[JenM66]

Oh Kramer, making your mom worry as you went RUNNING!!!!!

I have no idea what it is like to be in your shoes, Jean, but please stop wondering if you did this or that if things would be different now. We have no way of knowing. Look at the love and wonderful years you've given the King and leave it at that. Let HRH eat whatever he'd like, do whatever he'd like, and live his life - be it days, weeks or months longer - however he'd like - making you crazy

Lots of hugs to you and slurps to Kramer from his little red-headed girl in NJ. Gracie

s Kramer!!

 

[Argonaut]

Dear Jean,


I'm so sorry I just found this thread---haven't been on much in awhile. Thanks for posting those gorgeous shots of your beautiful boy. I'm so sorry to hear he's not doing well. Argo and I are thinking of you and sending our positive energy your way! When I see how much Argo has aged in the 3 years I've been lucky enough to have him, I realize how important it is to live fully in each and every moment I have with him. I know you are doing that with Kramer and I know you have many more moments to treasure together.

big hugs from Lizzie and Argo

 

[3K9Mom]

Quote:
Significant associations between omega-3 consumption and cancer risk were reported for lung cancer in two studies; for breast cancer in one; for prostate cancer in one; and for skin cancer in one. However, for lung cancer, one of the significant associations was for increased cancer risk and the other was for decreased risk (four other risk ratios were not significant for lung cancer). For breast cancer, five other estimates did not show a significant association. Only one study assessed skin cancer risk. No effects were reported for cancers of the aerodigestive tract, bladder cancer, colorectal cancer, lymphoma, ovarian cancer, pancreatic cancer, or stomach cancer. Thus, omega-3 fatty acids do not appear to decrease overall cancer risk.

http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/o3cansum.htm


antioxidants and free-radicals:

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/antiox.html

BUT:

Quote:
But as a recent review in the journal Cancer Research (Vol. 63, No. 15: 4295-4298) points out, cancer patients should be careful about using antioxidant supplements. Medical experts don't really know yet whether antioxidant supplements are helpful or harmful for cancer prevention and treatment.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_2_1x_Antioxidants_and_Cancer_The_Jurys_Still_Out.asp

As Diana mentioned, selenium is being heralded as being a preventative and possible treatment for cancer. Donald J Lisk of Cornell has done the major studies, so it might be worth it for you to drop by Cornell during your spare time and ask around.

The key thing is that you have to hull the Brazil nuts yourself. Garlic also has selenium. Again, it has to be fresh garlic.

http://www.usaweekend.com/food/carper_archive/961006carper_eatsmart.html

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?u=13122

If Kramer were my dog (I feel like he is), I would continue to give him the supplements he needs for joint health (for quality of life), and if that doesn't include vitamin B and C, I'd add those. Why? Both of those are water soluble. He will urinate what he doesn't need. They're processed through the kidneys, which I assume are in pretty good shape. Vitamin B helps the body during periods of stress, and Vitamin C helps support the immune system. I don't know what your B injections include. If they're full spectrum B vitamins, you don't even need B capsules. If they're just B12s, you may wish to supplement with oral B.

The "Super B complex" pill (by Nature Made) actually has the full range of Bs and Vitamin C too. Since Kramer is resistant to pills these days, this might be a way to combine pills. I like Ester-C, but when we have to make good use of the pills our dogs WILL take, 2-in-1 pills sometimes makes sense.

I'd also break out my nutcracker and grate some Brazil nuts over his pound cake. And I'd join him bite for bite.

 

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

HA! Still confused! Sorry everyone who is trying to help-I am an overanalyzer and that makes the whole analysis paralysis a common event. But thank you for helping and as I re-read this thread throughout the day for things I missed I am making notes-you have no idea how helpful each comment is-whether it has health advice, personal advice, or just a hello.

Sticking with the milk thistle for sure. Hard to find it in liquid form without the alcohol around here. What is the deal with that-why would you support the liver with grain alcohol? You support garbage can parties in fraternities with grain alcohol!

Would something like this be a little much to deal with for a tumor?
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?pro...rentPage=family We actually have a GNC around here.

I have been trying to get spinach in him. He's terrible! This morning his breakfast was a bison steak-which he loved. I cooked the spinach in with it. No go. The bison that had the most spinach on it he left until he could nose it off. Then for lunch, ground beef with spinach and eggs which was a bust. The pack said yay, big bunch of leftovers! For supper, tilapia, hold the spinach, he ate two pieces in record time.

