Many breeders describe their dogs as “straight-backed”, demonstrating their lack of knowledge of the breed's anatomy. Are these breeders ever reputable?
Simahl
yes, it's a backyard term demonstrating their lack of knowledge and their ability to use marketing terms to attract people that lack knowledge, and no, they are not reputable.
The first German Shepherds had straight backs. That is fact. Proof can be found within 5 - 10 seconds in your first google search.
GSD went through breeding phases, as all dogs. For several reasons they started to be bread without straight backs (I won’t get into this, too many details pros and cons). At some point, it started recently getting a lot of negative feedback, some GSD were bred into the extremes and fit dogs couldn’t walk anymore with 7-8 years of age, which even many Kennel Clubs (incl. American) started to officially give GSDs official lower life expectancies (7-10 years even today! Official).
The problem with very low-back GSD that their bred physiology would inhibit them from moving their hind leg forward.
We all have (or had) GSDs with a somewhat curved back, that is also fact.
I apologize if I understood some of the comments wrong but a German Shepherd, initially, had a straight back. Some breeders simply decided to reverse a bit, so I assume they use straight-backs as marketing purposes, and frankly to me, it does not bother me, except, if they start bragging how much better that is, because all GSDs are unique, so that’s my opinion.
But let’s be realistic. GSDs were bred with a sloped back with time, that’s not evolution, it was targeted and indeed in many cases way over the limits, so only they can win at dog shows and then be put to sleep at younger ages because they couldn’t walk anymore properly.
GSD went through breeding phases, as all dogs. For several reasons they started to be bread without straight backs (I won’t get into this, too many details pros and cons). At some point, it started recently getting a lot of negative feedback, some GSD were bred into the extremes and fit dogs couldn’t walk anymore with 7-8 years of age, which even many Kennel Clubs (incl. American) started to officially give GSDs official lower life expectancies (7-10 years even today! Official).
The problem with very low-back GSD that their bred physiology would inhibit them from moving their hind leg forward.
We all have (or had) GSDs with a somewhat curved back, that is also fact.
I apologize if I understood some of the comments wrong but a German Shepherd, initially, had a straight back. Some breeders simply decided to reverse a bit, so I assume they use straight-backs as marketing purposes, and frankly to me, it does not bother me, except, if they start bragging how much better that is, because all GSDs are unique, so that’s my opinion.
But let’s be realistic. GSDs were bred with a sloped back with time, that’s not evolution, it was targeted and indeed in many cases way over the limits, so only they can win at dog shows and then be put to sleep at younger ages because they couldn’t walk anymore properly.
What is "straight-back" even referring to? I assumed it was the more square and rigid working lines vs. the German Shepherd "Frogs."
Would the working lines not be considered straight-back? Or is this referring to something entirely different?
Would the working lines not be considered straight-back? Or is this referring to something entirely different?
oh geez....having a "slope" is in the standard. The founder of the breed put that in there. All dogs are supposed to have an angle. It shows when the dogs are stacked. "straight back" is a marketing term designed to appeal to people that don't understand the standard or what they are seeing. We've proven time and time again that you can stack a dog, over angulate him by where his feet are placed and make him look like a monstrosity, stack him correctly and show the proper angle and then when he's just standing he looks "straight backed".
Look at these sites to understand
Look at these sites to understand
Welcome to my Website - The German Shepherd Dog
THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG - information and resource site. In depth education and articles on the German Shepherd Dog.
www.louisdonald.com
Anatomy ... so important!
Louis Donald : A 'rule of thumb guide' to hindquarter angulation in the German Shepherd Dog. A notation - we say ''over angulation''. In that context, the increased angulation is the external angle,...
www.kingofziongermanshepherds.com
I think what some are trying to explain here is the very angulated exaggerated slope that some use to point use how unhealthy a curved back dog looks/can be are actually showing a stacked dog that overly accentuates the curved back that may or may not be present (certanly not to that degree) when in a normal pose. Clear as mud?
This has been a good thread. I've learned a lot - even though I must admit I'm still not out of the woods. Well, not even close, but at least I'm in phase 1 now - I realize I'm lost in the woods lol.
![Image]()
I've never even heard of stacking before, although I presumed some of the exacerbated low hindquarters were just poses. So although the fact they were in a pose was obvious, how much it lowered the hindquarters was not.
Stacking has an interesting effect on the dog's overall appearance, and it can be fairly misleading to people who haven't studied it (i.e., myself). It's also misleading when many of the "official" photos of GSDs are stacked.
I found the image to the right interesting - stacked Aussie. Kinda gives me a view of stacking outside the confines of the GSD breed itself.
