Sieger show 2007 West German Show Lines- Please tell me this is being bred out 
They can hardly walk.
They can hardly walk.
Nurse Bishop
I'll just say this again instead of in the middle if my amazingly long posts. Talk to text is not always a good thing.
The dogs in the 60s that people are talking about.....in America....were mostly American bred show dogs and those lines. Organized SchH was not here yet. So trying to link those dogs to SchH isn't quite accurate. Maybe Steve felt they were dangerous due to a higher degree of social aggression without sufficient nerve strength. I saw plenty of American bred dogs back then that I would classify that way. Now we have dogs who lack social aggression and the nerves aren't so great either but people think the nerves are good due to the lack of SA.
And again, make no mistake, there were some people trying to train or trial with dogs that didn't have the genetics but the rules and the judging, stopped those dogs from getting the SchH 1....which was considered the breeding title.
The dogs in the 60s that people are talking about.....in America....were mostly American bred show dogs and those lines. Organized SchH was not here yet. So trying to link those dogs to SchH isn't quite accurate. Maybe Steve felt they were dangerous due to a higher degree of social aggression without sufficient nerve strength. I saw plenty of American bred dogs back then that I would classify that way. Now we have dogs who lack social aggression and the nerves aren't so great either but people think the nerves are good due to the lack of SA.
And again, make no mistake, there were some people trying to train or trial with dogs that didn't have the genetics but the rules and the judging, stopped those dogs from getting the SchH 1....which was considered the breeding title.
I'm not trying to link them to Schutzhund Anne, only speaking in the context of these threads that all German Shepherds should be something, when the reality is they never all were. Your point about not getting the best dogs from Germany is another part of it. I'd bet people have always been sold titled dogs that wouldn't do a retrieve, but they still have that title. I like IPO, but I'm not saying its the be all and end all, I don't think it ever was. It still comes down to the people.
I may have blurred a couple things, going back and forth between show and working. The entries I mentioned were in the show, not schutzhund. Here's another sight matching the 1982 entry, thats about all I can find.
BSZS results : Year selection
The entries for the Bundessiegerprufung follow a similar, but not as dramatic pattern.
89 dogs in 1982, slowly growing to 100 in 1992 and to 149 in 2018. More dogs bred, more dogs shown, more dogs trialed, more demand.
BSZS results : Year selection
The entries for the Bundessiegerprufung follow a similar, but not as dramatic pattern.
89 dogs in 1982, slowly growing to 100 in 1992 and to 149 in 2018. More dogs bred, more dogs shown, more dogs trialed, more demand.
Yes, there were always dogs that Germans were discarding for one reason or the other. However, until the mid to late 90s the ones I saw and worked as the helper, were legitimately trained and knew the exercises. I didn't come across a fake titled dog until 1997 I think it was. VA 2 ,(US), "SchH 3" dog who was here for training before the next big show. Didn't know what a sleeve was, didn't know what a dumbbell was and had the worst temperament I think I've ever seen in a GSD. Seemed to have something similar to springer rage.
Starting in the year 2000, I attended numerous trials and breed surveys where dogs were chased by the helper and given titles and KKL1 for life. And it wasn't just in my area. When people are being honest, they will admit that they have seen it as well. That didn't happen for the first 30 years I was involved in SchH but people who weren't there can continue to tell themselves it was always this way. Nothing I can do about that.
Starting in the year 2000, I attended numerous trials and breed surveys where dogs were chased by the helper and given titles and KKL1 for life. And it wasn't just in my area. When people are being honest, they will admit that they have seen it as well. That didn't happen for the first 30 years I was involved in SchH but people who weren't there can continue to tell themselves it was always this way. Nothing I can do about that.
ms Vandal
to your comment " That is not the case now and I see many dogs passing that really have no business having those letters after their name"
I have lost the interest in going to trials.
I can't see the point.
One dog mid 1990's - ltrained to perfection , trained and trained and trained to over come its weakness - a significant weakness qualified and went abroad to Nationals.
It was ALL training. the trainer? hats off to them for their determination and skill.
this works for trial/ sport -- real life work -- a disaster -- needing to be culled from the program asap.
forward in time to maybe 15 years ago . A gsd working line , very soft and insecure, but owner having spent the $$ was determined to title. So he hired a decoy with a good eye and a good read on the dog who would
condition and accommodate the dog and the dog showed enough to trial.
