[Guardyan]

The AKC standard needs to be changed. 90 degrees of hind angulation is too much. Period.

 

[Jax08]

Jackie - I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to have a discussion with you on bettering the system. It will never be any better if people just throw up their hands and say "never going to happen'.

As far as people sitting on their dogs for a year or more...That's what happens under the SV system and it seems to work just fine. In fact, the SV is now requiring hips and elbows to pass to trial at the WUSV. It's also on the table to require the breed survey to participate. The SV is doing all the things I'm suggesting. So why is it not possible to enact changes in the AKC and parent clubs in the same manner?

"the AKC point system" but it's just a registry? Do you not see the conflict I see? Then maybe the AKC point system needs to change.

 

[Jax08]

The AKC standard needs to be changed. 90 degrees of hind angulation is too much. Period.

Doesn't the AKC standard come from the GSDCA? And isn't the GSDCA a full member of the WUSV? So is there a different standard? Or is there just that much difference in the interpretation?

 

[Xeph]

I'm not arguing. Just responding. I'm also being realistic. The system isn't going to change, so you have to change what is in it. That's not going to happen just griping on the side lines.

As far as people sitting on their dogs for a year or more...That's what happens under the SV system

But they can still enter conformation shows as baby puppies and get a rating.

The system is so vastly different as to not even be comparable.

"the AKC point system" but it's just a registry? Do you not see the conflict I see? Then maybe the AKC point system needs to change

Also not going to happen. The point system has been around for decades, and the way the system is set up is part of what makes AKC AKC. There can be talk of change, sure, but it needs to be within the realms of reality.

AKC has shows going on almost every day of the year. We have an all breed system, not a specialty system (Which is what the SV is...they deal with ONE breed of dog). There are really only two big all breed shows in this country. Westminster and Eukanuba. Some may count the National Dog Show, but, most don't.

And the "big show" every year for most serious breeders is their national specialty, not the televised show. So it all comes back to the parent clubs and them needing to decide what requirements they put in place

ETA:
We posted at the same time

Doesn't the AKC standard come from the GSDCA?

Yes

And isn't the GSDCA a full member of the WUSV?

Yes

So is there a different standard? Or is there just that much difference in the interpretation?

The standards are different.

AKC standard calls for matching fore and hindquarter angles of 90 degrees with a height to length ration of 10:8.5, SV standard calls for matching angles of around 120 degrees, and they are looking for a dog that, while still longer than tall, is shorter bodied than the ratio the AKC standard has set

 

[Jax08]

So it all comes back to the parent clubs and them needing to decide what requirements they put in place

And in my first post, I did say thru the GSDCA. So then lets discuss that. How do they enact changes within the club create a better balance?

If the GSDCA is a full member of the WUSV but creating its own standards then it need to have its membership revoked from the WUSV. Period. They are creating a different breed if the standard is different.

 

[Xeph]

How do they enact changes within the club create a better balance?

Ha. Hahahaha. Ha. Haha.

They don't. It's an issue that has been hashed over again and again. They are happy with things as they are, in terms of the standard. "This is a free country! If you want all the rules, go to Germany!" is a frequent argument. The membership does not support adding any sort of sport requirement, and point to things like the AOE and PAM if that's what you want.

If the GSDCA is a full member of the WUSV but creating its own standards then it need to have its membership revoked from the WUSV

Clearly the WUSV has no intention of doing that. I do not understand the ins and outs of the agreement with the GSDCA and WUSV, I only know that it is complicated and convoluted from what people have tried to explain to me over the years.

 

[Jax08]

This discussion is pointless.

First, I don't appreciate your "Ha. Hahahaha. Ha. Haha." That adds nothing to a discussion.

Second, if there are different standards, then it's a different breed that looks similar. If there is no desire to prove a working dog can work, then what is being produced can not be discussed as apples to apples.

 

[cliffson1]

Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!

 

[Xeph]

First, I don't appreciate your "Ha. Hahahaha. Ha. Haha." That adds nothing to a discussion.

I think you misinterpreted what my laughing was about. I wasn't laughing at the question, but rather the idea that people in the club could agree that perhaps we should make a move towards doing more with our dogs.

They don't.

At all.

That's one of the reasons why there is Select and Select Excellent given at the national. Select is given to dogs that are not OFA H/E, Select Excellent is given to the dogs that are (A Select dog can become Select Excellent after they get their OFA scores).

 

[Xeph]

Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!

