Nurse Bishop, I'd take her home and feed her, for sure! Nice looking girl!

As for the working lines, it's extremely hard right now to find one without this dog in its pedigree multiple times, as well as his two most popular sons, Troll and Timmy. Again, notice the changes to the angle of the pelvis and croup, similar to Bomber:

Got to get that precious V conformation rating, so mimicking the showline structure!

Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich

 

But the reason you see Fero so much in working line pedigrees really has little to do with his conformation. He produced lots of winning sport dogs, and dogs who produced winners themselves (Troll, Timmy, Yoschy).

 

WT, I had a male GSD that nearly killed my cat when I first introduced them. It took awhile, and careful supervision, but he learned the cat was a 'pack member' and not to be harmed. They would actually play together, which was very cute to watch. He became quite depressed when the cat slipped out of the house one night and got run over by a car.

Same thing with my uncle's barn cats: the dog got along fine with the resident cats, but any strange cats it caught on the farm were fair game!

I am sure there are some dogs whose prey drive is too strong to ever be trusted with other animals (terriers especially, because that's what they're bred for) but most dogs can be taught to leave them alone.

 

WT, I had a male GSD that nearly killed my cat when I first introduced them. It took awhile, and careful supervision, but he learned the cat was a 'pack member' and not to be harmed. They would actually play together, which was very cute to watch. He became quite depressed when the cat slipped out of the house one night and got run over by a car.



Same thing with my uncle's barn cats: the dog got along fine with the resident cats, but any strange cats it caught on the farm were fair game!



I am sure there are some dogs whose prey drive is too strong to ever be trusted with other animals (terriers especially, because that's what they're bred for) but most dogs can be taught to leave them alone.

To me that’s behavior modification, not actually ridding the dog of drive.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes, of course. But the V rating sure doesn't hurt his popularity!

Unfortunately, the backmassing that is occurring on these dogs is NOT good for the breed. It is producing dogs that have trouble capping their drive.

 

My dog has a super straight back, I'm always getting questions about it at the dog park. "Isn't his back suppose to be arched downward?", no, no it is not. It's like even the general public expects GSDs to look this way now. It's sickening tbh.

 

No matter how sad, I do understand why they are breeding away from the original standard in temperament and drive. Society has changed; people are working full time and dogs, any breed, have to conform to this new way of life. How many dogs have the luxury to be a true working dog, how many dogs can truly use their aggression and hard drive without causing law suits? Most are pets. Many of us have here working dogs but once a week an agility session or PP training doesn't cut it for them really. I am just as guilty of course, even though I am home with them and work and play with them whenever I can but they don't have a real job. Yet they seem happy and content, despite their intensity and drive. I feel guilty that they have to contain their prey drive with an E-collar but that's the way society is right now; if they were caught chasing deer, they would be impounded or hit by a car.
It seems that nowadays, people go for the looks when choosing a breed and the various temperaments have melted into a generic type of personality in dogs. As an example: while living in Europe, I saw the Bouvier having been morphed into a 'bear rug'; soft coat and lazy.

 

This is an excuse used to destroy a breed all in the name of $$$$$$$$$$$$. The problem is, that in the process of trying to make a prick eared dog for everyone, they are destroying the temperament, nerves and health of the breed. Have watched it happen in so many working breeds.

 

If people could see how much the watered down versions are absolutely not good pets, maybe they wouldn't try to justify it.
I own and operate a boarding kennel. It's a rarity to see a good German Shepherd come in here nowadays and sadly, that includes working line dogs. Most behave like idiots, are neurotic, try to destroy the fencing, bark endlessly, try to attack their neighbors through the fence etc.....all due to their incredibly bad nerves and weak temperament.
The good ones are much more composed and can remain calmer due to their stronger nerves and temperament. They really stand out, I have one here right now that makes me stop and take notice because he is such a good dog.
The answer does not lie in destroying a breed to satisfy the lazy people who shouldn't own a dog. The answer is to discourage those people from having them. and also for knowledgeable dog people to spend more time educating the incredibly ignorant masses. Yes, it is difficult to place a good dog, any good dog, but that's no reason to destroy the breed. Sorry I absolutely do not agree with the above post.