But they soon found out that not all decoys had the secret special eye or treatment and so the dog went
backwards. Two steps back.
More training by his helper friend.
hey there he is again at a trial -- doing alright -- coming up to the courage test , tjere is a pause and the
helper is switched to the dogs "buddy".who does the courage test not running at but running backwards to catch
the dog.
leaving a lot out .... go to trial .
At this point Linda was no longer going to the trials - having seen enough nonsense to seriously question the
validity of titles .
Went with anohter forum member -- this trial --- a dog left the ring and rummage through the group of
onlookers . To me that is a DQ. The "crowd" thought so -- NO -- he ranks high in the scores.
When a group asked about the rules - the answer was judges discretion.
Another trial -- a dog enterted , xreaming in the car, screaming on the field, screaming during the entire
routine . NO control , dog heeling on left , large portion crossing behind and walking on therogjt . tjem fp;;pwomg
tje jamd;er . barking his head off at the guys bum.
No outs . Dog places .
I think I went to one other after that . Friend and trainer par excellance that I recommend often as a trainer - with a stunningly beautiful , correct , dark sable dog , that was jaw dropping precise .
I saw training and team work and a willing dog . I did not see power or drive -- I get elbowed -- you should breed to that dog --- Uh no , I couldn't the dog doesn't have the heart or fire in the belly or initiative .
Judge does the critique all good good good , and then he warns the audience , with respect to the handlers skill and he says "the dog pretty much phoned it in = needed spirit .
this dog would have been a dream come true pet and obviously a fantastic demonstration dog .
I saw the sire in a trial - dang , the smae thing -- so the youngeer dog came by it genetically.
and that reminds me of one newbie performance with the handler with typical nerves . Good dog .
Handler stops short of the required steps - dog so familiar with pattern continues , going the distance and
platzes.
Cute -- every one had a chuckle -
young pups are shwn in training and it is all condititioning -- training the pattern , not traiining the dog.
to your comment " That is not the case now and I see many dogs passing that really have no business having those letters after their name"
I have lost the interest in going to trials.
I can't see the point.
One dog mid 1990's - ltrained to perfection , trained and trained and trained to over come its weakness - a significant weakness qualified and went abroad to Nationals.
It was ALL training. the trainer? hats off to them for their determination and skill.
this works for trial/ sport -- real life work -- a disaster -- needing to be culled from the program asap.
forward in time to maybe 15 years ago . A gsd working line , very soft and insecure, but owner having spent the $$ was determined to title. So he hired a decoy with a good eye and a good read on the dog who would
condition and accommodate the dog and the dog showed enough to trial.
But they soon found out that not all decoys had the secret special eye or treatment and so the dog went
backwards. Two steps back.
More training by his helper friend.
hey there he is again at a trial -- doing alright -- coming up to the courage test , tjere is a pause and the
helper is switched to the dogs "buddy".who does the courage test not running at but running backwards to catch
the dog.
leaving a lot out .... go to trial .
At this point Linda was no longer going to the trials - having seen enough nonsense to seriously question the
validity of titles .
Went with anohter forum member -- this trial --- a dog left the ring and rummage through the group of
onlookers . To me that is a DQ. The "crowd" thought so -- NO -- he ranks high in the scores.
When a group asked about the rules - the answer was judges discretion.
Another trial -- a dog enterted , xreaming in the car, screaming on the field, screaming during the entire
routine . NO control , dog heeling on left , large portion crossing behind and walking on therogjt . tjem fp;;pwomg
tje jamd;er . barking his head off at the guys bum.
No outs . Dog places .
I think I went to one other after that . Friend and trainer par excellance that I recommend often as a trainer - with a stunningly beautiful , correct , dark sable dog , that was jaw dropping precise .
I saw training and team work and a willing dog . I did not see power or drive -- I get elbowed -- you should breed to that dog --- Uh no , I couldn't the dog doesn't have the heart or fire in the belly or initiative .
Judge does the critique all good good good , and then he warns the audience , with respect to the handlers skill and he says "the dog pretty much phoned it in = needed spirit .
this dog would have been a dream come true pet and obviously a fantastic demonstration dog .