I did get liverwurst-is that similar? I may break down and get some chicken livers and cook them up-is there a way to do it that will smell less?

Mariele barks at the smell of liver! And...I once overfed it and we had the Great Liver Explosion of 2007 if you know what I mean...it...was...awful.

And is a toxic little liver a good thing to feed someone? Anyone?

Kramer's vet said the day he saw a liver was the day he stopped eating liver. Scary thought!

I think my fear with all these supplements is that we don't know what kind of tumor it is and the bleeding factor. Some seem to do one thing-help suppress tumor growth-but decrease packed cell volume or clotting factors or something. Then others do the opposite. I think I will google those things together. Duh. Or am I maybe overthinking all of this...

I have been looking at this stuff:
http://www.b-naturals.com/by-condition-c-23

Their transfer factors and k-9 immunity:
http://www.alohamedicinals.ca/pet.htm

This stuff:
https://www.figuerola.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=36

And this stuff:
http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?...4CD1CB959C58FB2

He gets the Canine Plus Senior vitamin-as a treat. Cholodin-as a treat. Was getting Synovi G3 but doesn't like it, so I am giving him Glycoflex now-as a treat. Trying to get the DMG in-like a med. Then the milk thistle-like a med. Might be able to get some C in him. He's also taking meds-so that's the deal. Pred, proin, pepcid, clavamox, tylan, tramadol. A lot-but this combo seems to be working well right now.

He got B12 and B complex shots. One smelled! I want to smell it again-it's bad, but strangely alluring.

And he's eating what he likes.

AND five more days of Kramer being Kramer. So I have no complaints.

Thanks again and take care everyone!

 

[BowWowMeow]

Check onlynaturalpet.com too. They definitely have milk thistle w/out grain alcohol.

The spinach--I puree all veggies in the cuisinart so they cannot pick them out. If the taste if overwhelming him then use a little less.

I am using powdered Ester-C right now and that's easy to disguise. Even Chama, who is Kramer in a different body, doesn't mind that.

I'm very glad to hear that he's doing so well, running down hills and everything. If it were Chama she would have taken off after a bunny. It's like Monty Python, "Nope, not dead yet!" They might be giving us a heart attack but they're feeling pretty darn good!

 

[LisaT]

3K9, regarding this quote above:
But as a recent review in the journal Cancer Research (Vol. 63, No. 15: 4295-4298) points out, cancer patients should be careful about using antioxidant supplements. Medical experts don't really know yet whether antioxidant supplements are helpful or harmful for cancer prevention and treatment.

That's actually not true. There are some very well studied things that help, some that don't seem to, some that make chemo work better, some that help with the side effect of chemo, etc. That blurb is one of those things that you see from the conventional side of things. I have seen many of those studies and it's a crime that more DOCTORS don't pay attention to them. <<sorry, sore spot with me>>

I will try to get back and look over some of the links -- gotta go tend to the mutts right now.

Give Kramer some snuggles from me -- although he might be overfull of snuggles these past couple of days....is that possible????

 

[LisaT]

Misc stuff, in no order.

A side effect of chondroitin can be decreased hemocrit and internal bleeding? Who knew?
http://www.home-remedies.info/herbal-medicines/chondroitin.htm
Looks like adequan is okay: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/1380.htm
It might look like glucosamine is a good thing: http://tinyurl.com/94t3el
and maybe, for healthy dogs, the G&C together normalize each other? Last paragraph on this page:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_199902/ai_n8832644/pg_6

Thoughts on the Metacam seem reasonable to me...I would wonder about that too..


If it's a large benign tumor with lots of vessels, it might be what they call a hemangioma? I remember the doctor talking about these -- lots of danger of bleeding.

<span style="color: #660000">The potential efficacy of omega-3 fatty acids as anti-angiogenic agents in benign vascular tumors of infancy.

