Debbie, that was awful

If it would be so normal than we would hear more often about worm infestations like that. My first pup came with very bad giardia, the second pup was healthy and happy and had no bugs at all.

OP is probably changing her mind right now about getting a puppy

Just kidding.

 

Oksana,
yep, it was awful.......especially since worm infestaions are also a threat to kids and people...........i have never had any other pups with this round worm issue..........i have talked to breeders who make it a point to completely take care of those worm issues before the pups go to homes......yes, puppies do eat stuff and might get worms after coming to homes, but monthly wormings take care of it.....and its not mass quanities coming out in the stool. there is Nothing any more discusting, and really no new puppy owner should have to witness that......

 

LOL, Oksana, I was reading this thread and going, oh lord. I am quite glad I am hearing this now, and not seeing it in shock later...

Actually my first pup had worms (from the BYB) and I do have a slight memory of how icky that was to witness. No ickier than my kid throwing up in my bed every 10 minutes when she had the flu, I guess.

 

http://www.gsdcoregon.com/Rescue.htm

The German Shepherd Dog Club of Oregon does courtesy listings for dogs that need to be placed.

They have had some wooderful dogs listed.

I am not sure how I would feel if I were a breeder about someone needing to make payments. I think the initial large expense is hard for some people but the rest of the expenses are usually spread out and more manageable. I think having pet insurance for medical emergencies is a good thing too.

I put down $500 each on both Havoc and Kayos well before the dogs were even bred. Than I made the rest of the payments in 2 more installments before I picked them up. Havoc was paid for 6 months before he was born, Kayos was paid for before she was shipped.

 

Originally Posted By: debbiebi really didn't get much of an answer except that the pups were wormed................whatever was used for worming obviously didn't work. i know that mothers will sometimes have worms, but shouldn't a breeder make sure the mother is worm free before she gets pregnant? i would think that would be the healthiest thing for the offspring....

Mothers who are "worm free" can still pass them onto pups. This is because most dogs who have ever had worms are not truly "worm free". There may be no worms active in the digestive tract, and thus nothing will show up on a fecal and the dog does not have worms. However, worm larvae will encyst in muscle tissue and go dormant. Wormers will not stop this or erradicate the encysted larvae. Then when the female is pregnant, they will migrate to the pups in utero, so the pups are born with worms. Thus, most all pups for the most part are born with worms. It doesn't mean the mother "has worms".

This is why breeders worm pups, because you can be guaranteed the pups probably have them starting at birth. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the breeder.

Worms can also be very difficult to erradicate when the pups are living together in a litter. Especially if it is a large litter. They get the wormer, poop out the dead worms but also viable worm eggs, then all that has to happen is one pup licks a poop pile, or steps in it and licks off his paw, he's infested again and soon are all of his littermates. Unless a breeder can supervise the pups 24/7, following them around picking up all puppy poop as soon as it leaves the puppy's butts for a day or two after wormer is given, the pups can cet reinfested.

A pup carrying a large worm load when it goes home would be an issue, as it would indicate the breeder either didn't worm or the wormer didn't work for some reason. But for a pup to still have some worms floating around needing one more wormer when it leaves the litter and chance of reinfestation is drastically reduced, is not uncommon.

 

Wow this thread has taken a disgusting turn

I am so lucky I am so lucky I am so lucky - haven't seen worms in about 20 years and that was with a cat so infested he was pooping live ones out. Eww, now I'm remembering that...

 

Sorry, but I think when people are implying that a pup having worms is a sign of a horrible breeder, and indicating that nerve/temperament issues could be blamed on supposed neurological damage caused by worms, its important that they get some facts on worms in pups.

 

For me, worms are part of owning animals. Nikon came home from the breeder with a stash of canned food and de-worming powder (panacur). He got a double-dose for 5 days. This was to get rid of any worms and the doubled dose was the giardia dose. There was no reason to think he had worms or giardia but like Chris is describing, it's highly possible and not uncommon. I also use a heartworm "preventative" (have to put that in quotes b/c it kills the worm before it's a worm, doesn't really "prevent" it) monthly that kills rounds, hooks, and whips so basically all my dogs are still de-wormed every month. In fact I believe it has more value to me as a de-wormer than heartworm preventative. I had a brief run in with a foster dog that had severe whip worms and pooped all over my house and yard.