I saw the sire in a trial - dang , the smae thing -- so the youngeer dog came by it genetically.
and that reminds me of one newbie performance with the handler with typical nerves . Good dog .
Handler stops short of the required steps - dog so familiar with pattern continues , going the distance and
platzes.
Cute -- every one had a chuckle -
young pups are shwn in training and it is all condititioning -- training the pattern , not traiining the dog.
I think that one of the things that is missed when comparing dogs of the past to the present is the effect that working/show “ lines” has had on the breed. As I have said repeatedly lines based on show/work is detrimental to the breed. If you look at the dogs that placed high or even won the German work( Bsp) and German show(BSs) nationals in the 50s, 60s, and 70s....you would see the genetics and progeny of the winners in the show ring were also successful in the working trials. Today with the extreme proliferation of the number of dogs, (as has been noted), you will see virtually no crossover of the two. The working lines don’t win in shows and the show lines can’t/don’t compete at higher levels of sport/work. So what is my point in reference to dogs of the breed today and yesteryear?? Welll, it’s a non disputed fact that 70% ( or thereabouts) of all German Shepherds in Germany are Black and red show lines, and probably a higher percent is exported by them throughout the world today. So when I look at the breed as a whole( as I do as a non line believer) then I see MORE of the breed today that does not reflects what I read in the standard, notwithstanding the health issues. So to my way of observing, I see far less dogs today that can continue the legacy of the breed ( as Slam has often said) then in years past. Sure there were bad/good dogs then and now, as there were good/bad trainers then and now....but genetically because of the saturated lines you have entrenched traits in the breed that have moved the breed away from utilitarian functionality. There are huge segments of the breed that are only functional as pets( and this statement is not said to be judgmental), and because there was no express show line or show color in those days you didn’t see the numbers you see today.
My post is not judging pet or show or sport dogs, but rather explain why you see more of some things today and less of others as opposed to the past.
Finally, even in sport, I was at the WUSV( world German Shepherd Sch competition) in 98 in Boston, 2008 in Florence, and 2013 in Phila for all four days in each instance.....and I see differences in performances and genetic bases from 98 and the dog’s in 2013. A definite shift in type of dog and training.....time never stands still, but that’s why we have documents( standard) to see if wee are on track or straying.
My post is not judging pet or show or sport dogs, but rather explain why you see more of some things today and less of others as opposed to the past.
Finally, even in sport, I was at the WUSV( world German Shepherd Sch competition) in 98 in Boston, 2008 in Florence, and 2013 in Phila for all four days in each instance.....and I see differences in performances and genetic bases from 98 and the dog’s in 2013. A definite shift in type of dog and training.....time never stands still, but that’s why we have documents( standard) to see if wee are on track or straying.
continuation 2
it has been often said that there is a great deal of ignorance in this GSD enterprise.
Sometimes by sheer numbers that crowd, loud and proud , have influence especially on the newcomers who don't have their feet underneath them, haven't done their homework or just want to belong and join the status quo.
A lot of the guardians who knew the breed and saw the changes, and aren't dropped into the "now" , the new
normal now, are disappearing .
I was , am , extremely fortunate to have counted to fierce ones among my friends - Joe Kuhn and Linda Shaw.
Some chest thumping troglodyte, sorry trogs , will go on a campaign to diminish the efforts and success of others.
Herd control?
Case in point , since in the previous post we were looking at the show lines excluding , and the working lines
being open to including a particular line as needed and then move on -- as it should be.
this female Chateau von der Mahler-Meister
wisely and with purpose this female produced Jura (female) KNPV and Sch H and she in turn produced Lubeck (male) KNPV PH MET LOF 432 and he in turn produced Gandalf KNPV MET LOF at under 14 months of age and brother Gideon who is off the screen because he is a working police dog. and progeny contributing to a police breeding program
but this person with figuratively 2 minutes in the GSD "game" needed to offer nonsense .
so - this is looking at the WHOLE breed --- what is going on -- I needed to share this to show how decisons can be influenced.
back to the long Aly questions -- **************
quote
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either. there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.