Med Hypotheses. 2006;66(6):1121-4. Epub 2006 Feb 24.
Sterescu AE, Rousseau-Harsany E, Farrell C, Powell J, David M, Dubois J.
Division of Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Nutrition, Hospital for Sick
Children, Toronto, Ont., Canada. anca.sterescu@sickkids.ca

Hemangiomas of infancy are benign vascular tumors frequently encountered in pediatrics. Medical treatment (corticosteroids, interferon, chemotherapy, embolization and radiation) in high-risk hemangioma cases could greatly benefit from the addition of new and safer therapies. The rapid growth of hemangiomas during the proliferative phase occurs secondary to a process of local uncontrolled angiogenesis, involving potent mediators such as vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF). We hypothesize that omega-3 fatty acids, naturally occurring nutrients of proven health benefit to infants, could become an alternative or an adjuvant treatment for hemangiomas, by slowing down their rapid proliferation phase through anti-angiogenic and anti-tumoral effects. Suggested mechanisms of action of omega-3 fatty acids include the downregulation of VEGF and bFGF, and the suppression of pro-angiogenic eicosanoids such as cylooxygenase-2. In this article, we review recent animal and human studies using dietary omega-3 fatty acids supplements, alone or in conjunction with chemotherapy, for the treatment of a variety of tumors dependent on angiogenesis for growth. Available murine hemangioma models offer the opportunity to determine optimal omega-3 fatty acid dose, while taking in account related immunohistochemical markers, clinical outcome and secondary effects, before planning clinical trials. Lessons learned in hemangiomas of infancy may have a broad impact in understanding the phenomenon of dysregulated angiogenesis in cancer research. </span>

I don't buy those mega-studies on the benefits of omega-3's in cancer in either, for a whole list of reasons. There are lots of bad studies out there -- and it depends on a number of things. Here's a study where 0-3's are helpful in chemo resistance in some pancreatic cancer, which is huge, as there aren't many options for pancreatic cancer: http://tinyurl.com/7nhupa

And then do you measure the value in o-3's on their ability to prevent cancer, or to survive it? http://tinyurl.com/9d2mld

If I recall, 0-3's are important to keep cancer patients from eating so that they starve themselves. A book I just started said that a large number of cancer patients actually die from starvation.

For the iron -- will HRH eat hardboiled eggs? I think the yolks are higher in iron, and also can readily be absorbed. Prune juice? Iron does need an acidic environment to be absorbed -- iron supplements do sometimes have vitamin C in them, now that I think about it.

L-carnitine may help with the hemotocrit and also with the stability of the RBCs. The studies are conflicting. I added this for Indy's heart, and I think it is partially the cause of her high RBC and HCT. For Indy, this is a bad thing.
http://revmedvet.com/artdes-us.php?id=1647
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14708668

According to this article, for liver disease, twice the number of water soluable vitamins should be given, and for coagulation, K-1, use E, no extra A or D, though I would take that to mean outside of a normal multi. The K will help with the bleeding. This article only focuses on the typical liver diseases, though, not what Kramer is dealing with.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/128/12/2733S

I think that 3K9 has good advice above.

 

[LisaT]

more misc stuff -- just got to your last post Jean

I don't know about that liver cleanse -- my first thought is extreme caution, and I don't think I would use it. Maybe once everything is stable, but I would be nervous, and certainly now with blood levels that need close monitoring.

As for the liver, I would only feed either veal/calf liver, or organic. I've seen those "old livers" and they don't look so good. So feeding toxic liver to fight a toxic liver, I agree, doesn't sound good.

Btw, I don't think you are over thinking or over analyzing. There aren't enough folks out there that "know" how all this stuff fits together and that can provide the exact info that we need to know, so you really have to put it together, with a little bit of help from all your friends

Have you decided on any particular supplements yet, other than the milk thistle? I believe that you have had Kramer on Sam-e or some supplement with it???? You never tried the Liver Support Factors, right? I can't tell what you were looking at in the b-naturals link. I bet you could email Lew Olson and she would be happy to answer any of your questions. I've been on lists where she was a poster.

I use sodium ascorbate in powdered form (they don't tolerate the other forms as well). I'm still a big believer in IP6 with inositol.

Tagamet can be powerful too (do a page search for liver): http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jul2002_cover_cimetidine_01.html

I've never trusted the K9 Immunity product because they don't list the amounts of the ingredients, etc. I found this comment on it by Lew Olson: http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/185171.html
I do like the use of a good mushroom product for cancer though.

As for Transfer Factors and Colostrum themselves, I know that they do boost the immune system, but I just don't haven't seen information to know if they can target what needs to be targeted when fighting cancer.