 

Vets usually give a dewormer (drontal?) to new puppies I think at the second visit. As I see it, Debbie doesn't claim that worms in puppies are something unusual, she is just understandably upset that her puppy came with a load of worms that took a year to get rid of and bring puppy's digestive system into order.

It seems that her breeder didn't care for proper deworming and didn't provide any communication at least with information what to do and what to expect after the money changed hands. If a pup comes from a reputable kennel and I paid $1500-2000 I bet I would expect some support from the breeder, it's not the worms that would bug me, not the cost and not the warranties.

I think it's understandable to try to understand what went wrong and where especially if the puppy is a loved member of a family. I still believe in Debbie's case the temperament had to do with genetics and not with worms, though.

 

Thanks Oksana, i appreciate that someone understands where i am coming from......

from the beginning this has just been a total mystery, i have tried hard to look at all angles, to try and explain this temperment issue. its very mind boggling to say the least.....
When anyone has a dod that show inconsistancys with temperment things that just don't make sense one would tend to look at everything possible, especially since the dog did come from a decent line......i don't think anyone realizes how Darn frustrating it is,,,,,,,,,,,,

debbie

 

also this puppy was almost 12 weeks old when i got him....plenty of time for the breeder to worm him..............and do it right.....

so, we might be off topic here and appologies to the OP, but frankly something went wrong in worming correctly....

 

**Post removed by Admin.**

 

It is amazing the diverse backgrounds some of the "best" dogs come from, and it is indeed a crapshoot unless you do your homework, learn about what makes a reputable breeder or work closely with a rescue to find the right dog.

That said...I completely lucked out by getting my two wonderful white sheps (not everybody's cup of tea) right off the streets where they had been abandoned, and they were healthy and stable and became my long-lived and beloved companions.

Lucy was free--a long story, but she came from a breeder I think the world of and became my souldog. I went to visit the breeder after my 1200 dollar pup died from viruses just weeks after I bought him, despite thousands in medical intervention.

The breeder wanted to keep Lucy available as a potential part of her breeding program and asked if I'd be interested in just taking her home to give her a loving home life, no strings attached if we didn't bond. I think she knew I was grieving, not ready to invest emotionally or financially in a pup, and found a win-win situation. She ended up not being bred and becoming the best "freebie" ever. I think her breeder knew we'd bond and she did me an enormous kindness in sending Lucy home with me. It's why I went back to buy Zuzu from her for substantial money, but I KNEW I was dealing with somebody who I trusted completely . And Zuzu is all I could ask for.

I have also seen some competively priced pups from the occasional "oops " litter from breeders said to be reputable, or if a dog has a cosmetic but not physical "flaw" and is still a wonderful puppy.

I see that some breeders to foster out breeding stock, but I'm not familiar with the process or it's ethics. You have to make the dog available for breeding, and for a female, that may mean sending her away to be bred and taking on the health risks involved in pregnancy. I wonder what others' experience is with this practice.

I paid good money for Aik too, and totally lucked out, it was 10 years ago, I found him on a chat group like this from a woman who had his sibling. He came trained, calm and is one of the kindest, easiest dogs you could ask for. It was dumb luck that he was also from a great breeder, who still calls and wants updates on Aik and wishes us Merry Christmas.

Don't discount gut feelings in ALL of your options. If you get the heebie jeebies from a breeder, run. My sick, dead puppy came from someplace that did not feel right, and she's got an impressive web site, but the place itself didn't feel okay, but I ignored it.

Same with a rescue dog, if you can meet the dog first, ask for the straight up about his health, temperament, speak to the foster parent. The rescue org I help out with thoroughy vets their dogs, gets them healthy and works on any issues they bring in to care, then send them off microchipped and with a lifetime of support if needed.

With owner surrenders, you can get a lovely family dog whose family fell upon hard times. But you can also get a diamond in the rough who has been relegated to being an outside dog with no training or manners.

Research, referrals from people who have great dogs and a great experience with a breeder and your own common sense and gut feelings.

Consider options other than a pup--they are absolutely adorable but extremely time and energy-consuming to raise right. They are smart, energetic, immature and get big fast. I have loved all of my puppies, but I'm all done and will treasure getting a sweet rescue next time.