Aly asked
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, exclusively, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?
there was a commission to have images created , standard ilustrated wihci reflected the standard adopted by the ASL . A standard totally created and divergent from anything that the SV or otherEU countries have . At least the WGSL's can say that there was a master plan to improve the dog.
Norht America was always a dumping ground. There were some nasty , unstable , anti-social gsd that were exported to all to anxious buyers wanting to be members of the GSD club.
I have German Shepherd (GSDCofA) Revies going back to the early 70's so can see changes and promoted dogs through out the decades.
There were some good American breeding programs . Some good imports. .. and then along comes
Troll a good dog with impressive achievements and you have the beginnings of a new directon.
https://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/tdogs/TrollRichterbach.html
little new - if any -- outside German blood has been added since.
Every once in a whle you might see an American kennel bring in WGSL . To help the temeprament. ??
I don't understand why the free spirit breeders who distanced themselves from the German lines could not
say , this is our breed, we satisfy ourselves , our needs, we like this and this is OUR American shepherd dog.
Hypocritical ?
If you look at that graph which illustrates the genetic island of the WGSL and the working lines , then the ASL's would be an even more distinct island .
why? Because the WGSL's can and do go back to "other" "show lines" . Distant .
the ASL's tend to spring board off Troll . Very limited.
it has been often said that there is a great deal of ignorance in this GSD enterprise.
Sometimes by sheer numbers that crowd, loud and proud , have influence especially on the newcomers who don't have their feet underneath them, haven't done their homework or just want to belong and join the status quo.
A lot of the guardians who knew the breed and saw the changes, and aren't dropped into the "now" , the new
normal now, are disappearing .
I was , am , extremely fortunate to have counted to fierce ones among my friends - Joe Kuhn and Linda Shaw.
Some chest thumping troglodyte, sorry trogs , will go on a campaign to diminish the efforts and success of others.
Herd control?
Case in point , since in the previous post we were looking at the show lines excluding , and the working lines
being open to including a particular line as needed and then move on -- as it should be.
this female Chateau von der Mahler-Meister
wisely and with purpose this female produced Jura (female) KNPV and Sch H and she in turn produced Lubeck (male) KNPV PH MET LOF 432 and he in turn produced Gandalf KNPV MET LOF at under 14 months of age and brother Gideon who is off the screen because he is a working police dog. and progeny contributing to a police breeding program
but this person with figuratively 2 minutes in the GSD "game" needed to offer nonsense .
so - this is looking at the WHOLE breed --- what is going on -- I needed to share this to show how decisons can be influenced.
back to the long Aly questions -- **************
quote
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either. there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.
Aly asked
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, exclusively, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?
there was a commission to have images created , standard ilustrated wihci reflected the standard adopted by the ASL . A standard totally created and divergent from anything that the SV or otherEU countries have . At least the WGSL's can say that there was a master plan to improve the dog.
Norht America was always a dumping ground. There were some nasty , unstable , anti-social gsd that were exported to all to anxious buyers wanting to be members of the GSD club.
I have German Shepherd (GSDCofA) Revies going back to the early 70's so can see changes and promoted dogs through out the decades.
There were some good American breeding programs . Some good imports. .. and then along comes
Troll a good dog with impressive achievements and you have the beginnings of a new directon.
https://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/tdogs/TrollRichterbach.html
little new - if any -- outside German blood has been added since.
Every once in a whle you might see an American kennel bring in WGSL . To help the temeprament. ??
I don't understand why the free spirit breeders who distanced themselves from the German lines could not
say , this is our breed, we satisfy ourselves , our needs, we like this and this is OUR American shepherd dog.
Hypocritical ?
If you look at that graph which illustrates the genetic island of the WGSL and the working lines , then the ASL's would be an even more distinct island .
why? Because the WGSL's can and do go back to "other" "show lines" . Distant .
the ASL's tend to spring board off Troll . Very limited.
continued part three ************
this should be a quicky
Aly's post quote
"Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
...the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .
Yes, a similar thing happened/is happening with IWs and very likely other breeds, as well, given the undue (IMO) emphasis on breeding to a 'winner' and/or backmassing on same. With IWs, the problem is further magnified by the fact that the available gene pool (viz., population of IWs worldwide) is severely limited to begin with. "
I believe you may have ordered Margaret Derry's Bred for Perfection.
