Well to be fair, a good portion of this thread was discussing how to change the AKC system and not even about the dog. It was about incorporating some kind of performance requirement and how the standards and systems differ. And it was a good discussion with Jackie's valuable input.

And Holland - No, you are not being overly sensitive. Yes, the owner and breeder are very hurt. I'm acquaintances with the breeder. He's a good guy. Very much cares about his dogs. And he's pretty upset over the absolute trashing this dog has gotten. Is the dog my cup? No. And Frank knows that. But he's Franks cup. As I stated at the start of the thread, I know he has at least one going for a BH. That's a start in the right direction! And my understanding is he has several herding with their owners. We've also discussed his dogs in IPO but that's his story to tell so I won't repeat his thoughts. Not that they were bad, as he is NOT against IPO and has titled a WGSL. It's more a matter of the perception IPO people have of ASL. I wish he would do it and, like Jackie said in her blog post, prove people wrong. Or learn where the holes in his breedings might be. Either way, he would win.

 

It's more a matter of the perception IPO people have of ASL

Ding.

I have started talking to people about sending one of my dogs to them to do IPO. I don't have anything against the sport itself, but I'm certainly not going to spend an entire day listening to people belittle American dogs while I'm *right there*.

 

but I'm certainly not going to spend an entire day listening to people belittle American dogs while I'm *right there*.

I have not had that experience. I've been places where you just know the dog is not cut out for the sport, or you see a dog so shut down from the owner not allowing the dog to think. And I only saw people cheer for the dog when it finally barked or bit the rag. Overall, people are very supportive of the dog.

Egos? Oh yes. lol There are egos. But, in general, people are supportive of new handlers and a good dog is a good dog.
What they don't like to see is a dog not cut out for the sport and the handler insisting it is. It's cruel to the dog.

As you said...go prove them wrong

 

We really discuss our viewpoints about AKC judging, titling, etc. outside of discussions concerning individual dogs. This post was created to dis the American line and the AKC conformation judging, and used a specific example as a beginning point.

I don't think that should be allowed on this site. Individual dogs have owners, breeders, etc.

If we did this same thing to a pet dog, or a rescue dog, a police dog, an IPO dog, that wouldn't fly here.

 

So is the handler not experienced with GSDs?

 

Just my take: people breed what sells. If none of these dogs' pups sell, they won't breed them anymore. It is all about the "market". And people buy whatever wins in the show rings so it is very hard to stop this practice of breeding crippled looking dogs. I am not bashing the one dog that was used as an example. He can't help it and should be loved, which he is, from what I understand.

 

I have not had that experience

I'm glad you haven't, because it feels terrible

 

I've had it in AKC though. And yes, it does feel terrible.

 

I think the purpose of standards and breed surveys is to provide a basis for folks, both knowledgable and unknowledgable, to see and breed for the best in the breed. When we get to the point that accurate criticism cannot be endured, then the breed will and has suffered. If we just condone anything in assessing the breed because of likes or feelings, are we really beneficial to the breed??? This breed has a wide spectrum of colors, types, and temperaments that are acceptable, but the standards and breed surveys try to ensure that we are not venturing outside the realm of issues that would compromise our great breed. When folks will not accept valid critical judgement the breed suffers.

 

I strongly suspect, is because a lot of the breeders know their dogs would fail

I will tell you straight up this isn't true. They absolutely believe their dogs can and will do IPO...but they have absolutely zero interest. Some of them once did it, but no longer care to, others are, as mentioned earlier, ignorant about the sport, and still others just don't have the time and money to dedicate to more than one venue.

What's a typical entry fee for a single SV show? $60? You go, you get your rating, you go home. You got something.

Spend the same thing for an AKC show weekend, you can still go home with nada.

I know IPO is expensive. Believe me, I do. But so is AKC showing. It takes thousands of dollars to finish a champion with significantly less frequent returns.

I've been herding this year, and I drive 3 hours round trip to do so (I am lucky). $30/lesson/dog adds up right quick, especially if I go more than once a week.

I am very very lucky in that I have found myself a group of people that can work together and get dogs worked and shown, but it sure takes a lot of effort. Not effort many can put in. My health issues also make things difficult, though I do my best.

My friends and I are all young (28-30), but there aren't a lot of us. Most people are older, and thus even less willing to get out and "do." They've already done it...40+ years ago. They're tired. They just wanna go and show.

 

It's expensive to show period.

Then to compete in a working venue is going to be extra, natürlich.

My comment was directed more at it's more expensive in the U.S. in general for various reasons as to costs.

You know what, I've worked for a couple of AKC show kennels.