Wow, I am babbling, sorry!

You sound very committed to finding the right dog for your home, I commend you for that! It will be one lucky guy or gal to find a home with you!

 

And puppy hood ends fast...... I am really thinking hard about another rescue when my Max is gone and I am ready for another dog.

Max is a rescue and was a tough dog at first but he was one of those diamonds in the rough. He is great dog and ever so grateful.

 

Jennifer,

Thank you for that informative post. Getting the "right" dog for my family is so important to me, and I am spending a lot of time learning and thinking about the choices I have. I am definitely going to consider rescue. When the time is right, I will look and see if there is a rescue dog that I feel would be a good fit. But on the other hand, I'd like the experience, just once, of raising a GSD from puphood. (I also just turned 40, have 5 kids and am sort of going through baby withdrawals as my youngest will start kindergarten next fall. No more babies for me... but maybe a puppy would give me another great outlet for my mothering instincts! At least, I like to think that....)

 

Rescues have puppies.
I got Ava at 8 weeks old through rescue

 

I have fostered 3 very young gsd puppies and a couple of older ones as well. I helped place several litters of puppies who were in foster care with the rescue I volunteered with. All grew up to be wonderful family dogs.

 

The problem is that rescues rarely get in young puppies and when they do, they are usually adopted quickly (and generally have to be altered before going home). GSD looking puppies sometimes come into shelters from an unknown background but they may or may not grow up to be purebred GSDs. If someone wants a purebred puppy, rescue isn't always an option.

I would suggest keeping an eye on CL and your local classifieds for people looking to rehome puppies that aren't working out for whatever reason. Those puppies (and rescue dogs) are almost always going to be from "BYB"s, so all that people warn against when buying a puppy from a "BYB" applies to them as well such as an unknown health and temperament background.

Occasionally you can find pet breeders who do health testing and aim to produce sound, healthy pets. These breeders generally charge much less for their puppies than show or working breeders and you get many of the same perks such as a known health/temperament background and breeder support, although the parents aren't proven by titles (which is really a big part of what you're paying for from working/show breeders). Many people oppose pet breeding but if what you want is a sound pet from a known background a puppy from such a breeder might fit your needs well.

I'd really like to see more pet breeders like this out there because the demand for popular breed pet puppies far outnumbers what show and working breeders produce. Show/work bred puppies tend to be pricier than what many pet owners are willing to pay for a puppy. Most pet homes, even really good ones don't care what sort of accomplishments the parents or grandparents of a puppy might have - they just want a healthy, sound family dog.

My first purebred dog was a collie from a pet breeder that health tested and I suspect if I ever got another collie, I would get one from the same type of breeder. He had a moderate head, moderate coat and a wonderful, fairly drivey temperament. The modern show collies just aren't what I personally want and the breed has no working lines.

 

I have seen alot of purebred gsd puppies, rescues on petfinder, almost nabbed one a month ago, but I bit my fingers off before hitting the keyboard LOL..

Granted I get kinda frustrated going thru petfinder postings, that say 'purebred' when just by looking at them you know they aren't, but if you dig for them, there seems to have been quite a few in ct in the past months.

 

A local breeder has one now, an 11 week old that was dumped at the pound right after Christmas. Though it does happen, one certainly can't count on being about to find a young purebred GSD puppy in rescue. Older puppies aren't all that uncommon (6-12 months) but the number of under 3 month old purebred puppies in most breeds is pretty low. Rescues also will almost certainly be overvaccinated and early alters, which some people don't find a problem and some do. Either way number of young puppies in rescue certainly can not cover the good homes who want purebred GSD puppies but can't/won't pay $1000++ for one.

I so agree about Petfinder though - it is not the most user-friendly site. I wish it had an option to find purebred only of the breed you choose. And many shelters really do a bad job of breed IDing which further complicates finding a specific breed. I found my hubby's corgi one Petfinder and some of the dogs which were listed as corgi or corgi mixes were just silly. One looked like a white Great Dane and several were obviously pit bulls. It can be like looking for a needle in a haystack between the way the listings come up and the poor IDing. I think it'd be handy to be able to search for common, purposely bred mixes such as Labradoodles or cockapoos. Regardless of how people feel about the breeding of these dogs, some pet owners like these specific mixes and they are sought after and it'd be nice to be able to direct people to Petfinder who are interested in them.