You will be shown the folly of breeding selection criteria.
You will be shocked at how minuscule the genetic diversity is .
We had a world renowned dairy operation - a solid jog or whort bicycle ride from my house .
The land went up for sale for development -- cattle , flushed ova and sperm put on auction.
This made the news , this made the TV . That farm was that respected -- world wide . You had bidders
come in from Japan.
Knowing the family -- I got a lot of breeding talk in --- as I did with the stud books that were opened , have some copies kicking around - for Northern Dancer and the E P Taylor stables.
Any way world wide there are probably ONLY FIVE bulls total which are responsible for producing. they are all
an incestuous mess - and showing the repercussions -- health , vigor, longevity , all reduced dramatically.
this should be a quicky
Aly's post quote
"Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
...the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .
Yes, a similar thing happened/is happening with IWs and very likely other breeds, as well, given the undue (IMO) emphasis on breeding to a 'winner' and/or backmassing on same. With IWs, the problem is further magnified by the fact that the available gene pool (viz., population of IWs worldwide) is severely limited to begin with. "
I believe you may have ordered Margaret Derry's Bred for Perfection.
You will be shown the folly of breeding selection criteria.
You will be shocked at how minuscule the genetic diversity is .
We had a world renowned dairy operation - a solid jog or whort bicycle ride from my house .
The land went up for sale for development -- cattle , flushed ova and sperm put on auction.
This made the news , this made the TV . That farm was that respected -- world wide . You had bidders
come in from Japan.
Knowing the family -- I got a lot of breeding talk in --- as I did with the stud books that were opened , have some copies kicking around - for Northern Dancer and the E P Taylor stables.
Any way world wide there are probably ONLY FIVE bulls total which are responsible for producing. they are all
an incestuous mess - and showing the repercussions -- health , vigor, longevity , all reduced dramatically.
Camspack> " the saddle back comment with the picture of a horse with blanket, rider with good seat
was a pporly veiled flipping the bird."
Flipping the bird? Where does that come from? I said 'Obviosly I like blanket backs'. It was an example. My next picture was Inga with her blanket back. I always thought that she has an overly large saddle mark on her back.
Many posters here on germanshepherds.com, I do feel like are like family, sort of like remote cousins I have never actually met but correspond with. We are dog people and are by nature pack-like. I like it here, obvuously.
So people are saying its not about your personal GSD so don't get defensive and then go one to run down her ancestors People criticise my dogs bloodlines. They insullt my dogs genetics, the very core of her being (although she is intact she will never reproduce). I feel like I am developing my own personal 'bitch stipe'. Its like hearing people say that such and such line of people tend to be weak character, have low average IQs, tend to be involved in crime. How do you like it when you personally know wonderful examples of human beings from that line of people?
All I did was ask if roach backs were being bred out. Apparently there are some WGSL breeders in the US who are not breeding dogs for shows. This is a good thing. Lets look for kennels in the United States were WGSL puppies are being selected for and bred that are properly built, with strong nerve, are versatile and tend to live long healthy lives.
was a pporly veiled flipping the bird."
Flipping the bird? Where does that come from? I said 'Obviosly I like blanket backs'. It was an example. My next picture was Inga with her blanket back. I always thought that she has an overly large saddle mark on her back.
Many posters here on germanshepherds.com, I do feel like are like family, sort of like remote cousins I have never actually met but correspond with. We are dog people and are by nature pack-like. I like it here, obvuously.
So people are saying its not about your personal GSD so don't get defensive and then go one to run down her ancestors People criticise my dogs bloodlines. They insullt my dogs genetics, the very core of her being (although she is intact she will never reproduce). I feel like I am developing my own personal 'bitch stipe'. Its like hearing people say that such and such line of people tend to be weak character, have low average IQs, tend to be involved in crime. How do you like it when you personally know wonderful examples of human beings from that line of people?
All I did was ask if roach backs were being bred out. Apparently there are some WGSL breeders in the US who are not breeding dogs for shows. This is a good thing. Lets look for kennels in the United States were WGSL puppies are being selected for and bred that are properly built, with strong nerve, are versatile and tend to live long healthy lives.