I guess my question about the kvvet product would be amounts too. A link to a pdf file is here: http://www.discovertransferfactor.com/TFCanineComplete.htm
Though I wonder why there is so much sunflower oil in there, which is an 0-6.

 

[Kay13411]

I just found this thread and can't tell you how sorry I am Jean.... I have always enjoyed your post on Kramer, could be because he reminded me so much of my shep/chow who has been gone now for 3 years....

I have Liver issues myself and milk thisle has always been recommended... My doctors also told me to take vit E.

Have you talked with the amimal communicator yet? Which one are you using, if you don't mind me asking. When I started reading this thread, the first thing I thought of was an communicator, I talked with one just before I lost my beagle, and it help both me and my daughter ALOT....

Please know you and Kramer are in my thoughts and prayers, thank you for taking the time to keep us all up to date on the king.

 

[Mary Jane]

Hi Jean,

You must have three Michelin stars now for the best restaurant in Jean's Packistan. It's great that Kramer has an appetite and lots of folks don't like spinach. If you want to try any liver-definitely calf's liver-not that old black shoe leather thing.

Reading two words about clotting factor deficiencies as opposed to a particular anemia-I guess everybody already knew-clotting factors are made by the liver so when the liver decides to grow a tumor instead of patiently do its work, it is possible that it reduces production of a lot of serum factors. When I did a search, the first item that came up was a treatment for a particular dog hemophilia by gene transfer-but Kramer has too much dignity to carry somebody else's genes.

I'm sorry I'm just babbling to you all-I just wish Jean and Kramer and anybody else with an ailing dog all good wishes.

MJ

 

[Brightelf]

Just checking in again. Gosh, a bison steak! Can Grimm come over??

It sounds like Kramer is really being Kramer.. liking some stuff, not liking others! How is the poundcake pill pocket thing going today? Still a hit, I hope?

We thought of Kramer and you especially today when we did our mountainside gallump along the valley. Prayers were sent, and continue to flow for HRH Kramer from us!

Thinking good thoughts-- for many good days with Kramer!

 

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Ummmm...would it be bad for me to be honest and say I am not even sure I am understanding any of this anymore?!? Like I am actually going backwards in my comprehension. Is that possible? Am I the Flowers for Algernon pet owner?

I have to work a lot today (because I could not concentrate to work when I had casual time to work) so will come back later tonight to see if I can figure any of this out. Regardless-I appreciate the help and the time people are taking to do so. Not your fault things are flying over my head like Mariele when she sees something out the front window.

Until then, yes the poundcake pill pockets work! The lure of poundcake seems to outweigh anything else. Poundcake is, so far, a weakness of his. YAY!

And he had tilapia for breakfast-he's a fan. I guess he'll have to have the second bison steak (they came two to a package) tonight for supper. I like to watch him eat that-but he doesn't like me to watch him. He wants me in the room, just not looking at him.

I'll look for nice liver? Is there such a thing? So I ask for calf liver at the store?

Shoulda grabbed one of Angie's baby cows...
Not chicken livers, right?

Thanks for the good thoughts. One day at a time, right!

 

[M&J]

Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN Like I am actually going backwards in my comprehension. Is that possible? Am I the Flowers for Algernon pet owner?

 

[Brightelf]

It's like egg salad, Jean. The day I had my first lesson at my vet's on how to do sub-Q fluids for my elderly tabby cat with kidney issues, I was so overwhelmed emotionally. I had an IV bag hanging with tubes, needles, etc on my wooden kitchen cabinet. I'd learned about flushing the line, inserting under the skin, opening the port just so. But standing there back home in my kitchen, I forgot how to make egg salad for my lunch! Emotional overload.

Hugs your way, Jean,

One day at a time for sure. While being realistic, you still can focus on the positives here: He noshed a bison steak. He appreciates Tilapia. Poundcake is his friend. He ran down the hill, just to hear you scream. He refuses some foods, just to keep you improving your culinary skills.

I wish I could supply good medical links.. I am not as astute in med stuff as some of the others here. Grimm and I are just beaming positive energy Kramer's way-- and yours. Please be good to Jean right now.

 

[LisaT]

MaryJane, I was a bit confused myself regarding the clotting factors and anemia, as we were talking about two different things. I didn't know that clotting factors were made in the liver.