 

Why do you think you have to spend that much for a GS puppy? Paying more doesnt always mean youre going to get the best. Even the most purebred animals can still come down with health issues in the future. Health isnt guaranteed for life. Some of the most amazing German Shepherd dogs Ive seen have came from farms, underwood piles etc.

In my opinion, dont limit yourself to thinking you have to spend a fortune to get a great dog. And as far as rescues, and adoptions, youre right. Some of those dogs CAN come with issues. Most dogs in shelters are there for a reason. Not saying its always a bad reason because of the dog, maybe the owners husband/wife died, and the person can no longer be financially responsible for the dog.

Just poke around on the internet, check out classified ads in your local newspaper, ask around ( Vet, pet stores, other people that have GSD ) and youll find one that suits your financial budget. Because after all, it takes love, care, and MONEY to make sure these dogs have great homes.

 

Originally Posted By: cassadee7I'd like the experience, just once, of raising a GSD from puphood. (I also just turned 40, have 5 kids and am sort of going through baby withdrawals as my youngest will start kindergarten next fall. No more babies for me... but maybe a puppy would give me another great outlet for my mothering instincts! At least, I like to think that....)

LOL, I'm the same age with a kindergartner, preschool twins. Some days when Otto was a tiny pup I was thinking I am way too old for this ****! He's grown to be a good boy. A busy boy but a good boy.

Maybe if you posted your price range and where your located (sorry if I missed it), someone can point you in the right direction.

I think an opps litter could be had for in the 800/1000 range. Untitled but registered and otherwise healthy parents the same. Things to avoid would be parents without xrayed hips, breeders who send their puppies home before 8 weeks and/or don't socialize them with humans before that age. There's a few threads active right now about pups who went home early.

My kids are in here arguing with me about a pizza that's half pepperoni and half meat lovers so it's hard to have coherent thoughts.

What I'm trying to say is spend a little more on the front end. It'll save you on the back end in terms of vet visits and training.

Sure there's pups born under a wood pile but what are the changes the owner has checked that the parents hips are good or has paid much attention to temperament traits of both parents and thought about what this will bring in the puppies?

Dogs are somewhat like a used car - you're not going to get all the car for less than all the money. Sure you could probably find a lincoln for $3500, looks the same and has the same mileage as others that are going for $5000. Then it falls apart in less than a year.

 

I agree, that in the long run 1500 is not "expensive" for a a family member who will hopefully be with you for the next 13 or so years. When we were ready for our 1st gsd. I spent about a year reseaching the breed and breeders. I asked my grandpa and parents, lots of questions(my grandfather has had everone of his GSD's from pups to around 13 yrs!) He also says don't be afraid to spend money on a good dog. On the other hand, As I was willing to pay up to around 2000 for a dog Not To breed, Leave that to the pros!! Bo fell into our lap! His owner was going to Iraq. Bo does have an undecended Testicle that will cost more to have him Nutuered. But, after emailing getting as much info as I could, Physically looking and playing with bo then taking bo to the vet and getting his opinion, I decided to take the chance. We love him and couldn't ask for a more perfect dog for our family. Is he a champion, WELL to us he is. Is he an unhealthy NOPE, I hope he stays this way too. The x rays and blood work indecates he should be fine, with proper exercise, diet,& care. Lets face it You just never know, you justt have to do what YOU think is right then just love the dog! a $1500 dog can pick up bad habits and have the same naughty behavior as a rescue dog, the breeder hopefully does the very best they can on their end but they only have them a short time and depend on us to make sure we carry on the efforts they put into the dog. What about fostering? kinda like test driving? Do you have a Vet yet? you could start there and let them know what your looking for. I hope you find the perfect new member of your family whatever way you choose!! P.S. when we are in a bigger house with more land, I will purchase from a GOOD breeder, I want a female and play mate for Bo!

 

My concern is that the OP wants "inexpensive." But even the best bred dog is not guaranteed to STAY "inexpensive."

My last three dogs -- all acquired as pups -- came from good breeders, with good lines. Camper's breeder wasn't nearly as good as Meri's. But she was diligent, attentive and supportive. Camper had several health issues -- allergies, SIBO, and ultimately, partial torsion that required surgery. He cost us a fortune. And he died almost immediately after the surgery at an incredibly young age.