One thing I had never seen (or even looked for) was a stacked sable GSD. I just assumed their structure was different because they are generally working lines. And MAYBE their structure is somewhat different? But at least not to the point that I initially thought. And I'm not implying the sable color itself changes their structure or even that sable GSDs are a sub-breed in themselves, but only that you generally see sable in the working lines.
SO - this thread prompted me to LOOK for stacked sables and low and behold ...
![Image]()
Not noticeably different from the show lines, at least to a person new to analyzing the anatomy.
My first thought is that I'll never teach Artemis to stack. I do plan to get her every single SV sanctioned title I can possibly afford (relative to time, money, and stress thresholds), but I currently have no concern with even competing in Schutzhund much less conformation. I just want the titles and the knowledge/experience that comes with achieving them. HOWEVER, I do believe the KKL does actually require a rating of at least "G" in a conformation show, correct? So if I want the KKL, maybe I should be teaching her to stack?
Who knows - it's all a long way off.
At the very least, it has certainly prevented me from envisioning this when I'll inevitably hear of GSD stacking at my Schutzhund club:
![Image]()
I've never even heard of stacking before, although I presumed some of the exacerbated low hindquarters were just poses. So although the fact they were in a pose was obvious, how much it lowered the hindquarters was not.
Stacking has an interesting effect on the dog's overall appearance, and it can be fairly misleading to people who haven't studied it (i.e., myself). It's also misleading when many of the "official" photos of GSDs are stacked.
I found the image to the right interesting - stacked Aussie. Kinda gives me a view of stacking outside the confines of the GSD breed itself.
One thing I had never seen (or even looked for) was a stacked sable GSD. I just assumed their structure was different because they are generally working lines. And MAYBE their structure is somewhat different? But at least not to the point that I initially thought. And I'm not implying the sable color itself changes their structure or even that sable GSDs are a sub-breed in themselves, but only that you generally see sable in the working lines.
SO - this thread prompted me to LOOK for stacked sables and low and behold ...
Not noticeably different from the show lines, at least to a person new to analyzing the anatomy.
My first thought is that I'll never teach Artemis to stack. I do plan to get her every single SV sanctioned title I can possibly afford (relative to time, money, and stress thresholds), but I currently have no concern with even competing in Schutzhund much less conformation. I just want the titles and the knowledge/experience that comes with achieving them. HOWEVER, I do believe the KKL does actually require a rating of at least "G" in a conformation show, correct? So if I want the KKL, maybe I should be teaching her to stack?
Who knows - it's all a long way off.
At the very least, it has certainly prevented me from envisioning this when I'll inevitably hear of GSD stacking at my Schutzhund club:
@Mike N Artie
There is a better illustration of stacking the same dog differently in this thread
The reason you should go to a conformation show isn't to compete. In an SV show, the judge will give you an individual critique from top to bottom based on the breed standard. You aren't going to win a show with a working line.
www.germanshepherddog.com
So at least do a show rating. It's not hard to teach the dog to gait and you hire a handler. At Seger's breed survey, he didn't show well just due to mistakes we made handling him. He never should have been allowed to see me because then he lost his mind. But the judge told me if he was trained better he would V. At Faren's show rating, the judge caught a major flaw that will affect her performance and health as she ages. Not only is she east-west but she has one pastern that rotates as she gaits. With age and repeated impact from jumping, this could cause injury and she could be lame at an early age. That changed how I trained her in jumping. With my boy, I did it because I wanted to complete the whole picture. With Faren, it was part of a contract - but now I will always do at least a show to get the judge's critique.
So, to answer your next question - you do a conformation show and get a show rating. You must have at least a G, not really hard to get a G, in order to get the Breed Survey (KKL). You can do an SV breed survey or a USCA breed survey. USCA kept the stick hit and added a jump in this past year. The breed survey is an attack out of the blind and a bit of heeling. There are some videos out there if you search for them. You can put them in the conformation ring again if you want to get a better rating. Most people will do the AD (which you must have for the BS), the show and the BS all in one weekend. I like to do the show before they are 24 months and then I just repeat it.
Here are good pics of my dogs stacked
www.pedigreedatabase.com
www.pedigreedatabase.com
Now - working line people will tell you that you dont' need to train your dogs for the ring. But frankly, putting an untrained dog in the ring is disrespectful to the judge.
There is a better illustration of stacking the same dog differently in this thread
The reason you should go to a conformation show isn't to compete. In an SV show, the judge will give you an individual critique from top to bottom based on the breed standard. You aren't going to win a show with a working line.
