[Samba]

Mega E can be a surprise. I have seen two dogs diagnosed with it later. One had been bred before diagnosis. There are variable expressions of the disease. It did become a real problem as to aspiration pneumonia. One girl has a large one and is in her 9th year with not too much trouble managing daily life.

I have seen carriers bred extensively. I am not sure of its incidence in the breed. Would not want to breed an affected dog or put two known carriers together. Can we eliminate all detrimental genes and not loose other valuable ones? I have noted that the geneticists are not quick to say do not breed carriers of several things in an effort to maintain other valuable genetics otherwise in the dogs.

 

[Lilie]

If I was a breeder, and I had a dog that had produced a Mega-E pup, but was an outstanding dog in every other aspect, I don't know if I would retire him from breeding. But I would certainly be honest and open about the Mega-E issue, and I would hope anyone else in the same situation would be honest and open about it.

I would certainly hope any 'reputable' breeder would provide that information as well. If not, I see a very fine line between that type of breeder and a byb, where profit comes first.

 

[jaggirl47]

Mega E can be a surprise. I have seen two dogs diagnosed with it later. One had been bred before diagnosis. There are variable expressions of the disease. It did become a real problem as to aspiration pneumonia. One girl has a large one and is in her 9th year with not too much trouble managing daily life.

I have seen carriers bred extensively. I am not sure of its incidence in the breed. Would not want to breed an affected dog or put two known carriers together. Can we eliminate all detrimental genes and not loose other valuable ones? I have noted that the geneticists are not quick to say do not breed carriers of several things in an effort to maintain other valuable genetics otherwise in the dogs.

If the dogs showed up with it later it is considered secondary and not genetic. The genetic form is the primary idiopathic MEand shows up in puppies, normally at the time of transition to food or cy up to 8-12 weeks.

If there were tests out there and we could know who the carriers were, it would be much different.

 

[jaggirl47]

I would certainly hope any 'reputable' breeder would provide that information as well. If not, I see a very fine line between that type of breeder and a byb, where profit comes first.

The thing is, the breeder acknowledges this was produced 100% and is learning everything they can about it. The stud owner on the other hand, not so much. I have a feeling that even if he produces more ME pups, he would continue to stud the dog without acknowledgement or letting the bitch owners know.

 

[Samba]

Definitely genetic in the dogs I know. It just was not noted or detected early on. There is variable expression. I know the lines and the carrier sire they have in common. They were born with disorder. So, later detection does not necessarily determine that it is not genetic. But, yes, there are other causes of problems with esophageal function.

 

[onyx'girl]

I would hope that anyone wanting to use this(or any) stud would do their research first....see what he's been producing before making the decision to use him. That is what responsible breeders do.

 

[Lilie]

The thing is, the breeder acknowledges this was produced 100% and is learning everything they can about it. The stud owner on the other hand, not so much. I have a feeling that even if he produces more ME pups, he would continue to stud the dog without acknowledgement or letting the bitch owners know.

That is so wrong, on so many levels. To me, that makes the stud owner no better than the byb breeding just for profit.

 

[jaggirl47]

I would hope that anyone wanting to use this(or any) stud would do their research first....see what he's been producing before making the decision to use him. That is what responsible breeders do.

I agree with this 100%. The stud has only sired 2 litters so far. Out of the 2, 1 litter was affected. The stud has 2 more breedings this week.

If the stud owner doesn't admit it, how will the potential bitch owners find out?

 

[Lilie]

I would hope that anyone wanting to use this(or any) stud would do their research first....see what he's been producing before making the decision to use him. That is what responsible breeders do.

Is there a location where breeders (stud or bitch) can gather (health related) information from?

 

[jaggirl47]

Is there a location where breeders (stud or bitch) can gather (health related) information from?

Comments from PDB maybe. That's all I can think of. The dog's pedigree link go's to workingdog.eu though. You can't place comments there.

 

[Lilie]

Comments from PDB maybe. That's all I can think of. The dog's pedigree link go's to workingdog.eu though. You can't place comments there.