I don't disagree with you here. It's disappointing, but there isn't a dog from any one line that can do every single thing I want to do.

 

[Jax08]

Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!

Now THAT is the best analogy I've ever seen!

 

[carmspack]

quoting Xeph
"Then people need to bring out their own animals to show if they don't like it. That's what I did. I'm doing ok for myself"
Firstly I am complaining because of a change. Go back into the GSD Reviews and the dogs were very similar to direct German imports right up until the early to mid 70's and then there was a landslide of change in North America and Germany , not for the better, at the hands of the Martin brothers and Moses .
Why in the beginning you had Bihari, Loeb , Mann , Migliori and even juggernaut Covy-Tucker Hill all with good basic dogs with a bit of an "American" touch by which I mean a pretty attractive dog . If you were to go to the Covy-Tucker Hill website you would be able to see an unfolding from balanced to extreme - all within a 20 year period . Reno of Lakeside was probably at the tipping point.
I was also privileged to sit with Ann Mesdag who gave me a pretty good tutorial - training my eye, asking me to evaluate each entry when we were at one of the bigger "Nationals".
Xeph said ""Can't complain about a lack of change if you aren't going to involve yourself "

so this is not involved ?

I handled dogs in the "American" show ring -- put my own out there -- had a few champions which would rate well against the standard . One is Carmspack Most . I'll have to get Saphire to take a picture . Closest resemblance would be to Yoncalla's Mike, or his better brother Wilhelm a d Winterzeit.
Had Best in Breeds, same dog same day , High in Trial .
Major points - finished in 3 shows , all majors .
Bred ROMC bitches .
Showed under SV system.
Handled under all-breed judges and specialty.
Was a card carrying member of the GSDCofA and GSDCofC - got all the Reviews , Red Books etc right up until the late 90's .

I did go to the National Specialty GSDCofC . Dwindling entries .

In addition to constant information about structure from friend Linda Shaw, and her book which I have added to my reference library - I do have von Stephanitz , Lanting's, Barwig's, Willis' , Elliot, Wooton, book titles
Structure in Action , other matrial Canine Cineradiography, SV magazines, Reviews , GSD Quarterly, and now Shaw's new entry.

Structure matters . It matters for work.

The structure exhibited by show lines - Am and German , are not functional , not durable, have a negative impact on the ability to perform in work .

We need to see some firebrand youngsters get in there and overturn the current status quo powers that be.

Education. Still involved with this , so clearly not sitting at the side lines.

 

[Doc]

I am currently re-reading "Working Dogs" by Humphries (1924). A fascinating record of a breeding plan that wanted to produce dogs that could "work" (in the real world) and still show.
In my opinion, there aren't many breeding plans based on producing real world work dogs that can also enter the show ring. The split has driven a real gap in the German shepherd. Unfortunately, the younger population of dog lovers do not care to get involved in a past- time that is so full of egos and mistrust. And it is seen by the dwindling numbers in shows and sport. Sad but true.

 

[selzer]

When we take photos with our digital camera, we take 160, throw out 152. Some are butts and tails. Some show the dog in a less than stellar light.

If I followed around any person's dog on this thread for a number of days with my camera, I could snap some photos that you would not want posted of your dog.

And yet, that dog in person is beautiful, and he does not look deformed -- you live with him, he is stellar.

Pictures can lie.

They can also tell us what to look for in a dog, so that we can maybe see something that is there, but not very noticeable in person. This does not mean the dog is deformed. But it may mean that we may want to breed away from some things and toward others.

By looking at photos of Ninja and Milla, I found that Ninja is a trotter, and Milla is a pacer. By observing them, I found this was true, after realizing it on the photos. Neither dog looks funny in how they move. It just is.

Now we have heard from someone who has seen the dog in question in person, and they say he is a nice dog, and that his temperament is good. I am sure the locomotion in the ring did not show the dog running in a deformed way.

As for requiring dogs to have a working title to be shown, well, why not require dogs to have a CH to be eligible for other venues. Can't do IPO without a CH on your dogs, and IPO will go down. Why? Because the IPO dogs are not going to get CH points, not all of them, and their owners are not going to want to go through that -- that is not their forte or their passion.

Show dog owners do not necessarily have a passion for other venues.

At the nationals, besides the GVs, there are VA dogs named. These dogs have to have their hips and elbows pass OFA and I am not sure what other hoops they have to have in order to qualify. Maybe to be named GV or VA, a dog ought to have some qualifications besides the show ring, a TT, a CD or CDx, the whole nine yards for health screenings, and progeny that have either points in conformation or performance.