 

So essentially the GSD is a product and in order to increase sales they've been watered down to make them more appealing to the general public.

 

My husband and I were talking just this morning about our next dog, hopefully in the far distant future, will be a Mal. But if we hadn't learned to train Inga, we would be out of our league with a Malinois.

 

Hi Vandal - could you clarify exactly which post you were referring to when you said " Sorry I absolutely do not agree with the above post." because the post directly above your post was Lisa's and it was pretty good.

it happens that by the time you have typed and submitted your post drops down below some other entries posted within seconds of your own.

I said before that you have to have an image of the ideal , which may be imperfect but has to be balanced to remain totally functional.

so back to this --- in this thread we seem to be having two levels of conversation
one is to share what should be , what could be , with historical references and current research and
reference material . This conversation comments on the SV sanctioned destruction of a noble "legendary"
breed started by yourself Bishop with the horrifying backs thread title.

the dogs are abnormal -- dysfunctional . If I had to make a good comparison to explain the level of "grotesque"
(Vandal's word) I would take a common goldfish - natural carp body - darting through water and compare it to a "fancy goldfish" with its roached back and compressed organs , who expends enegy, struggles , and goes nowhere .-

the second level of conversation is happy pets and happy satisfied owners - but they are not breed examples
to aspire to for the breed at large.

here we go quote

"Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
""It means that the WGSL dogs were bred from solid nerve, biddable dogs for generations.

Unfortunately by no means is this anywhere near the truth. It just is not so.
Look to the best of the best at the SV sieger show and see the comedy .

there is no active aggression, no mental or physical stamina for pressure and tension - all the while remaining in self control.

sorry

Nurse Bishop
Those were dogs in a show, showdogs in Germany 11 years ago. What are GSDs supposed to do in a show? Have rolling dogs fights?

Carms, really I appreciate and respect your expertise, but I am really only interested in the WGSL dogs avaliable to the ordinary person in the United States. WGSL decendants were were bred from dogs that had to be titled in something usefull for generations. I would like to see pictures of dogs belonging to members here, just standing there not stacked.

Nurse Bishop "Those were dogs in a show, showdogs in Germany 11 years ago. What are GSDs supposed to do in a show? Have rolling dogs fights?"

??? no one is referring to a single video -- because the situation has not improved , if anything it is worse.
I know they were German dogs , German show line dogs , in Germany.
I don't follow your question about what they are supposed to do . Do you suggest that I expect them to have
dog to dog dust ups?
Is that a question you would ask of someone that you say you respect for some level of "expertise"

What are they supposed to do. WELL when they are tested (oh brother) in the protection phase I expect , oot hope, expect to see commitment, confidence,, courage and control.
I want to see a dog who knows why he is there .
Instead you have dogs skidding , circling, playing with or avoiding the decoy , ooops I mean helper , and taking goose pecks a the arm , looking around for the handler .

this is not some pals getting together to have some fun with their dogs --- this is the big money event representing the best that the SV (showlines) has to offer . Opportunities for big commerce , because these are your breeding animals .
the breeding animals that will produce all those GSD available to the ordinary person in the USA .

You state again " WGSL decendants were were bred from dogs that had to be titled in something usefull for generations. "

But those are the dogs in the SV Sieger show held up to international ridicule because the performance has
deviated so much from the "legend"
Pick a year 2016? 2017? I'll look forward to 2018.

 

Hi Vandal - could you clarify exactly which post you were referring to when you said " Sorry I absolutely do not agree with the above post." because the post directly above your post was Lisa's and it was pretty good.

Anne and I posted at the same time. I think she meant the one before mine.

 

Rip gsd

This is so sad. The grotesque conformation of these dogs are just the tip of the iceberg. I suspect the temperaments of these dogs are even worse. Max von Stephanitz must be rolling in his grave.

 

Recently became acquainted with a gorgeous black and red German showline who seemed to have all the Right Stuff. Tons of drive, excellent retrieves on the dumb bell and nice focused heeling. His structure was very solid, too, with no visible roach back. He was from a very well known local kennel that has been breeding for many years. Wow, maybe there IS hope after all!