I certainly don't want to derail your thread. But do you realize how scary this is for us 'non-breeders'? Those of us who perform all the research (obviously only that which is available) find a 'reputable breeder' pay at least $1000 more than what we could have paid picking up a dog from Craig's List, only to find that everything we did was a waste? It's still very much a crap shoot? Only we laid down a bigger wager. At least the Craig's List folks have no idea they are selling faulty puppies - (some) 'reputable' breeders do!

 

[jaggirl47]

I certainly don't want to derail your thread. But do you realize how scary this is for us 'non-breeders'? Those of us who perform all the research (obviously only that which is available) find a 'reputable breeder' pay at least $1000 more than what we could have paid picking up a dog from Craig's List, only to find that everything we did was a waste? It's still very much a crap shoot? Only we laid down a bigger wager. At least the Craig's List folks have no idea they are selling faulty puppies - (some) 'reputable' breeders do!

That's why I am posing these questions. I am not a breeder, I am strictly a buyer. It's extremely scary.

 

[martemchik]

When I did my research on the disease (after the pup we got had it), I'm really not sure how it is passed. In some of my research it seems to be more of a mutation in utero rather than a true genetic disease. Out of 10 pups, one didn't get the nutrients or just got a bad cell that ended up not developing the esophagus while the pup was in the uterus. In theory any dog that has ever had megaE in its family history has a chance to be a carrier. Not sure if you can really track this down without seeing the dog produce a megaE puppy. In the case of a breeder/stud owner not disclosing that this has happened, is in my opinion ethically incorrect, but like the others have said, in my opinion it probably shouldn't rule out that dog as a stud.

 

[jaggirl47]

When I did my research on the disease (after the pup we got had it), I'm really not sure how it is passed. In some of my research it seems to be more of a mutation in utero rather than a true genetic disease. Out of 10 pups, one didn't get the nutrients or just got a bad cell that ended up not developing the esophagus while the pup was in the uterus. In theory any dog that has ever had megaE in its family history has a chance to be a carrier. Not sure if you can really track this down without seeing the dog produce a megaE puppy. In the case of a breeder/stud owner not disclosing that this has happened, is in my opinion ethically incorrect, but like the others have said, in my opinion it probably shouldn't rule out that dog as a stud.

I have never heard this theory but it has been shown that it causes changes to chromosome 12, so I would think this theory is not correct. The only in utero one that I am aware of is mega e secondary to PRAA.

 

[Lilie]

Not sure if you can really track this down without seeing the dog produce a megaE puppy. In the case of a breeder/stud owner not disclosing that this has happened, is in my opinion ethically incorrect, but like the others have said, in my opinion it probably shouldn't rule out that dog as a stud.

I can certainly understand that purchasing a live animal is a gamble. Breeders can't be held accountable for every health issue. However, when a breeder knows they have a stud/bitch that has produced (in this discussion) MegaE, it should be disclosed.

If I'm searching for a specific type dog, from specific bloodlines, with specific traits, and therefore go to a specific breeder, then it would be my choice to accept the chance the pup might (or might not) have (in this discussion) MegaE.

 

[jaggirl47]

I can certainly understand that purchasing a live animal is a gamble. Breeders can't be held accountable for every health issue. However, when a breeder knows they have a stud/bitch that has produced (in this discussion) MegaE, it should be disclosed.

If I'm searching for a specific type dog, from specific bloodlines, with specific traits, and therefore go to a specific breeder, then it would be my choice to accept the chance the pup might (or might not) have (in this discussion) MegaE.

I do agree with this and as a buyer, I would have a greater respect for the breeder that does disclose it. Unfortunately, the vast majority don't disclose it and continue to hide it.

 

[MaggieRoseLee]

When I did my research on the disease (after the pup we got had it), I'm really not sure how it is passed. In some of my research it seems to be more of a mutation in utero rather than a true genetic disease. Out of 10 pups, one didn't get the nutrients or just got a bad cell that ended up not developing the esophagus while the pup was in the uterus. In theory any dog that has ever had megaE in its family history has a chance to be a carrier. Not sure if you can really track this down without seeing the dog produce a megaE puppy. In the case of a breeder/stud owner not disclosing that this has happened, is in my opinion ethically incorrect, but like the others have said, in my opinion it probably shouldn't rule out that dog as a stud.