Breed Standards | United Schutzhund Clubs of America
The United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the “Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)” in Germany. USCA is a member of the “World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs” and...
www.germanshepherddog.com
So at least do a show rating. It's not hard to teach the dog to gait and you hire a handler. At Seger's breed survey, he didn't show well just due to mistakes we made handling him. He never should have been allowed to see me because then he lost his mind. But the judge told me if he was trained better he would V. At Faren's show rating, the judge caught a major flaw that will affect her performance and health as she ages. Not only is she east-west but she has one pastern that rotates as she gaits. With age and repeated impact from jumping, this could cause injury and she could be lame at an early age. That changed how I trained her in jumping. With my boy, I did it because I wanted to complete the whole picture. With Faren, it was part of a contract - but now I will always do at least a show to get the judge's critique.
So, to answer your next question - you do a conformation show and get a show rating. You must have at least a G, not really hard to get a G, in order to get the Breed Survey (KKL). You can do an SV breed survey or a USCA breed survey. USCA kept the stick hit and added a jump in this past year. The breed survey is an attack out of the blind and a bit of heeling. There are some videos out there if you search for them. You can put them in the conformation ring again if you want to get a better rating. Most people will do the AD (which you must have for the BS), the show and the BS all in one weekend. I like to do the show before they are 24 months and then I just repeat it.
Here are good pics of my dogs stacked
Seger vom Sitz von der Hose
Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Seger vom Sitz von der Hose
www.pedigreedatabase.com
Faren vom Warkonhaus
Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Faren vom Warkonhaus
www.pedigreedatabase.com
Now - working line people will tell you that you dont' need to train your dogs for the ring. But frankly, putting an untrained dog in the ring is disrespectful to the judge.
Sorry, those were the best photos I could come up with on such short notice, lol. Here’s another with her just standing around in the Herding Group
![Image]()
This is why I usually avoid forums. People do not read the whole text because as soon as they read something they do not agree with, than the respect is immediately gone. And also, Odin had a curved back, just fyi, but not too curved, and what professionals and experts told me here (about similar to what I wrote) became fact.
In central Europe (where I live) what I wrote is how the breed and "straight-back" is looked at. The term comes up a lot, and by the looks of it in this forum, it comes up more than in North America. I am sorry if this causes bad moods, but that's how it is over here. Debates in straight vs curved and its benefits and origins is discussed heavily here, I mean, HEAVILY, on random walks with meeting new people, like half the time this is addressed, here, in central Europe. Call it cultural difference? But it's a main topic, I am again sorry if this disturbs others. I even met two persons in the past six months that bragged to me "I finally found a breeder that did not bred their GSDs with a very low curved back".
The issue is, what people apparently think is that I am a full supporter of this, and that I am a flat-out liar? I don't know, and frankly, it is best I leave the general discussion section in hopes I won't be bullied there for posting opinions and help to other owners. Going to be honest also, people with not so many posts in this forum (as in most other forums), are generally also ignored more or well, not really accepted, so maybe I should have known better but to basically point out what here in central Europe is known as fact.
Here is your first German Shepherd Dog.
![Image]()
And here is it's description on wikipedia:
"Horand von Grafrath (January 1, 1895 – after 1899) (formerly Hektor Linksrhein) was the first German Shepherd Dog and the genetic basis for modern German Shepherds. "
So, again, take it with a grain of salt, accept it, either way, I apologize for having offended people here and I therefore won't be posting again in this forum unless in the health section.
I wish with all my heart the best health and best times for your dogs together with you.
In central Europe (where I live) what I wrote is how the breed and "straight-back" is looked at. The term comes up a lot, and by the looks of it in this forum, it comes up more than in North America. I am sorry if this causes bad moods, but that's how it is over here. Debates in straight vs curved and its benefits and origins is discussed heavily here, I mean, HEAVILY, on random walks with meeting new people, like half the time this is addressed, here, in central Europe. Call it cultural difference? But it's a main topic, I am again sorry if this disturbs others. I even met two persons in the past six months that bragged to me "I finally found a breeder that did not bred their GSDs with a very low curved back".
The issue is, what people apparently think is that I am a full supporter of this, and that I am a flat-out liar? I don't know, and frankly, it is best I leave the general discussion section in hopes I won't be bullied there for posting opinions and help to other owners. Going to be honest also, people with not so many posts in this forum (as in most other forums), are generally also ignored more or well, not really accepted, so maybe I should have known better but to basically point out what here in central Europe is known as fact.
Here is your first German Shepherd Dog.
