Thinking of you and Kramer, Jean.

 

<span style="color: #3333FF"> Saturday {{{HUGS}}}

for Jean and Kramer.</span>

 

Jean thanks for the pictures. Kramer looks good. Kramer being Kramer is a good thing, he has and will keep you on your toes for a while yet.

Val

 

The pictures say a lot to me: Jean can't let any great image of Kramer escape her and Kramer will put up with it to please her. Just two old friends together-thanks for letting us see too.

Mary Jane

 

Gosh, Jean-- he really is tolerant of you and your cam hobby!

He looks happy to be out and moving in the fresh air, smelling scents, seeing what's up. I LOVE these pictures! Please thank HRH for gracing us with a few photos of his regal countenence.

I look at these pics, and what I see is a lot of love and care. Yes, I see an old dog, too... but, remember the pic where in his younger days he was going to come down a slide? He somehow looks better now. His coat is thicker (much), he looks prouder, more in control of who he is and what is happening in his life. You make miracles, Jean-- this is a dog who has come so far. Maybe every day is a gift at this age, with or without a tumor. But Kramer himself is so special. THAT's it-- that's what it is.. in these pics, I can see that he knows how special he is.

I'm glad you nabbed some of the drippy, goopy Iams sauce! Bacon is a nice, yucky-drizzly flavor! I hope the trick with the Iams sauce helps get The King's meds into him easier.

I loved seeing him being as patient as he can for you right now with your cam. You two have such a deep, trusting relationship, even outside of the whole Packistan dynamics. Know? He's aware of your every move, your every feeling. Senior dogs are THE BEST. And Kramer rules!!

Prayers that today's a good day for HRH Kramer!

And for Jean, too!

 

Big hugs my friend!
I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner...Avamom alerted me when I called her about Mya.

Sad that we are going through this at the same time...but we can help eachother with those spread sheets...keep eachother positive...and help eachother pick out those big girl panties...

We can do it Jean! Let's kick some butt!

 

Oh Jean, I just found this thread (I haven't been on much the last few days) and I am so very sorry to hear about our dear sweet Kramer. Your doing all the right things; stay busy making even more wonderful memories you will be able to cherish the rest of your life.
Kramer, our King, is one lucky dog! I've loved watching him over the years and am thankful for the joy he's brought into so many of our lifes.
I'm sending you both lots of hugs and many prayers for more time together.

 

More hugs and I just wanted to add one more item to the possible
foods list... have you ever seen that "crabmeat blend" in the
grocery store? It's made mostly with whitefish I think. Anyway,
it was the ONLY thing one of my seniors would eat. The pieces
are stinky but you'd better believe they were hand fed. They
seemed to slide down pretty easily, too.

 

Just poking my snout in here again.. sending good thoughts your way, Jean! Prayers that Kramer is enjoying his walks, photo shoots, gourmet meals. Good thoughts being sent from Germany your way!

 

THANKS! You all keep sending those good thoughts and prayers, and Kramer will keep on truckin'! (how old is that phrase?)

Crabmeat blend is a good idea! He is a fish lover. I am a hater. So I have a hard time understanding how he can enjoy it so much. I got some Tilapia (and darned if it isn't farmed in China-so I am going to probably overcook it-it's hard to get good seafood here-if I am in Rochester anytime soon, I'm going to try to find a real seafood place) so that will be breakfast.

Or maybe lunch if I can't cook it early! He had sandwich steaks, salmon, some pork yesterday. He did not like the eggs with spinach and cheese so much. Or the gross

cottage cheese. I thought it looked good! Ruth is right-he has always been picky. I got his Tylan in him and that seems to make his belly feel better, helps his appetite. And the bacon gravy-mmmmmmmmm!

He has a problem with Tramadol-gets all spacey and weird, but I decided to try a half with him, since he seems to respond to small amounts of pain killers-and when I took him out he ran down a hill! RAN! I was yelling-OH MY GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHD! half excited and half waiting for him to explode-and he loved that.

Know what he's taking his pills in now? Poundcake. Yeah...not so good...but it's working. Sarah Lee has my eternal gratitude for her deliciously dense poundcake.

His hind end is weakish-if he stands still for a while it will sag, but if he's walking, it's pretty okay. This is more toward the end of the day. I feel the same way. Though we did take some good naps yesterday.

Some questions/thoughts for you that I have been pondering:

1. I gave him 20# doses of Metacam for the two days prior to his bleed. I am wondering (and will never know) if that might have caused the bleed. He can't be on it any more with the pred and those were two tiny doses, but, big tumor, old dog...