I'm with my 2nd GSD with mega and really do think it's genetic. My first mega pup was from the Seeing Eye and they knew they had it in their lines, had a geneticist on staff, and still were dealing with it.

Since they had zero elbow/ Hip dysplasia in their lines. And had also removed other genetic issues, they didn't want to pitch all the dogs out of their program and just have to start all over with ALL the genetic problems.

I feel one of the problem with mega is how it shows in dogs. It can be so bad puppies die soon after birth, or many of them die or are very ill when going to solid foods. If/when these puppies die so young, most breeders don't do an autopsy and have no idea why they died.

Or it can be like both my mega dogs.... hardly noticable UNLESS YOU HAVE A KNOWLEDGABLE AND HONEST BREEDER!!!

The part I have in bold is what I feel is a big issue. Dishonest breeders who can cover up a mega issue in their lines either by culling (killing) puppies and thus removing the problem (not really AT ALL). Or honest and well intentioned breeders who just don't have a clue about this (and many other genetic) conditions that are in our breed.

Both of the breeders in the last paragraph are making sure that the GENETICS of this aren't honestly being spoken about or considered in future breedings of their dogs.

Back to the Seeing Eye, who does such crazy research before adding ANY dogs to their program.... a few years after I got my mega pup (Elsa Rose) and their continued follow up of all their mega dogs was showing that MANY of them either grew up to be 100% normal at adulthood, or were so mildly afflicted they would easily be able to be kept in the program and given to a blind person (I got my Elsa at 7 weeks because at that time they were immediately pulling them from the program and rehoming them). They bought TWO top male Sch dogs from Germany. They were the 'showline' type GSD's and you know all their genetics were gone over and mega brought up and ruled out of these dogs.

So they purchased the two beautiful males, brought them over to the USA and started breeding them. And VOILA for the first time EVER had litter(s) with 100% of them with mega! Previously they had litters like Elsa's (7 pups, 3 with mega but USUALLY there were fewer or none).

What does this tell you? There had to be mega in that top male GSD line that had not been brought up!!!!

So if you KNOW a large responsible breeder with the money, time, vets ON STAFF, and a geneticist to refer to can fall prey to some type of cover up/dishonesty. For most 'regular' breeders this shows the difficulties with ANY breeding.

 

[jaggirl47]

Maggie,

I like what you wrote. I also do not think that mega is becoming more common, just that it is being reported more because culling litters is happening less and less.

I just hate the fact that so much has been hidden in the lines because now it is coming back to bite us in the butt.

 

[martemchik]

I guess after what I went through with my pup, he didn't have a mild case. So a mild case in my opinion isn't that big of a deal. If the dog can still live its full life, without that many issues eating food and still be a full size dog, I don't really think its that large of a problem. The dog we had, would regurgitate food unless he was kept upright and even then sometimes would. We gave him back to the breeder because we couldn't be there for him as much as the breeder and the dog lived to be 1.5 years old. But then the disease caused other failures in his body.

But I do understand what you mean by 100% of the liter being affected...its wrong even if it is a minor case that doesn't affect the dog's quality of life. I hope that breeder can truly figure out what is going on with the disease and try to get it out of their lines, and then explain to the rest of the world what is the cause of it.

 

[Lilie]

I guess after what I went through with my pup, he didn't have a mild case. So a mild case in my opinion isn't that big of a deal. If the dog can still live its full life, without that many issues eating food and still be a full size dog, I don't really think its that large of a problem.

I think the problem would be if the breeder didn't disclose the possibility. If the breeder knew the possiblity, it would certainly matter to me even if it were a mild case.

If I went to a 'reputable' breeder with the hopes of purchasing the next best dog in the show ring (what ever venue) and possibly one day becoming a breeder myself, and the breeder knowingly sold me a puppy that could possibly NEVER become what I envisioned that, to me, is worse than a byb. Much worse.