Cattle genetics, this is what I see on this ranch- for example- How long does a trait tend to persist?
A very light colored Hereford marked cow for example. She is a pale beige but you can see she still has the Hereford markings (white face, white stripe down the neck, white belly, white legs, white tail switch. She is 7/8th Charlois. (Charlois is a French breed of white cattle). Her great grandmother was a Hereford and the marks persist. Her own calf, sired by a Charolais bull, does not have the markings and is even paler than her dam. It took 5 generations for the trait to go away.
So if a GSD six generations back was roach backed and then only properly built animals were bred into the line with no inbreeding, how long would the roach back gene persist? Breeders among us please explain, what generations genotype would still influence the present phenotype?
A very light colored Hereford marked cow for example. She is a pale beige but you can see she still has the Hereford markings (white face, white stripe down the neck, white belly, white legs, white tail switch. She is 7/8th Charlois. (Charlois is a French breed of white cattle). Her great grandmother was a Hereford and the marks persist. Her own calf, sired by a Charolais bull, does not have the markings and is even paler than her dam. It took 5 generations for the trait to go away.
So if a GSD six generations back was roach backed and then only properly built animals were bred into the line with no inbreeding, how long would the roach back gene persist? Breeders among us please explain, what generations genotype would still influence the present phenotype?
Two of my uncles were dairy farmers. One got into it quite a few years before the other (he was older) and had purebred pedigree Holsteins right from the start. The younger brother got into it more gradually. His cows were a mixed bag, and most had no pedigrees. He did mixed farming: selling the cream to a local dairy, and using the skim milk to fatten pigs. When I asked him about reproductive problems, and calves not surviving, he said to me, "Oh my brother has it much worse than I do!" meaning the purebred pedigree stock had a lot more issues.
He eventually bought into a purebred herd, and a farm with a modern pipeline milking system (no more lugging those heavy milkers that hung under the cows!) and began selling whole milk. Would be interesting to ask him about how things went for him then!
My Jersey cow is the progeny of a working dairy Jersey cow and a cleanup bull. That is, after cows bred by artificial insemination to high producing bulls they might come back into heat, so they are turned in with a Jersey 'cleanup bull'. Daphne is not a high producer. But what would I do with 8 gallons of milk a day? This is a pet cow that as a calf, selected me. As I leaned on the fence veiwing the available heifer calves, a sandpaper-like tongue bagan to lick my leg through the corral fence. Disposition is what she shows strongly, as you can see. Now back to GSDs
Attachments
I can give an example of a trait being bred out. Many dairy goat herds remove babies from mothers at birth. They prefer does who will drop a kid and walk away and never look back. They actually select for that.
I found that horrifying and sold does who had difficulty kidding or were poor mothers. But people who bought goats from me were by and large also homesteaders, who would not want a doe who could not raise her own kid.
Craziness
I found that horrifying and sold does who had difficulty kidding or were poor mothers. But people who bought goats from me were by and large also homesteaders, who would not want a doe who could not raise her own kid.
Craziness
I found this section on the wikipedia site about GSds
Modern breed
The structure of the body of GSD
The modern German Shepherd breed is criticized by some for straying away from Max von Stephanitz's original ideology that German Shepherds should be bred primarily as working dogs and that breeding should be strictly controlled to eliminate defects quickly.[25][26] He believed that, above all else, German Shepherds should be bred for intelligence and working ability.[27]
Controversy
The Kennel Club, in the United Kingdom, is involved in a dispute with German Shepherd breed clubs about the issue of soundness in the show-strain breed.[28][29] The show-strains have been bred with an extremely sloping topline (back) that causes poor gait in the hind legs. Working-pedigree lines, such as those in common use as service dogs, generally retain the traditional straight back of the breed.
The debate was catalyzed when the issue was raised in the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which said that critics of the breed describe it as "half dog, half frog". An orthopedic vet remarked on footage of dogs in a show ring that they were "not normal".
The Kennel Club's position is that "this issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed's essential conformation and movement."[28] The Kennel Club has decided to retrain judges to penalize dogs suffering these problems.[30]
The Kennel Club also recommends testing for haemophilia and hip dysplasia, other common problems with the breed.[31][32]
this is the picture from that part of the discussion. They are refering to the British Kennel Club.