Then I saw his bitework. The decoy spent most of their practice time trying to get the dog to take a decent full-mouth grip on the sleeve. He also showed the curled back lips (sign of nerves/avoidance) that Carm or Gustav pointed out in a photo of my showline dog. His bark on the bark and hold was high-pitched and nervous.

I've heard it said many, many times. The full-mouthed bite is genetic. You really can't train it. And these dogs don't have it anymore.

 

yeah - there are some of those kennels run by a second generation --

I have said this before - that is fine and dandy - but you don't ride on the coat tails , you don't capitalize on some one elses reoogniition (deserved or not) .

go out , get and operate under your own name.

there - done and out of the way.

put this on a tee-shirt -- It is easier to find drive than it is to find NERVE

that is the core of the problem

 

My American bred for generations WGSL, straight backed ranch dog who brings me whatever horse I point at, who has the courage to take on a bear or a sounder of wild hogs, who stands for gunfire, who knew 30 commands by age 2, she is just a no good useless WGSL with a bitch stripe. I guess I'll have to get a Mal next time. And by the way, this thread has become like Aella's wolf pit.

 

My American bred for generations WGSL, straight backed ranch dog who brings me whatever horse I point at, who has the courage to take on a bear or a sounder of wild hogs, who stands for gunfire, who knew 30 commands by age 2, she is just a no good useless WGSL with a bitch stripe. I guess I'll have to get a Mal next time. And by the way, this thread has become like Aella's wolf pit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqJHqXERslM

see - that is the other discussion . One is about the over all state that is in desperate need
of a reality check and change .
the other conversation is a defense of your personal dog , a singular dog .

Then, even with all that , you announce that your next dog will be a Mal . Situation better there? I don't think so .

There are people that have invested the majority of their life , decades, with high exposure to hundreds of dogs , bearing witness to the continuing decline of the GSD and posting it right here in this thread .

I value their experiences . It is consistent with mine.

The Linda Shaw Illustrated Stndard for the GSD was the result of three years of intense
focused work . I saw the drafts - she had full access to my "library" which has arcival books and material you can't buy .
There was an urgency to her effort. How many times did I hear this "I hope I'm not too late"

After three years pass and time passes with the launching of this best ever resource breed refernce book - the phrase had changed to a I thnk it is too late .

It is not about your dog.

 

Inga gives me a fine sense of security here at this ranch and especially when I am alone in the forest in Oregon. Its not a false sense of security, its real.

Don't worry, I am not going to breed Inga. She is 2" over standard and her eyes are too light. But I see and train the dog in front of me, and she is an amasing dog, the best I have ever known in my life.

 

Nurse Bishop- you have to understand that the critique of the value of titles has nothing to do with your dog. I like to see titles on a dog, and back in the pedigree, but I do agree with those that say they are not everything. You have to know what those titles actually represented. You cannot know that just by looking at titles listed on a computer screen.

For example... I have two WL dogs. My male was my first GSD. I had no real idea what I was doing when I bought him. His parents were imported with titles, every dog in 7 generations of his pedigree was titled. His breeder was recommended on this forum, as well as by a trainer local to me when I was searching. He is a mess. His temperament is not what anyone would want when looking for a GSD, and he has a myriad of health issues to go along with it. Many of his siblings and half siblings have issues, both health and temperament, as well. In his case, those titles meant nothing. They did not make him a solid dog. They did not make him a healthy dog. Don’t get me wrong, I love him, and at home he is a good dog. But I cannot do the things I set out to do with him because genetically, he has weak nerves and is afraid of everything.

My girl’s parents are also both titled. Most of the dogs in her pedigree are titled. Her breeder and the owner of her sire trained and titled their dogs themselves. They knew their dogs, they knew generations of their dogs’ relatives. Those titles mean something. Not because of the title itself, or the singular performance on the day they trialed their dogs, but because they took what their dogs showed them through years of training and looked at what the relatives to their dogs did -and produced- and made informed choices about their breeding plans. My girl is solid, can go anywhere, no issues. She’s healthy. She has a good balance of drives. She is fun to train in all of the venues we’ve tried. Her littermates and half siblings are also solid.