For the most part it's easier and less expensive to show conformation only.

That, btw, is an entirely different topic from AKC SL breeders who DO make the extra effort voluntarily (and more power to them I say).

On the whole, for all working breeds in the AKC, it is *not* incentivizing ASL breeders to put working titles on their dogs.

Therefore many of them will take the path of least resistance and cost.

This problem, in regards to the U.S. vs Germany, is a valid observation, the disdain of "go to Germany if you want all the rules" is very telling. It just is.

I will tell you straight up this isn't true. They absolutely believe their dogs can and will do IPO...but they have absolutely zero interest. Some of them once did it, but no longer care to, others are, as mentioned earlier, ignorant about the sport, and still others just don't have the time and money to dedicate to more than one venue.

What's a typical entry fee for a single SV show? $60? You go, you get your rating, you go home. You got something.

Spend the same thing for an AKC show weekend, you can still go home with nada.

I know IPO is expensive. Believe me, I do. But so is AKC showing. It takes thousands of dollars to finish a champion with significantly less frequent returns.

I've been herding this year, and I drive 3 hours round trip to do so (I am lucky). $30/lesson/dog adds up right quick, especially if I go more than once a week.

I am very very lucky in that I have found myself a group of people that can work together and get dogs worked and shown, but it sure takes a lot of effort. Not effort many can put in. My health issues also make things difficult, though I do my best.

My friends and I are all young (28-30), but there aren't a lot of us. Most people are older, and thus even less willing to get out and "do." They've already done it...40+ years ago. They're tired. They just wanna go and show.

 

I'm new to the forum, but not necessarily to German Shepherds. Funny how my two breeds of choice, the gsd and the husky, have so much in common. What that is, the strong separation amongst the working lines and the show lines, and how in both breeds a very distinguished difference in the looks of wl and sl. I do lean towards the working lines of both breeds. Why? Because the working lines, to me, have seemed to stay truer to what the original bred dog looks like. I can not find the original article but here is a link of what I am talking about. (Admin, I am sorry if I am not allowed to post links, remove if I am not allowed).
How a century of breeding 'improvement' has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed animals | Daily Mail Online

I am not saying I have one iota of knowledge on show lines, nor really all that much knowledge on work lines. But I have to say, I do not understand why in both breeds, and I am sure other breeds have the same issue, there is such a huge difference in looks. As if they are 2 separate breeds, that is called a German shepherd, or Siberian Husky.

When I went looking for a great breeder, I often times asked for a straight back not sloped, people didn't know what I was asking for, so then I did more research and started looking at the working lines, since to me they seem truer to what the original bred gsd looked like.

Please do not bash me. To me in either case of breed, you want a dog that conforms to a standard, and can show and work, since really both of these breeds were bred to work. There are a few in the husky world who are trying to get the husky back to it's normal structure, so it can do just as well in the ring as well as out on a course sledding. My gsd I selected, in my eyes, is one step in that direction, a nice blend of a working line with a show line. She will eventually be a protection dog for me, and will not compete in sports, nor be in the show ring, so, yea, she is a pet.

I just would love to see the husky and gsd have a beautiful blend of both lines, look more like the original dog they were, and stop on this nonsense of having 2 separate standards for the same breed. It's just my 2 cents. But I remember back in 1983 or 84, and a friend of our family brought in a pink papered female show line, and I was so surprised at how small she was, and more importantly the very pronounce slope of her back, and thinking, how is she comfortable walking. I was a young teenager then, but to me she just wasn't the gsd I had thought in my mind to look like.

I appreciate the 9 pages of conversation. It gave me a lot of info on the breed. The biggest thing I can say though is, on any other forum, this 9 pages would have ended up a flame fest, and it didn't. Glad to be on a forum, where people are mature enough to have respect for eachother, even when people may have different opinions.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...9314/How-century-breeding-improvement-turned-healthy-dogs-deformed-animals.html

But I have to say, I do not understand why in both breeds, and I am sure other breeds have the same issue, there is such a huge difference in looks. As if they are 2 separate breeds, that is called a German shepherd, or Siberian Husky.

.

Not just these breeds. ALL working breeds. ALL. Not just in looks but drives as well. Go look at a show lab vs. a field lab. Not even the same animal.

Because one side is bred only for looks and the other for work. So each side ignores the other half.

At least the German Shepherds still have the SV, and that hte USCA adheres to the SV in that the Americans will work to get the breed survey. Still very different looking dogs from the working to the West German show lines. But still within the standard.