Modern breed
The structure of the body of GSD
The modern German Shepherd breed is criticized by some for straying away from Max von Stephanitz's original ideology that German Shepherds should be bred primarily as working dogs and that breeding should be strictly controlled to eliminate defects quickly.[25][26] He believed that, above all else, German Shepherds should be bred for intelligence and working ability.[27]
Controversy
The Kennel Club, in the United Kingdom, is involved in a dispute with German Shepherd breed clubs about the issue of soundness in the show-strain breed.[28][29] The show-strains have been bred with an extremely sloping topline (back) that causes poor gait in the hind legs. Working-pedigree lines, such as those in common use as service dogs, generally retain the traditional straight back of the breed.
The debate was catalyzed when the issue was raised in the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which said that critics of the breed describe it as "half dog, half frog". An orthopedic vet remarked on footage of dogs in a show ring that they were "not normal".
The Kennel Club's position is that "this issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed's essential conformation and movement."[28] The Kennel Club has decided to retrain judges to penalize dogs suffering these problems.[30]
The Kennel Club also recommends testing for haemophilia and hip dysplasia, other common problems with the breed.[31][32]
this is the picture from that part of the discussion. They are refering to the British Kennel Club.
Attachments
This is the pictrue on the wikipedia site entitled " German shepherd, working type, shorthair, dam." She has as a back just like Inga, doesn't she? People are (righteously I might add) dissing WGSLines> Recent Show Dog Winners. Thats why I started the thread. Not all WGSLs are horrible examples! One of Ingas GG Grandsires was Zamp von Thermados! It was a long time ago. The roach back was quietly bred out of her line by American breeders who thought this roach was not to standard. But they didn't show the dogs, because they wouldn't have won.
Attachments
Who are these people judging GSDs in America? We need to toss them out and get some new ones. They are ruining the breed.
neo grenzlager
Neo vom Grenzlager
troll v d bosen nachbarschaft
the topline includes the neck , back of neck , withers , latyback of scapula , the back, the loin, the croup
don rolandsteich
Don vom Rolandsteich
hey , whiy not -- carmspack kilo
Carmspack Kilo
Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft
Neo vom Grenzlager
troll v d bosen nachbarschaft
the topline includes the neck , back of neck , withers , latyback of scapula , the back, the loin, the croup
don rolandsteich
Don vom Rolandsteich
hey , whiy not -- carmspack kilo
Carmspack Kilo
Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft
this is a beautiful working conformation
Eros Busecker Schloss Eros vom Busecker Schloß
Faust Busecker Schloss used before as an example
any one who is seriously studying GSD should study Alfred Hahn , and study the
pedigrees
I don't know how to get the two images side by side - meaning the wikipedia "ideal" posted by
Nurse Bishop and an image of Eros .
if someone can ?
Eros Busecker Schloss Eros vom Busecker Schloß
Faust Busecker Schloss used before as an example
any one who is seriously studying GSD should study Alfred Hahn , and study the
pedigrees
I don't know how to get the two images side by side - meaning the wikipedia "ideal" posted by
Nurse Bishop and an image of Eros .
if someone can ?
So you don't like the picture. What the wikipedia article says about problems with the breed still stands.
" Modern breed
The structure of the body of GSD
The modern German Shepherd breed is criticized by some for straying away from Max von Stephanitz's original ideology that German Shepherds should be bred primarily as working dogs and that breeding should be strictly controlled to eliminate defects quickly.[25][26] He believed that, above all else, German Shepherds should be bred for intelligence and working ability.[27]
Controversy
The Kennel Club, in the United Kingdom, is involved in a dispute with German Shepherd breed clubs about the issue of soundness in the show-strain breed.[28][29] The show-strains have been bred with an extremely sloping topline (back) that causes poor gait in the hind legs. Working-pedigree lines, such as those in common use as service dogs, generally retain the traditional straight back of the breed.
The debate was catalyzed when the issue was raised in the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which said that critics of the breed describe it as "half dog, half frog". An orthopedic vet remarked on footage of dogs in a show ring that they were "not normal".