For what it's worth, he had excellent hips and elbows.

There's more to health than orthopedics. ...Sigh...

Meri's breeder is VERY highly regarded. If you read any book about beagles that's been recently written, it's likely that the breeder or co-owner is featured and possibly has written a section. Great folks. Meri has a luxating patella that needs surgery. The sire has lots of offspring and there isn't one (that anyone knows of) that has this issue. Meri's was the first litter for the bitch. Given Meri's knee, they have mentioned that they may not breed her again. Meri has no trochlear groove to speak of (She also has beautiful hips and elbows though.

) It's completely genetic. And quite serious. Obviously.

I'm supposed to let them know exactly what the surgeon finds when he's in there, and when we take xrays of the other knee (we're waiting for her to be anesthetized to do so). Then they'll figure out what should be done. At the very least, they don't plan to breed the dog and bitch together again.

Great breeders. Very supportive.

Finally, Celo has an issue with his bite. His breeder came extremely well recommended; her lines are excellent. This is another fluke thing that just happened. We've waited to see if he would outgrow it, but it's not happening. My long-time vet is now a board-certified dentist, and he's been trying to figure out how we can fix this without orthodontics. But the longer we wait, the worse the condition of his mouth is. He's going in Wednesday to have impressions made for his orthodontia.


I don't blame Celo's breeder -- who is also very supportive -- any more than I blame Meri's. We are buying living creatures. Some things can be somewhat controlled for (like HD/ED) but a breeder can't control for everything.

Total cost for my dogs? Camper probably cost me about $10K in total health care over less than 3 years.

Currently, Meri's one surgery (hoping her second knee won't need surgery!) will run about $2700, not including rehab costs. S0 maybe $3500-4000 WITH rehab? Celo's "braces"

will cost me about $2000. Given what happened with Camper, I opted to run both of them past the internist who did a complete pre-anesthesia work-up. That ran approx $500 each.

So...my point is that dogs CAN cost you a LOT of money even after you get them home.

What I DO have is two friendly, social, stable, amazing dogs that you can put into almost any situation and they'll be perfectly fine. They aren't aggressive. They aren't nervy. They're just great dogs. Temperament IS genetic as well. And excellent breeders worry as much about temperament as they do overall health. What's the point of having a perfectly healthy dog if he's a basket case that you can't do anything with?

Do I recommend getting a dog from a BYB? Of course not. I think you'll have fewer issues with a well bred dog. A dog from a BYB is, imo, more likely to have health issues, and more of them. We do see it on this board often enough. The dog is sick and the breeder is no where to be found, or just as bad, the breeder is blaming the owner for somehow causing what is almost certainly a genetic issue. And we don't usually see temperament issues in well bred dogs the way we do in BYB (and puppy mill) dogs.

My alternative vet, who treats Army K9s and adores GSDs, always says (with a sad sort of laugh), when she was in vet school, if you weren't sure what kind of dog got a certain disease, the safe guess was "German Shepherd."

In other words, these aren't dogs for people who want "inexpensive dogs."

My recommendation is to go with one of our numerous reputable rescues, get yourself a dog that is a known quantity (temperament, orthopedically, etc). We have them as puppies for a few months. But there's a lot that can go wrong during that time as well. And any time something goes wrong, it tends to be very expensive.

 

I'm not an experienced GSD owner as this is my first, but I'm sorry, I just have to disagree with those that say if you don't pay $1200+ for a puppy, you're likely to have a lot of health problems.
I paid $300 for my AKC Registered German Bloodline pup, Kaiya. I purchased her from a breeder that lives 15 min down the road from me, but just happened to find him by chance. I was able to visit his home, see the puppies in action, and both parents. He only had one litter and was able to show me papers on both parents on the spot with documentation of several VA German Bloodline Champions in both parents. He and his wife were in their mid 50s and had always owned German Shepherds and loved the breed. He even asked if I would bring the pup back in 6 months so he could see her and how she was doing and to keep in touch and send pics. When I took her to the vet, he raved about what a beautiful and healthy puppy she was.
Now I'm not saying this is always going to be the case when trying to find a good puppy, but just simply believing that the more money you pay, the better dog you get is just biased to me.