I think that might be good for American Bred dogs. But I am not going to breed to them even if they do all these things. I like the German show line dogs. So it doesn't matter to me at all.

And all the WL people aren't going to breed to them either. The dogs can be herding champions, like Dallas was, or Agility or Obedience, but that will not make WL people want to use them as stud dogs. Nor would they, the owners of the VA dogs want to breed to the working line dogs.

It just isn't happening.

For show line people to come on here and diss your dogs because they do not have CH before their names, well, that would go over like a ton of bricks, but over and over the working line folks think that they can fix the show lines by requiring titles.

It is pointless really. I wish everyone could just be happy with the dogs that they like, and let others be happy with the dogs that they like. It is the feeling of inferiority that spurs people to point out the negatives in others. Somehow it makes them feel good about theirs.

 

[Jax08]

I think you misinterpreted what my laughing was about. I wasn't laughing at the question, but rather the idea that people in the club could agree that perhaps we should make a move towards doing more with our dogs.

They don't.

At all.

That's one of the reasons why there is Select and Select Excellent given at the national. Select is given to dogs that are not OFA H/E, Select Excellent is given to the dogs that are (A Select dog can become Select Excellent after they get their OFA scores).

Thanks for that explanation. Internet is hard to interpret!

So if the Excellent require health testing, why not had working titles to that as well? It could be agility, obedience, herding. Just something in addition to show the dog has some working ability.

 

[Xeph]

The simple answer is that the old guard doesn't want to do that. They instead award dogs with a select title the title of AOE if they get a performance title in an approved sport.

I wish they required a higher level title for attaining an AOE, but things like an RN suffice :-/

I am personally going after herding championships with my dogs, but that will take several years to complete.

 

[Jax08]

That's a shame they set the bar so low. It should be a high level title. Novice titles should not even be an option.

And I saw the pictures of your dogs herding on the facebook page. They looked good!!

 

[lhczth]

As far as people sitting on their dogs for a year or more...That's what happens under the SV system

But they can still enter conformation shows as baby puppies and get a rating.

Just for clarification, the ratings for baby puppies does not count nor does the rating for adult untitled dogs. A dog must be at least a year to receive a G or SG that counts towards the breed survey. People show in the puppy classes and the adult untitled class for experience. So, people would still have that options of showing their puppies for experience, but could not earn points or championships until they were at least a year (which really is still too young).

And, yes, I realize it isn't going to ever change.

 

[Xeph]

That's a shame they set the bar so low. It should be a high level title. Novice titles should not even be an option.

And I saw the pictures of your dogs herding on the facebook page. They looked good!!

I do not disagree with you. To be honest, Jax, even with our different preferences in dogs, we really agree more than we disagree.

I am glad you understood my explanation about my earlier response. I certainly didn't want you to think I was laughing at you when that was not the case.

The stud dog owner of my puppies and I have been doing a lot of work together to get my dogs out and in the public eye (and the eye of breeders). We've been doing a lot of proving people wrong and are trying to enact change of our own (even though we also do not agree on everything).

Progress is slow, but we're trying.

Her dog (sire of my two litters) recently went Select Excellent at the national...owner handled. He was BOS at Westminster this past February...owner handled. He was finished...owner handled. He has ended up in the Top 10 for the breed...owner handled.

After being told it couldn't be done.

He has also seen sheep, and LOVES sheep. She will be doing his HT at least, so mother, father, and several puppies from their litter will be working/have been worked on stock.

Thank you for the comment on my dogs. I take great pride in their willingness to be on stock. They truly enjoy it, and seeing that talent come to the fore is really something special.

 

[Xeph]

Just for clarification, the ratings for baby puppies does not count nor does the rating for adult untitled dogs. A dog must be at least a year to receive a G or SG that counts towards the breed survey. People show in the puppy classes and the adult untitled class for experience. So, people would still have that options of showing their puppies for experience, but could not earn points or championships until they were at least a year (which really is still too young).

And, yes, I realize it isn't going to ever change.

Oh, I understand they don't count...but that doesn't prevent people from listing them on the dog's name when they get them. Hence why it's not the same.

It's not that I even disagree with your assessment, really...it's just not feasible/possible with the system we have. People are not going to pay $60 for a weekend where they go home with literally nothing.