...it's the "you give an inch, they take a mile" mentality.

I love Canada, I've met some really great people up there, but some of the laws that are passed are just obscene...and that's coming from a NY resident.

 

I feel like BSL is soon to follow.

 

Draco, for people living in Toronto, Ontario, it's already HERE, and has been since 2005 when the province banned a number of breeds.

 

That really sucks. I looked into it, it looks like Ontario has not decreased incident despite laws against certain breeds, but the incidents have decreased drastically in Calgary with strong licensing law, enforcement and dog safety public education campaigns.

https://www.torontohumanesociety.com/pdfs/Breed_Specific_Legislation_Jan-14.pdf

There's only a handful of cities in the US that have breed specific laws, luckily there are none in my cities. Sadly despite laws, people can still deny renters based on the breed of their dog.

These supposed dangerous breeds are more strong willed and often do benefit from the use of training collars, which is why I feel the rate of incident will increase if people do not have the proper tools for correction. Therefor just reinforcing the narrow view on these breeds.

 

There is a poll. Perhaps this law can be changed. Look at the bottom of the article

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...a/2017/03/12/toronto-dog-collar-ban-barks-up-the-wrong-tree-dog-lovers-say.html

 

I listened to a clip of a radio interview of the counselor who drove the ban, and he compares a prong collar to barbed wire around the neck, and that the pain makes a dog vicious.

 

So called 'force free' trainers say this all time--they are so sincere, they consider themselves experts. Hard to argue with given what a prong collar looks like. They have never used a prong collar, or they have used on on the wrong dog in the wrong way.

Okay, so here's my email to Glen De Baermaeker,
I will be providing my full name, phone number, and address with the email (not included here, of course)


It's still in draft. Did I say something stupid?

Dear Councillor Glen De Baeremaeker

I realize you have the best of intentions and your care for the welfare of dogs is your primary motivation for the amendment to By-law 102-2017, subsection 349-8.1 that bans prong collars and choke collars, but it creates far more problems than it solves.

I'm sure you are hearing the objections now. I thought, instead of repeating those, or arguing, I would send you a link to a video of my dog, he's wearing a prong collar in this video; he is playing, he is having fun, he is obeying my instructions because it's fun and rewarding to do so.

I have worn his collar on my own neck, and have tugged on it. It does not hurt (although it would be embarrassing to do this in public). I have tried the so called humane alternative, the head halter, and that device induces outright panic in dogs. A previous dog I owned, a german shepherd, suffered whiplash from wearing a head halter. I have never had a dog injured from wearing a prong collar, nor have I suffered a injury when my dogs were wearing a prong collar. My previous dog, a German Shepherd, caused her dog-walker (a professional dog trainer) to have a dislocated shoulder--this German Shepherd was a wonderful normal exuberant dog.
I have permanent tendon damage in my left hand due to a 'leash accident' from my current 40 lb dog when he unexpectedly darted towards the street. I started using the prong with him afterwards; without it I would have been unable to walk him for many months as the injury was severe. I did try to condition him to a head-halter but it causes a great deal of distress/panic when he is outdoors (the extreme restraint scares him).
I train dogs motivationally, and participate in agility (a fun dog sport that dogs love), but in the real world, where 'mistakes' can be deadly (dog gets hit by a car) I don't take chances.
Having owned bigger dogs (60 - 80 lbs), and now that I have a smaller dog (40 lbs), I won't feel my dog is safe in the city of Toronto, given that the new bylaw will lead to well-meaning law abiding owners losing control of their dog when their 'he's never done that before' dog lunges at my dog.

However, I am mostly concerned for the welfare of the dogs--owners who are having trouble with their dogs will end up choosing to leave their dogs home and under-exercised at best, at worst, they will give up on their dogs and rehome or euthanize them for simply acting like a dog. Somewhere in the middle will be the dejected dogs stuffed into 'head-halter's' and head-halters are not safe or humane from the dogs point of view (humans love them, dogs hate them).

Dogs can be abused by many things, even elastic bands. (this was recently in the news), flat collars kill dogs when they get embedded (horrifyingly true). Banning training collars does not increase the welfare and safety of dogs.

Please take the time to listen to those of us who love and care for our dogs, who train in ways that give the dog fun and confidence, who ensure that others not only are safe, but feel safe, when we walk our dogs down the street, and who do are best to include our dogs in as many activities of our life as practical--long walks, picnics, beach days, walking along the board walk, camping trips and dog sports.

Sincerely, because I love dogs, and want them all to have a chance at living a normal life of long walks and fresh air.