2. Someone suggested that the tumor is likely benign if large, because a large cancer would kill someone. His tumor last year was large, and had very low metastatic and cancerous properties-the pathologist said he would almost call it benign. Last year it was in an operable location, so it doesn't really matter, except in maybe the supplements I give him. I just thought this was an interesting thought.

3. Another person suggested that if I have him on omega 3 fatty acids or fish oil, take him off because that interferes with clotting factors. Now that is interesting-those are things of course that you say to do for cancer, but if you are looking at the tumor bleeding out-which is better? Hmmmm...and then I think is it better for him to be sloshing around with thin blood, or thick, and then I THINK it's that we are trying to get his hematocrit up, and you do that with higher packed cell volume.

Yes, every day IS a gift at this age, no matter what. Thank you all.

 

You know what's supposedly really good for cancer? Selenium, like what's found in brazil nuts.

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=btnews&dbid=18
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=95

I'm not sure how much it would help Kramer now, but I thought I'd put that out.

to King Kramer!

 

Any of the Antioxidates are helpful for cancer. Vit A, Vit E and Vit C. Antioxidants grab a free radical, bind to in and help it exit the system.

Jean I don't know what to say about the Omega 3. Are you giving and Omega 6, I was reading some where that there should be a balance of 3 and 6.

Val

 

Actually, we're all basicly awash in Omega 6's anyway..

each bite of beef, chicken, turkey, agri-farmed foods we eat have been grainfed, cornfed.. full of omega 6s.

I would ask the vet before adding the omega 3s then.. we don't want to worry about bleeding, but, maybe it wouldn't effect it anyway? The vet may know best!

Ulrich's lung tumor was a whopper. (really, it was the size of a Whopper Jr. w/cheese) Even though technically it was "a carcinoma," it just sat there, being HUGE. No lymph node involvement, no spread, no little buddy tumors, nada. Sometimes these big tumors can be like a fat guy in a recliner with a bag of chips and beer

... not going anywhere fast. May Kramer's be a lazy one, too!

I love the fact that he RAN down the hill-- just to make you scream. It sounds like he is feeling relatively good! The half a Tram is a good idea.

When do you see the vet again? If this is a big tumor that just stays put, and we just want it to NOT start bleeding again.. could the vet suggest anything at all for keeping the clotting going well in his blood?

Maybe the hind end weakness at the end of the day is med related? From a drug he is taking-- or from one he can NOT have anymore, like the Metacam? Just thinking here. Stuff to ask the vets-- I bet Jean that you are queen of great Qs and lists of great Qs for vets!

YAY that HRH enjoy the gross bacon sauce!

Can poundcake be drizzled in bacon sauce? You think of great way to get the meds inside him, Jean.

Prayers streaming out to you and to Kramer from Patti and Grimm!

 

I know a little about blood cell development in the mouse-that I tried to extrapolate to my mother's first leukemia. I guess it might apply to canine biology. Besides, Jean knows best anyway.

One particular problem with Kramer (and my mother for that matter) is age. When we get anemic for whatever reason-and that can be a reduction of red blood cells or particular kinds of white cells or the little guys you need for clotting, platelets-you call up stem cells from the bone marrow and they turn into what you need like magic. With age, stem cells decrease and their potential for making the actual cells that work in the blood, spleen, etc just goes down as well. It's come to such a point in my mother's case that she gets an injection of a specific growth factor to stimulate growth of the cells she needs. The trade-off is that the same growth factor can also stimulate tumor growth.

Does he like liver? Seriously-liver or spinach for iron-I don't think it could hurt.

All the best from sunny southern NY.

Mary Jane

 

Oh Kramer, making your mom worry as you went RUNNING!!!!!

I have no idea what it is like to be in your shoes, Jean, but please stop wondering if you did this or that if things would be different now. We have no way of knowing. Look at the love and wonderful years you've given the King and leave it at that. Let HRH eat whatever he'd like, do whatever he'd like, and live his life - be it days, weeks or months longer - however he'd like - making you crazy

Lots of hugs to you and slurps to Kramer from his little red-headed girl in NJ. Gracie

s Kramer!!