There is a world of difference between the type of breeder who really understands their dogs, and works and titles them because they love their dogs, and the training, and the breed, and a breeder who slaps two dogs together because they happen to be titled, or they happen to be “pretty”, or they happen to be nice pets, with no real plan or expectation of what is to come from the breeding.

 

You can look at titiles and know they were titled in something. That means the parents had to be solid and trainable. Maybe not in bitesports, but something. Of course not every breeding crossing two great dogs or any animals for that matter turns out great in the crap shoot of genetics. The great racehorse stallion Secretariat was a flop at the stud.

I was a and am a total novice to GSDs. My whippet had died and I was lonesome for a dog and I wanted a real dog this time. Not that soft and gentle sighthounds are not real dogs, but I wanted a dog that was harder, intelligent, trainable and protective. I liked the look of Greman Shepherds, their strength and power, their beauty and alert look. So on the internet I found a breeder of GSDs that was somewhere in Central Texas. I did not ask where they WL or SL, I didn't know what that was. I went over there and Inga, 5 weeks old at the time, climbed into my lap three times. She picked me. That how I pick animals that are pets, like it's just meant to be. And it WAS meant to be. I took her home when she was old enough and she passed the vacuum cleaner test. yes, the vacuum cleaner test! Afraid of the vacuum? Not at all. hahahaha. Follow me into the surf and swim in the ocean at a few months old? She did that too. Come walking around a curve in the road just as neighboring ranchers opened up on the firing range? She just stood there. I said Hey look shes not even scared. They laughed and said thats because she is a police dog (some people refer to GSDs as police dogs, Inga is not and was not bred from police dogs). A handful to train, I had to teach myself to train and used every toy in the box. She is strong willed, not like any sighthound I have ever known. How did this happen? A dog bred fro WGSL- maybe I just got lucky.

I am certainly not qualified to tell people how to breed GDSs or select a GSD puppy. I just saw an alarming video of the horrible way some german show dogs in 2007 walked. I did not even watch the whole thing because I could not bear to watch. Oh, was there a protection test too? Thank god I didn't see it. Apparently, some people are breeding the roach back out.

We all agree here, that the GSD as a breed is going downhill, literally and figuratively. I would say to novice puppy pickers- look at the line of the backs of the parents and grandparents. Do some kind of a puppy test for nerve. Ask about hip and elbow status and history of genetic disorders in the bloodline. After you've got the puppy, don't let him be exposed to other dogs or anywhere other dogs have been until fully vaccinated. Train your puppy and raise him right. These are not oridinary dogs.

 

Nurse Bishop, I don't think I saw a single person say a single negative thing about your dog. In fact, most people have simply stated that poor breeders produce poor dogs that are moving away from what German shepherds are supposed to be. Nobody said that all show lines are worthless. Nobody said that ALL show lines are unstable, weak-nerved, unhealthy, or anything of the sort. They merely commented on what they had seen from many show line dogs, or many GSDs in general, regardless of the line. Many is not all. If your dog is a great representation of the breed, great! That is all we want. It isn't about WGWL, WGSL, ASL, DDR, or anything like that. It is about responsible breeding and dogs that are good representations of the breed. The SV has been doing poorly with that lately. That is all. No one said anything about your dog whatsoever. No need to get extremely defensive.

For what it's worth, my WGSL puppy was a total mess, but I loved him anyway. It was heartbreaking when he died. He came from a breeder that had all titled dogs, but she didn't work them herself. I should have taken that as a no-go right there, but I didn't. The people on this forum were nothing but kind, supportive, and helpful when I asked for help with him. Nobody told me he was worthless because of his lines. Everyone just wanted to help, and I couldn't have been more grateful. Next time I will be more careful about where I get a puppy, and who knows? I may get another WGSL dog again. They can be amazing dogs, just like working lines can. It's all in the breeding.

 

I really like that kind of dog

 

Sunsilver,. That is what I have, gsl and asl. Exactly what I wanted. 5 months old and so far he is perfect.

 

Watch the videos from the Sieger show, and they will convince you of how little titles really mean. ALL those dogs must be titled in IPO before they can even enter the show. Yet, from the way some of them react in the courage test, you'd wonder how they managed to title.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with IPO, even the IPO1 protection routine is more demanding than the Sieger show test. Even so, a lot of dogs fail:

From an article written by Koos Hassing (Tiekerhook Kennel) in 2010:

Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection. Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung. I doubt that the number of failures had ever been that high. My information showed that protection may have been judged marginally harder but not significantly harder than in years past. I was even told that had the helper work been consistent for all the dogs there would have been even more failures.