 

@Jax....Yes I have read about the differences with the wl vs sl Labs, Show lines are much heavier, is probably the most obvious distinction. I guess, what I was trying to ask, since many of you on this thread, specifically, are much more knowledgeable than myself, is why is there such a drastic difference in structure to the wl and sl gsd's? Other breeds, husky and lab for instance is about size, wl huskies have more of a leg vs sl which appear shorter leg. With gsd's there is a significant difference in the way they look. Not just in size but in the appearance of their backs and hind end, sl look very different than wl. I have shown pics of sl gsd's to people who are not familiar with gsd's and ask is that really a gsd? Because to the untrained people, or the common everyday people, who are only seeing byb gsd's, a show line doesn't really resemble what most think of when you say I have a gsd. Hmmm, does that make sense? haha, I know I may sound ignorant, so excuse me on that. But for me, any breed, really needs to be a blend of the beauty of a show mixed with the ability to work. Whether or not one chooses to just show or just work, really isn't the conversation that was brought up in this thread. I personally think it is much more in shouldn't all avenues of breed standard be the same? Again, I am not all that skilled in terminology of different sl and wl titles, but imo, all avenues of descriptions of conformation of any breed should be the same no matter what you do with your dog. Then maybe the disappointment that some people have wouldn't be there. I love gsd's, I think they are all beautiful, and I think it is awesome that some of you show yours and some of you work them, and still some do sports. They are a versatile breed. Thank you to all of you that posted here, it did shed some light for me, on titles, and the differences of the lines.

 

@Jax....Yes I have read about the differences with the wl vs sl Labs, Show lines are much heavier, is probably the most obvious distinction. I guess, what I was trying to ask, since many of you on this thread, specifically, are much more knowledgeable than myself, is why is there such a drastic difference in structure to the wl and sl gsd's?

IMO, because of what I stated above. 1/2 is breeding for conformation and 1/2 is breeding for work.

So the showline judges pick what they like and people breed to it. WGSL are red and black, they all look the same within a spectrum.

AKC judges picked what they like and people breed to it. ASL all look the same within a spectrum.

Working line people breed for traits. They could care less about color, if in standard, so you have blacks, bi's, sables, b/t. They don't care as much about a perfect body, as long as in standard. They want defense drive, prey drive, hunt drive. they want a working dog. For whatever reason, they did not find that within the show lines so what developed was a body style more typical of original German Shepherds.

That's just my opinion, as new as I am to the sport and dogs.

 

Though....I do agree, it's probably not going to change.

I don't like to bash lines in general either.

FWIW this is what I do if someone asks for a recommendation for a breeder for any line of GSD.

I tell them go to a breeder that shows and titles their dog and has dogs out there doing what you want your dog to do.

Whether it's agility, or SAR, or Service, protection, herding, IPO, tracking....even for a companion at least have the dogs doing well in OB trials.

That way at least people are supporting breeders who DO something with their dogs and aren't BYBs.

Also, FWIW, the last AKC show I was at, I hung around the GSDs (of course ) and one of the owner/handlers had a SAR certified dog.

 

Gwen, great advice. Funny, and I did not know this until I joined. My breeder is a member of this forum. As far as I know all his dogs work. My Sofie's lines, on both sides have all been titled. I dug deep to find the dog that would fit my minds eye on what the perfect gsd looked like, plus have a good temperament, great hips, and working ability. I know she has faults that, if I could have, would not make her a great candidate for showing. Overall though the show dogs are seen by more people than the working dogs, because of televised shows. If I didn't live in the middle of no where, I would probably have a bigger desire to do sport work with her, when she is older. Instead, I think I will build my own agility course so both of my girls can have added fun.

 

A couple of years ago I would have bet any amount of money that you couldn't give me an ASL GSD. I bad mouthed them. I had a WGSL breeder picked out for my next dog. Then I followed the progress of an ASL breeder as she showed AND worked her dogs. I watched her first litter grow into sound, sane, all around show and working dogs. The kind of dog a SGSD is supposed to be IMO. The kind of GSD that I had always wanted. Now I have a very loved, wonderful to work with ASL puppy who so far is everything that I want in a GSD. The bottom line is buy and own what works for you.

 

There are extremists in every line which only harms that particular line and these extreme breeders should not be the representatives of the breed. There are many breeders out that are striving to make improvements and should not be kept in the shadows. I have not seen an asl walk on their hocks in person ever. Not to sat they are out there but just have not seen it. Much more lime light are shown on asl which make them more prone to judgement as their flaws are widely show cased. Every line has there flaws not one is perfect as this forum would not be so popular. It also doesnt help that there is so much rift between lines I bet the founder of the gsd Max would be disappointed and that it is disheartening. I do love my "asl"and he does not walk on his hocks and is not a couch potatoe.