 

Dear Jean,


I'm so sorry I just found this thread---haven't been on much in awhile. Thanks for posting those gorgeous shots of your beautiful boy. I'm so sorry to hear he's not doing well. Argo and I are thinking of you and sending our positive energy your way! When I see how much Argo has aged in the 3 years I've been lucky enough to have him, I realize how important it is to live fully in each and every moment I have with him. I know you are doing that with Kramer and I know you have many more moments to treasure together.

big hugs from Lizzie and Argo

 

Quote:
Significant associations between omega-3 consumption and cancer risk were reported for lung cancer in two studies; for breast cancer in one; for prostate cancer in one; and for skin cancer in one. However, for lung cancer, one of the significant associations was for increased cancer risk and the other was for decreased risk (four other risk ratios were not significant for lung cancer). For breast cancer, five other estimates did not show a significant association. Only one study assessed skin cancer risk. No effects were reported for cancers of the aerodigestive tract, bladder cancer, colorectal cancer, lymphoma, ovarian cancer, pancreatic cancer, or stomach cancer. Thus, omega-3 fatty acids do not appear to decrease overall cancer risk.

http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/o3cansum.htm


antioxidants and free-radicals:

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/antiox.html

BUT:

Quote:
But as a recent review in the journal Cancer Research (Vol. 63, No. 15: 4295-4298) points out, cancer patients should be careful about using antioxidant supplements. Medical experts don't really know yet whether antioxidant supplements are helpful or harmful for cancer prevention and treatment.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_2_1x_Antioxidants_and_Cancer_The_Jurys_Still_Out.asp

As Diana mentioned, selenium is being heralded as being a preventative and possible treatment for cancer. Donald J Lisk of Cornell has done the major studies, so it might be worth it for you to drop by Cornell during your spare time and ask around.

The key thing is that you have to hull the Brazil nuts yourself. Garlic also has selenium. Again, it has to be fresh garlic.

http://www.usaweekend.com/food/carper_archive/961006carper_eatsmart.html

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?u=13122

If Kramer were my dog (I feel like he is), I would continue to give him the supplements he needs for joint health (for quality of life), and if that doesn't include vitamin B and C, I'd add those. Why? Both of those are water soluble. He will urinate what he doesn't need. They're processed through the kidneys, which I assume are in pretty good shape. Vitamin B helps the body during periods of stress, and Vitamin C helps support the immune system. I don't know what your B injections include. If they're full spectrum B vitamins, you don't even need B capsules. If they're just B12s, you may wish to supplement with oral B.

The "Super B complex" pill (by Nature Made) actually has the full range of Bs and Vitamin C too. Since Kramer is resistant to pills these days, this might be a way to combine pills. I like Ester-C, but when we have to make good use of the pills our dogs WILL take, 2-in-1 pills sometimes makes sense.

I'd also break out my nutcracker and grate some Brazil nuts over his pound cake. And I'd join him bite for bite.

 

HA! Still confused! Sorry everyone who is trying to help-I am an overanalyzer and that makes the whole analysis paralysis a common event. But thank you for helping and as I re-read this thread throughout the day for things I missed I am making notes-you have no idea how helpful each comment is-whether it has health advice, personal advice, or just a hello.

Sticking with the milk thistle for sure. Hard to find it in liquid form without the alcohol around here. What is the deal with that-why would you support the liver with grain alcohol? You support garbage can parties in fraternities with grain alcohol!

Would something like this be a little much to deal with for a tumor?
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?pro...rentPage=family We actually have a GNC around here.

I have been trying to get spinach in him. He's terrible! This morning his breakfast was a bison steak-which he loved. I cooked the spinach in with it. No go. The bison that had the most spinach on it he left until he could nose it off. Then for lunch, ground beef with spinach and eggs which was a bust. The pack said yay, big bunch of leftovers! For supper, tilapia, hold the spinach, he ate two pieces in record time.

I did get liverwurst-is that similar? I may break down and get some chicken livers and cook them up-is there a way to do it that will smell less?

Mariele barks at the smell of liver! And...I once overfed it and we had the Great Liver Explosion of 2007 if you know what I mean...it...was...awful.

And is a toxic little liver a good thing to feed someone? Anyone?

Kramer's vet said the day he saw a liver was the day he stopped eating liver. Scary thought!

I think my fear with all these supplements is that we don't know what kind of tumor it is and the bleeding factor. Some seem to do one thing-help suppress tumor growth-but decrease packed cell volume or clotting factors or something. Then others do the opposite. I think I will google those things together. Duh. Or am I maybe overthinking all of this...

I have been looking at this stuff:
http://www.b-naturals.com/by-condition-c-23

Their transfer factors and k-9 immunity:
http://www.alohamedicinals.ca/pet.htm

This stuff:
https://www.figuerola.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=36

And this stuff:
http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?...4CD1CB959C58FB2

He gets the Canine Plus Senior vitamin-as a treat. Cholodin-as a treat. Was getting Synovi G3 but doesn't like it, so I am giving him Glycoflex now-as a treat. Trying to get the DMG in-like a med. Then the milk thistle-like a med. Might be able to get some C in him. He's also taking meds-so that's the deal. Pred, proin, pepcid, clavamox, tylan, tramadol. A lot-but this combo seems to be working well right now.