There were glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and those from show lines. OK, that may not be such a big deal, but it clearly accentuates how big the differences are.

Only a few years ago I myself was a witness to the way protection was handled at the “Hauptzuchtschau”.
I came to the conclusion that some assessments were at the very bottom of the rating “pronounced”, some even below. Dogs who came off the sleeve during the attack on handler still got a rating high enough to remain in the competition. In individual cases apparently the manner in which the dogs prevented the attack (energetic gripping is desired) was of secondary importance. Obviously some things had improved somewhat, but it has to be said. It appears as if the top people in the SV, who got there due to political circumstance, chose this result, and everyone seems OK with that. One would think based on that that the general public is also satisfied with the result! Keep going that way.

In my opinion, this can never be the right solution. The movement in this direction already became apparent years ago. But it is exactly like judging one’s own affairs, it is rejected in society and politically and no significant improvement can be brought about.

https://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.html

 

a video that I have posted a few times over the years in different threads

I did post in on another thread currently running - weak hind leg --

it is very relevant here . The SV knows what it is doing . "Bad" dogs keep disapperaing
to foreing buyers who want to jump onto the band wagon . The GSD investment .

it is in German , but not difficult to understand

 

I will be the first to admit - I am not a GSD breeder - just love them. Currently with my third GSD and first WL male, my first 2 were WGSL, back when they were not as extreme as shown in the video and the topic of discussion here. Did protection work with both of them and they were good dogs. Then I got my current dog and was totally amazed at the difference between him and my 2 previous ones. Might as well be a different breed - body structure, physical and mental strength, energy level, environmentally completely sound. Not saying he is like that because he is WL, but I believe it does have a role to play. We train with a local IPO club and I belong to a small PSA club and currently training for PSA - we even have some cops with their dogs - Malis, WL Rotties, Pitts - so it is a good comparison. Based on my limited experience - and talking to cops who tell me that GSDs are making a resurgence - I am not so down on GSDs. The good ones (all WLs I am afraid), can go toe to toe with the other breeds and even excel - I am witness to it. I guess, you have to look for them - the pedigrees and lines are just great indicators of what the dog can be but what it really is will be dependent on the dog at the end of your leash and how much time you are willing to put in once they show their true potential.

Here is my flat backed male going full steam after the ball after a strenous obedience and bite session in the Florida heat and humidity. Happy as a lark.

Cheers!

 

Great post. It also describes my dogs. They are just above the average dog IMO. It took me decades to make the leap to a good GSD. GSDs have always been my nr. 1 breed so when my first dog, a Bouvier X died, shortly after we moved to the US in the 80's, I was going for a GSD. Up to this time I had always known the dogs from EU.
I thought I was going to get a good dog due to my research about the champion lines but little did I know about the issues in this breed in the US or about the show line vs working line differences. So I thought finding a breeder with show champions would get me good pup. I asked the breeder (in Tri Cities, WA) about these long legs from her adult dogs and she said that this was so desired and they were needed for conformation and movement. Took the pup home and when on a walk, someone asked if the pup had an accident because "she was walking funny". I knew he was right but I was in denial. The pup refused to eat and got weaker and weaker. She even fell over in the car. The breeder blamed it on my young children, who, by the way, were dog savvy and well behaved and told me to force feed her, even if it meant making pancakes for her, which she did for her own dogs, incl. force-feeding . My vet couldn't find anything physically wrong with her and admitted her for observation and put her on steroids to get her to eat. That worked so I took her home but she would only eat on steroids and locked up in a crate. After the steroids stopped she went back to her old refusals to eat. I had a young family with kids and decided that I just couldn't do this anymore and the vet took her in and found a home where they were going to do whatever was needed to get her 'normal'. Honestly, I was relieved and never looked back. Not the best attitude at that time, I know, but the dog had wore me out as a young mom. That was my first GSD and so it took me decades to find my current dogs and having the guts to try again after having had fosters, mutts and Whippets without any issues. But the GSD was still on my bucket list. So in all these years I have learned a lot and also got certified as a trainer for pet dogs.
Disclaimer: I am not bashing show lines here, just telling me my experiences.