And here is it's description on wikipedia:
"Horand von Grafrath (January 1, 1895 – after 1899) (formerly Hektor Linksrhein) was the first German Shepherd Dog and the genetic basis for modern German Shepherds. "
So, again, take it with a grain of salt, accept it, either way, I apologize for having offended people here and I therefore won't be posting again in this forum unless in the health section.
I wish with all my heart the best health and best times for your dogs together with you.
That is what is referred to as a foundation sire. Also note that the dog is standing like a rocking horse.
If this rant is at me....I haven't even read your posts. When I asked "who is Vara?" I was literally asking who you were because I did not see your posts, and after reading this one, no real desire to go back and find them. Regardless of my high post count which people seem to fixate on, and initially came from posting rescues when that part of the forum was active, I don't live on this forum and have the time to read every word. My initial response was directed at Mike at his 'frog' comment. The whole conversation I had was with Mike - and it was obviously so. So maybe take a breath and not be so determined to be offended.
And second, there are many experts in North America upholding the breed standard. We don't live in a vacuum. Many from Europe live here. None of them wrote the standard, the founder of the breed chose a foundation sire and chose qualities that he wanted and then bred to attain those qualities, intentionally changing from the conformation of the original dog. Just because a foundation dog 130 years ago had a "straight back" does not mean that is the conformation type to uphold. Nobody is denying that dogs have been bred to be over angulated and that has affected their working ability, that is caused by a judging/competition issue. People will breed to the "type" that is winning. That goes for drive as well as conformation. Nobody is denying the roach back of the WGSL's. Many of the dogs we buy for competition come from Central Europe, they all have proper angulation. All I said was there was supposed to be an angle and I provided documentation for Mike to look at. I would suggest instead of being offended at whatever post didn't agree with you (Pot...Kettle) - be productive and also provide valid documentation for Mike to understand the breed standard.
Granted, I have a ton of people on ignore, for exactly dramatic posts like yours, so I could be missing posts but I don't see anyone bullying you. You do you. I'll just add this drama to my ignore list.
Interesting subject that I'm not really qualified to agree or dispute. However, I will comment on my observations:
When my Gracie was in her early months, we participated in Camp Bow-Wow Puppy socialization classes. They called it puppy kindergarten. I personally think it was a mistake since though a trainer was present, it was essentially a dog free-for-all with the handlers sitting off to the side. Anyway...I digress.
While there, we met a woman who breeds what she called show GSD's. her GSD looked somewhat peculiar to me with a VERY sloped back. What I was able to observe was the difference between my Gracie and her dog was the angle of the pasterns. In the attached picture, my Gracie (in the foreground) has what I would define as normal pasterns, her Shepherd (closest to the fence) had very low pasterns. Almost seemed like something was wrong.
I will say while at play, her GSD was very uncoordinated and stumbled quite a bit while running and turning. I think the differences in pasterns helps create that excessive slope. I don't like it. Seems wrong. In the picture, both dogs were 5 mo. old at the time.
![Image]()
When my Gracie was in her early months, we participated in Camp Bow-Wow Puppy socialization classes. They called it puppy kindergarten. I personally think it was a mistake since though a trainer was present, it was essentially a dog free-for-all with the handlers sitting off to the side. Anyway...I digress.
While there, we met a woman who breeds what she called show GSD's. her GSD looked somewhat peculiar to me with a VERY sloped back. What I was able to observe was the difference between my Gracie and her dog was the angle of the pasterns. In the attached picture, my Gracie (in the foreground) has what I would define as normal pasterns, her Shepherd (closest to the fence) had very low pasterns. Almost seemed like something was wrong.
I will say while at play, her GSD was very uncoordinated and stumbled quite a bit while running and turning. I think the differences in pasterns helps create that excessive slope. I don't like it. Seems wrong. In the picture, both dogs were 5 mo. old at the time.
Pastern? That's it. I'm taking a GSD anatomy diagram to Office Depot to get it poster-printed. Then I'm gonna hang it on my wall until it's burned into my mind lol.
And no need to explain where a pastern is - I just looked it up
And no need to explain where a pastern is - I just looked it up
@Vara the members are not being hostile towards you at all,only having a discussion.Reading the original breed standard there is no suggestion of a flat level back,like for example in some terrier breeds.@alwaysGSD showed a good example of extreme confirmation that is definitely incorrect.Many times it's the bones in the back legs that are too long so the dogs are squatting and not the spine itself. That information can be googled too, and found here in other in depth discussions.
@Mike N Artie - are you an engineer? I feel like your level of OCD maybe be engineerlike. Or maybe I'm admiring your poster and projecting my engineer OCD.
Or maybe I'm admiring your poster and projecting my engineer OCD.-
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