Jean, one step at a time I guess. The diet is great, a few good supplements. Myamom over in health is just now putting her regimen for Mya together. I perhaps a PM to her might be helpful? Different cancers, but in a way not so, and certainly different dogs in different stages of life.

I figure that out os all this "stuff" that is posted, your gut will guide you once you get past that initial fuzzy overload part. LOTS of things help with cancers, but the art is picking the right things for this one, or this tumor (if benign). So I guess the important part is finding the path that is true for you and Kramer.

 

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Thank you! I am just going to do what I can do, let him eat what he will eat, and if I can find something good to give him, I will. Yes, myamom and I are PM-ing-we are both fighting this and in different ways-so I can give poundcake seems to be the major difference.

I think you guys are going to think I have Munchausen by Proxy-Pet here! But happy to keep this thread going and going (knock on wood). I consider these days a gift.

His Tumor-versary is January 18. I had considered that date for his Sweet 16 party too before he got sick on Tuesday. It may be far out of the realm of possibilities, and I would only hope for it if he were truly doing well, but that is a day I would like to celebrate with him. I am sure if poundcake is involved, he would too!

I am still trying to figure out tumor v clotting v anemia and what will work best for whatever it is that is the most pressing concern. Hopefully his vet will be able to tell me that. If he can't I guess it's okay that I don't know!

He had that nice light fish breakfast and was starved for lunch-so he ate yesterday's ground beef, spinach and egg reject. With cheese. With gusto. Grim, come over and have some meals with Kramer!

Then, to keep me on my toes, he asked to go with me to the Credit Union and then started in with teeth chattering-he sounded like Woody Woodpecker. I thought, wow, he helped me get him in the car, and we hit the tumor and this is it. So we go home, and as I turn on to our road, he stops. Meanwhile, I am in a pre-panic attack state, and had to go out and run with the other dogs while he ate lunch to get some of that adrenaline out.

Oh-and while I was talking on the phone for work, while outside, the other dogs were barking and I was trying to quiet them with body language (didn't work-they were really into their play and I realized I don't have a SHUT IT hand signal) so he ran and charged into the middle of the group, barking, telling them to disperse.

Thank you all again. I am just hoping that he will always be able to be Kramer. That's my biggest wish for this.

 

[AndreaG]

I just stumbled upon this post...And wanted to let you know how sorry I am for the bad news and wanted to send some hugs and kisses to both of you. Kramer is a good man, wishing him strength and dignity for all his time.
You asked earlier about how you know when they still enjoy life (favorite things, etc). For Yoda, it was very black-and-white. I was so worried it was going to be a judgement call on my part, but no, he decided all by himself. On the day he had enough, he did not want to get up anymore: didn't even try, he refused food, even grilled chicken, turned his head when I offered his tennis ball... The spark was gone from his eyes if you know what I mean. So it was everything all at once. Good old man, made it very easy for me. I can only hope it will always be this apparent.

Wishing you both many happy days together... Every hour is a gift. Hugs.

 

[WiscTiger]

Let's all send postive thoughts to Kramer that he has many many more good days left to make Jean do his bidding and special meal planning. You go Kramer, Jean loves cooking for you.

Jean too bad you weren't closer, I just gave 8 packages of beef liver to a friend of mine for her dogs. This was left from when we got our steer, no hormones or any bad stuff in that liver, but I can only eat so many meals of liver in a year.

Are you going to feed it raw or cooked. For cooked if you have some bacon grease available, put that in the pand, put some flour in a plastic bag, toss in the liver, put in the fry pan with heated oil/grease, cook about until it gets crispy, turn over. Now it out of the pan, stir in some of the flour from the bag with the remaining oil/grease, stir until well blended, now slowly add water to make a nice gravy. Human version I cook onions in the oil first.

Val

 

[Brightelf]

LOTSA good vibes sent to Kramer that he and Jean enjoy many days of her whipping up gourmet meals for The King! Maybe he might like "a nanner sammich!"

Good days are good days, Jean. He is enjoying the attention and spoiling, no doubt! Being in control, going for rides, doing many of his usual Kramer things-- has got to feel good to him. He is a lucky dog, and lucky to have you doing his bidding.

I am off to bed for now after one last walk. Sending prayers and good vibes for Kramer and Jean both.

 

[LJsMom]

Sending lots of positive thoughts out to HRH.

Lady Jane suggests pork loin cooked in the crock pot.