 

nice , very nice --
yes they may as well be a separate breed . I have said this so many times - iceberg breeder thread -
in more than one way .
even the genetics -- which solidfied an identifiable physical type .
All that has been done would satisfy the requirements to register a new breed .

 

I'm struck by the gene mapping too, Carmen, and have a serious question: Is this the direction that you think some (presumably WL folks) will pursue? Assembling whatever's necessary to register these dogs as a new breed? More importantly, I suppose, do you think that this is the direction that some should pursue?

Aly

 

this is an excellent question -I hope I understand it properly .
I will do my best to give you an answer - an honest answer , and
quite possibly a complicated answer to a complicated question.

the SV "show lines" which go back to a period in time to a particular
stud and two particular characters , the two Martin brothers , of Wienerau and
Arminius , gripped the wheel and drove the new , their controlled version, of the breed down the road.
So busy looking to see what they left behind in the dust , that they failed to look forward to the cliff they were heading for taking a merry bunch along for the ride to the bottom,
too full of lol Linda's favourite , "the kool-aide" to know what just happened .
Unfortunately "the breed" went with them and is in shambles .

At that historic time the breed began a deliberate separation - a volunteer closing of the
"stud book"
Want to study dynamics in gene selection then take a few days and read ' -- U of T prof
Margaret Derry Bred for Perfection - very readable , very thought provokinghttps://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/bred-perfection p all about human influence , choices and consequences .

the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either.

there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines
have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.
At that time you had the beginnings of a dedicated "American" direction , but the dogs
were still close to German dogs .
Look at Covy Tucker Hill's Angeqlique Tucker Hill's Angelique -- for goodness sake - you had Valet Busecker Schloss , with his Arno sire in the second generation.
Valet is a good dog to find in working lines.

Angelique would have been and did contgribute with progeny within the time period I mentioned - the mid 70's.

At the same time YOU had Lance of Fran Jo who was not a bad dog at all , with his
Troll Richterback in his second generation.

the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .

You start line and inbreeding on these dogs , WGSL's and ASL's and you have a high concentration of "Nestor" -- which brings in TEMPERAMENTAL problems.

the working lines are in the same boat - although not as dense a concentration - because this dog "Nestor" and his origins brought in speed and sharpness

In the working lines you have to look for the balance - look for the inclusion of the three other groups. The Lierberg,s bring in a stabilizing group as does Marko Cellerland.

should the working lines create their own breed -- no , not in that respect .

I don't think it is necessary . I hope they remain or return to the essence of the breed which is not to be a specialized sporting , trilaing dog . \
The essence of the breed and usefulness of the breed is utility , versatility .

That requires that all the historical , core groups , right in the von Stephanitz book, that
were stitched together be utilized .

iif I fell short of giving an answer - try me again . I'm game.

is ver

 

this is an excellent question -I hope I understand it properly .
I will do my best to give you an answer - an honest answer , and
quite possibly a complicated answer to a complicated question.

Yes, Carmen, you did. Thank you for taking the time to map out a complicated answer --- with suggested reading materials! FWIW, Hopkins press has the Derry book for almost half the cost that Amazon does; can't wait for it to arrive.

At that historic time the breed began a deliberate separation - a volunteer closing of the "stud book"

Okay, when you reference closing of the "stud book" do you mean SV show lines only or something else? Do you know what the rationale was for deciding to close the stud book? Dollars again or something else?

the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either. there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, exclusively, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?

...the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .

Yes, a similar thing happened/is happening with IWs and very likely other breeds, as well, given the undue (IMO) emphasis on breeding to a 'winner' and/or backmassing on same. With IWs, the problem is further magnified by the fact that the available gene pool (viz., population of IWs worldwide) is severely limited to begin with.

should the working lines create their own breed -- no , not in that respect .

I don't think it is necessary . I hope they remain or return to the essence of the breed which is not to be a specialized sporting , trilaing dog . \
The essence of the breed and usefulness of the breed is utility , versatility .