 

Island Dog, I pray that they read your message and understand the intent. We also use prong collars so I am biased. To me it looks like a well written note but it is mostly opinion. You might need to find something with more "teeth" in it. Some sort of statistics or experts. If you can find a study that would help. Or you could find a number of like minded folks for them to see that there is a large enough group of pro-training collar folks to sway an election.

 

hi, and thanks.
I'm hoping professional trainers with experience will step in with their expertise.
It's hard to prove a negative, and given the variables, the individual dog, handler, situation, I have no idea how anyone could do scientific study--if anyone finds one, let me know, I would appreciate it.
Since I only know my own dogs, I've stuck with my own first hand experience, one letter amoung many if people speak up.
Still wondering what some local training schools will do--business as usual?

 

There are quite a few trainers involved on the FaceBook page set up for this, and they are actively contacting their counselors, giving radio and newspaper interviews, etc.




I don't live in the city, so don't really have an official leg to stand on, but am greatly interested in the issue.

 

Good discussion last night on the issue on a Niagara radio station: Dog Talk with Dave McMahon

 

So I sent my letter, as is with minor revisions. It is a first person account, my dogs, my experiences, my valid observations--the science of one. Unlike many on the other side of the debate, I actually do the experiment, and I was polite. Polite is important. Because politicians, these politicians, are doing their jobs, doing what they believe is the right thing, just as I, a private citizen writing a letter of concern, am trying to do the right thing.

Any other links to civil actions, I would be interested, although I'm not keen on joining facebook groups, if some other form of contact can be arranged, I would be interested (here or email or website).

I don't live in Toronto either, it doesn't mean I cannot have an opinion. I care about dogs, I don't want to think of what happens to all the large boisterous dogs that live there when their owners get advised to confine, rehome or euthanize. I've spent more than enough time on a 'force free' forum (what you folks (and me sometimes) call all positive, or positive only) and I know exactly what advice is given to owners of dogs that don't respond to their training methods. Occasionally it might be correct, a dog has neurological problems and absolutely cannot cope with ordinary life, but they won't even consider alternatives, no matter what the circumstance. This is the training philosophy being enforced in Toronto.

 

Hmmm been following this online and the Slip lead leash came up??? "Technically" it can function as a "Choke Collar" is a "SLL" Banned also???

 

that would be under the "and similar" category--you can use a martingale--unless you're actually trying to choke a dog, a martingale would accomplish the same thing but be far less convenient. I use a slip leash in agility for quick no fuss leash-ups.

they did paint a broad brush.

 

I looked up this ban on facebook, seems like most of the posts are dog moms supporting the ban. Dog moms are ruining canine ownership for those who don't treat dogs like humans.

I just don't get how people can think that you can train a dog to do anything with a treat and a happy voice. How many positive only trainers rehabilitate large dangerous dogs anyway? None of the success stories I've read or watched on rehabbed dogs were trained by positive only trainers.

 

I looked up this ban on facebook, seems like most of the posts are dog moms supporting the ban. Dog moms are ruining canine ownership for those who don't treat dogs like humans.

I just don't get how people can think that you can train a dog to do anything with a treat and a happy voice. How many positive only trainers rehabilitate large dangerous dogs anyway? None of the success stories I've read or watched on rehabbed dogs were trained by positive only trainers.

Diva is food motivated, no question about it. Suki, on the other hand, is not. You could wave a piece of steak dipped in peanut butter in front of her, and she will likely ignore it if something else has her attention. There is no one-fit solution here, as they like to think.

 

If course, this is ridiculous to us, because we know how to properly use and train with these collars, but I have seen way to many abusers of these collars to be mad at this bylaw. If it does reduce animal cruelty, it is worth it, but if it's just because uneducated people think that they're inherently cruel, then I do shake my head at this development.

 

Just curious, is the abuse on-line or in real life? Maybe it's regional. The only dogs I have actually seen wearing prongs are dogs enjoying (and I do mean enjoying) a leashed neighbourhood walk, and in schutzhund and in classes wear trainers are part of that world.
I did see a big black lab with a prong on in a dog park, which is stupid (a real hazard given dogs like to grab each other by the neck--against dogpark rules too), but definitely not getting abused, but maybe there are regional differences?

I would think the abused dogs are stuck hidden in back yards, chained somewhere out of sight.

The original bylaw, (without the tiny but significant amendment) is meant to tackle abuse, limits on tethering, and banning choke and prong collars used to tether dogs. I would not want that part rescinded--most of the bylaw is very good.