The Kennel Club's position is that "this issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed's essential conformation and movement."[28] The Kennel Club has decided to retrain judges to penalize dogs suffering these problems.[30]
The Kennel Club also recommends testing for haemophilia and hip dysplasia, other common problems with the breed.[31][32]
(this was the picture from that part of the discussion). The article is refering to the British Kennel Club.
" Modern breed
The structure of the body of GSD
The modern German Shepherd breed is criticized by some for straying away from Max von Stephanitz's original ideology that German Shepherds should be bred primarily as working dogs and that breeding should be strictly controlled to eliminate defects quickly.[25][26] He believed that, above all else, German Shepherds should be bred for intelligence and working ability.[27]
Controversy
The Kennel Club, in the United Kingdom, is involved in a dispute with German Shepherd breed clubs about the issue of soundness in the show-strain breed.[28][29] The show-strains have been bred with an extremely sloping topline (back) that causes poor gait in the hind legs. Working-pedigree lines, such as those in common use as service dogs, generally retain the traditional straight back of the breed.
The debate was catalyzed when the issue was raised in the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which said that critics of the breed describe it as "half dog, half frog". An orthopedic vet remarked on footage of dogs in a show ring that they were "not normal".
The Kennel Club's position is that "this issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed's essential conformation and movement."[28] The Kennel Club has decided to retrain judges to penalize dogs suffering these problems.[30]
The Kennel Club also recommends testing for haemophilia and hip dysplasia, other common problems with the breed.[31][32]
(this was the picture from that part of the discussion). The article is refering to the British Kennel Club.
One of WGSL Ingas great great grandsires was none other than Zamp von Thermados, the horrible example of the roach back, (although Linda Shaw shows him as having a beautiful ideal head). That means Inga is 1/32nd from Zamp von Thermados. Breeders of German Shepherd dogs here I ask you, what is the percentage of influence of a single dog 6 generations back?
that is correct .
I don't like the image that they chose to represent an ideal or even as an average of what a working line dog
should or does look like.
You can not teach properly with more flawed information.
you asked does this working dog representative resemble "my own" meaning your dog Inga .
look at the examples posted that are working line with beautiful correct top lines.
I don't like the image that they chose to represent an ideal or even as an average of what a working line dog
should or does look like.
You can not teach properly with more flawed information.
you asked does this working dog representative resemble "my own" meaning your dog Inga .
look at the examples posted that are working line with beautiful correct top lines.
One of Ingas Great Great Grandsires is none other than Zamp von Thermados, roach backed, although Linda Shaw shows him as an exapmple of having the ideal masculine head. That means Inga is 1/32 Zamp von Thermados. Professional GSD breeders here I ask you, what is the influence of a dog six generations back?
-- it continues--
By the time we get back 10 generations, the contribution from each of the 1024 ancestors would, in theory, amount to slightly less than 0.1%. However, in the pedigree of the average purebred dog, there are seldom more than 100-200 different names and some appear 50 times or more. These are the significant ancestors that make the major genetic contributions.
If you have a pedigree, you can calculate % contribution of any repeats simply by multiplying the number of times each ancestor appears in any generation by the appropriate percentage for that generation and then add together all of the calculated percentage of contributions from each generation. The table listed below shows the percentage of blood inherited from each ancestor at the given generation levels. Generation "1" is the parents.
Genetic Contribution of Ancestors by percentage
Generation-[one-50% [two-25% [three-12.5% [four-6.25% [five-3.125 [6-1.56 [seven-0.781% [eight0.391 [nine-0.195
By the time we get back 10 generations, the contribution from each of the 1024 ancestors would, in theory, amount to slightly less than 0.1%. However, in the pedigree of the average purebred dog, there are seldom more than 100-200 different names and some appear 50 times or more. These are the significant ancestors that make the major genetic contributions.
If you have a pedigree, you can calculate % contribution of any repeats simply by multiplying the number of times each ancestor appears in any generation by the appropriate percentage for that generation and then add together all of the calculated percentage of contributions from each generation. The table listed below shows the percentage of blood inherited from each ancestor at the given generation levels. Generation "1" is the parents.
Genetic Contribution of Ancestors by percentage
Generation-[one-50% [two-25% [three-12.5% [four-6.25% [five-3.125 [6-1.56 [seven-0.781% [eight0.391 [nine-0.195
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