He got B12 and B complex shots. One smelled! I want to smell it again-it's bad, but strangely alluring.

And he's eating what he likes.

AND five more days of Kramer being Kramer. So I have no complaints.

Thanks again and take care everyone!

 

Check onlynaturalpet.com too. They definitely have milk thistle w/out grain alcohol.

The spinach--I puree all veggies in the cuisinart so they cannot pick them out. If the taste if overwhelming him then use a little less.

I am using powdered Ester-C right now and that's easy to disguise. Even Chama, who is Kramer in a different body, doesn't mind that.

I'm very glad to hear that he's doing so well, running down hills and everything. If it were Chama she would have taken off after a bunny. It's like Monty Python, "Nope, not dead yet!" They might be giving us a heart attack but they're feeling pretty darn good!

 

3K9, regarding this quote above:
But as a recent review in the journal Cancer Research (Vol. 63, No. 15: 4295-4298) points out, cancer patients should be careful about using antioxidant supplements. Medical experts don't really know yet whether antioxidant supplements are helpful or harmful for cancer prevention and treatment.

That's actually not true. There are some very well studied things that help, some that don't seem to, some that make chemo work better, some that help with the side effect of chemo, etc. That blurb is one of those things that you see from the conventional side of things. I have seen many of those studies and it's a crime that more DOCTORS don't pay attention to them. <<sorry, sore spot with me>>

I will try to get back and look over some of the links -- gotta go tend to the mutts right now.

Give Kramer some snuggles from me -- although he might be overfull of snuggles these past couple of days....is that possible????

 

Misc stuff, in no order.

A side effect of chondroitin can be decreased hemocrit and internal bleeding? Who knew?
http://www.home-remedies.info/herbal-medicines/chondroitin.htm
Looks like adequan is okay: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/1380.htm
It might look like glucosamine is a good thing: http://tinyurl.com/94t3el
and maybe, for healthy dogs, the G&C together normalize each other? Last paragraph on this page:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_199902/ai_n8832644/pg_6

Thoughts on the Metacam seem reasonable to me...I would wonder about that too..


If it's a large benign tumor with lots of vessels, it might be what they call a hemangioma? I remember the doctor talking about these -- lots of danger of bleeding.

<span style="color: #660000">The potential efficacy of omega-3 fatty acids as anti-angiogenic agents in benign vascular tumors of infancy.

Med Hypotheses. 2006;66(6):1121-4. Epub 2006 Feb 24.
Sterescu AE, Rousseau-Harsany E, Farrell C, Powell J, David M, Dubois J.
Division of Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Nutrition, Hospital for Sick
Children, Toronto, Ont., Canada. anca.sterescu@sickkids.ca

Hemangiomas of infancy are benign vascular tumors frequently encountered in pediatrics. Medical treatment (corticosteroids, interferon, chemotherapy, embolization and radiation) in high-risk hemangioma cases could greatly benefit from the addition of new and safer therapies. The rapid growth of hemangiomas during the proliferative phase occurs secondary to a process of local uncontrolled angiogenesis, involving potent mediators such as vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF). We hypothesize that omega-3 fatty acids, naturally occurring nutrients of proven health benefit to infants, could become an alternative or an adjuvant treatment for hemangiomas, by slowing down their rapid proliferation phase through anti-angiogenic and anti-tumoral effects. Suggested mechanisms of action of omega-3 fatty acids include the downregulation of VEGF and bFGF, and the suppression of pro-angiogenic eicosanoids such as cylooxygenase-2. In this article, we review recent animal and human studies using dietary omega-3 fatty acids supplements, alone or in conjunction with chemotherapy, for the treatment of a variety of tumors dependent on angiogenesis for growth. Available murine hemangioma models offer the opportunity to determine optimal omega-3 fatty acid dose, while taking in account related immunohistochemical markers, clinical outcome and secondary effects, before planning clinical trials. Lessons learned in hemangiomas of infancy may have a broad impact in understanding the phenomenon of dysregulated angiogenesis in cancer research. </span>

I don't buy those mega-studies on the benefits of omega-3's in cancer in either, for a whole list of reasons. There are lots of bad studies out there -- and it depends on a number of things. Here's a study where 0-3's are helpful in chemo resistance in some pancreatic cancer, which is huge, as there aren't many options for pancreatic cancer: http://tinyurl.com/7nhupa

And then do you measure the value in o-3's on their ability to prevent cancer, or to survive it? http://tinyurl.com/9d2mld

If I recall, 0-3's are important to keep cancer patients from eating so that they starve themselves. A book I just started said that a large number of cancer patients actually die from starvation.

For the iron -- will HRH eat hardboiled eggs? I think the yolks are higher in iron, and also can readily be absorbed. Prune juice? Iron does need an acidic environment to be absorbed -- iron supplements do sometimes have vitamin C in them, now that I think about it.

L-carnitine may help with the hemotocrit and also with the stability of the RBCs. The studies are conflicting. I added this for Indy's heart, and I think it is partially the cause of her high RBC and HCT. For Indy, this is a bad thing.
http://revmedvet.com/artdes-us.php?id=1647
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14708668

According to this article, for liver disease, twice the number of water soluable vitamins should be given, and for coagulation, K-1, use E, no extra A or D, though I would take that to mean outside of a normal multi. The K will help with the bleeding. This article only focuses on the typical liver diseases, though, not what Kramer is dealing with.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/128/12/2733S

I think that 3K9 has good advice above.

 

more misc stuff -- just got to your last post Jean

I don't know about that liver cleanse -- my first thought is extreme caution, and I don't think I would use it. Maybe once everything is stable, but I would be nervous, and certainly now with blood levels that need close monitoring.

As for the liver, I would only feed either veal/calf liver, or organic. I've seen those "old livers" and they don't look so good. So feeding toxic liver to fight a toxic liver, I agree, doesn't sound good.

Btw, I don't think you are over thinking or over analyzing. There aren't enough folks out there that "know" how all this stuff fits together and that can provide the exact info that we need to know, so you really have to put it together, with a little bit of help from all your friends

Have you decided on any particular supplements yet, other than the milk thistle? I believe that you have had Kramer on Sam-e or some supplement with it???? You never tried the Liver Support Factors, right? I can't tell what you were looking at in the b-naturals link. I bet you could email Lew Olson and she would be happy to answer any of your questions. I've been on lists where she was a poster.

I use sodium ascorbate in powdered form (they don't tolerate the other forms as well). I'm still a big believer in IP6 with inositol.

Tagamet can be powerful too (do a page search for liver): http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jul2002_cover_cimetidine_01.html

I've never trusted the K9 Immunity product because they don't list the amounts of the ingredients, etc. I found this comment on it by Lew Olson: http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/185171.html
I do like the use of a good mushroom product for cancer though.

As for Transfer Factors and Colostrum themselves, I know that they do boost the immune system, but I just don't haven't seen information to know if they can target what needs to be targeted when fighting cancer.

I guess my question about the kvvet product would be amounts too. A link to a pdf file is here: http://www.discovertransferfactor.com/TFCanineComplete.htm
Though I wonder why there is so much sunflower oil in there, which is an 0-6.

 

I just found this thread and can't tell you how sorry I am Jean.... I have always enjoyed your post on Kramer, could be because he reminded me so much of my shep/chow who has been gone now for 3 years....

I have Liver issues myself and milk thisle has always been recommended... My doctors also told me to take vit E.

Have you talked with the amimal communicator yet? Which one are you using, if you don't mind me asking. When I started reading this thread, the first thing I thought of was an communicator, I talked with one just before I lost my beagle, and it help both me and my daughter ALOT....

Please know you and Kramer are in my thoughts and prayers, thank you for taking the time to keep us all up to date on the king.

 

Hi Jean,

You must have three Michelin stars now for the best restaurant in Jean's Packistan. It's great that Kramer has an appetite and lots of folks don't like spinach. If you want to try any liver-definitely calf's liver-not that old black shoe leather thing.

Reading two words about clotting factor deficiencies as opposed to a particular anemia-I guess everybody already knew-clotting factors are made by the liver so when the liver decides to grow a tumor instead of patiently do its work, it is possible that it reduces production of a lot of serum factors. When I did a search, the first item that came up was a treatment for a particular dog hemophilia by gene transfer-but Kramer has too much dignity to carry somebody else's genes.

I'm sorry I'm just babbling to you all-I just wish Jean and Kramer and anybody else with an ailing dog all good wishes.

MJ

 

Just checking in again. Gosh, a bison steak! Can Grimm come over??

It sounds like Kramer is really being Kramer.. liking some stuff, not liking others! How is the poundcake pill pocket thing going today? Still a hit, I hope?

We thought of Kramer and you especially today when we did our mountainside gallump along the valley. Prayers were sent, and continue to flow for HRH Kramer from us!

Thinking good thoughts-- for many good days with Kramer!