That requires that all the historical , core groups , right in the von Stephanitz book, that were stitched together be utilized .

Okay, so now I'm going to assume the role of Devil's Advocate, with just a touch of personal interest. This is a fascinating and important (IMO) discussion to read, think about and participate in, but it's at a different level of analysis (What's Best for the Breed) than I suspect that many owners exist. Or, perhaps, even want to exist.

At a different, more individual level, the question becomes "How does all that history and politics map onto and shape my choices as a GSD owner?" I grew up with GSDs, love the breed dearly, but far too many of the dogs I see now literally hurt my heart. Do not misunderstand, this is not a plea for a Golden/Lab in a GSD suit; far from it. But, if a critical aspect of the breed's character is its versatility and I believe that it is, then it should be suitable for an active home. Not limited to sports, LE, or invasion forces. If so, perhaps the earlier suggestion of more focussed varieties has merit.

iif I fell short of giving an answer - try me again . I'm game.

Not at all, thank you for the thoughtful response. You've got me researching Thuringian dogs and Swabian shepherds --- between thinking about and typing segments of my response. Fun thing to do and think about on a rainy Saturday morning.

Thanks,

Aly

 

Ugh, as someone who adores a nice West German Showline, this thread makes me sad. And it's because I totally agree with a lot of what is being said here. To me, a nice WGSL dog is one that isn't over-angulated and doesn't walk like it has to pee. I'm active in SV showing and know some of the top WGSL breeders and judges, and frankly I believe that the conformation judges are killing these lines. One of the reasons that I love these dogs is because WGSLs used to not have that over-angulation that has become so prevalent in American Lines. However, more and more, the more angulated dogs are winning and it's driving me up a wall.

There are a few WGSL breeders out there who are very focused on breeding the whole dog, including breeders who focus a lot on working ability. But those breeders don't make it very far in the big shows because, frankly, the VA dogs are being chosen based on looks rather than the whole dog. I've seen amazing WGSL dogs with super drive perform awesome in the courage test, and those dogs get low ranked and out-ranked by dogs they could work circles around (even dogs who pulled up or hesitated in the IPO ring.)

I also saw Zamp mentioned here and, yes, those breeders who rely on his lines won't say it, but he has been known to throw problematic hips and soft hocks. I stay away from his lines as well as some of the other big VA dogs. Honestly, my favorite VA dog (and the grandfather of my boy Wolf) is Furbo degli Achei. Now, even he is more angulated than I would like, but his progeny are sound, good hips, good structure, and he doesn't seem to pass down that over-angulation to his pups. Plus, he passes down good work ability.

So, yes, from someone who is on the inside I can confirm that the judges in the big shows are judging heavily based on looks. I've seen some tremendous working WGSL dogs with good structure, and they always get ranked low. It's frustrating.

So, for my dogs, I go to the breeders who are breeding for the whole dog and I've been happy with my dogs. Wolf here has nice stricture (he's a year and a half), isn't over-angulated, and has great work ethic. We are actually training in detection under a narcotics K9 handler who adores Wolf.

But, yes, overall the WGSLs are being ruined and it hurts to watch.

 

Honestly, my favorite VA dog (and the grandfather of my boy Wolf) is Furbo degli Achei. Now, even he is more angulated than I would like, but his progeny are sound, good hips, good structure, and he doesn't seem to pass down that over-angulation to his pups. Plus, he passes down good work ability.

Mine is a Furbo Great Grandson. He went OFA Excellent. And I am beyond pleased with his work ability and temperament.

Lucky us

 

I will add some more of my perspective on the WL GSD (based on my own dog) - yes, he does have an OFF switch, BUT (in ALL CAPS in case you did not notice), in order for this OFF switch to be effective he needs to be worked hard both physically and mentally. He will be calmly waiting or napping but will be instantly ON the minute I am up - ready to go. If you are NOT willing to work this type of dog PLEASE do not get one as BOTH of you will be miserable and it is not fair to either one of you.

One last comment and I will shut up - last Friday when we were training with the IPO club a local WGSL GSD breeder was also there to work his dog, so he deserves due credit for that. His dog was not bad but I hate to sound arrogant nowhere near the WL GSDs, Malis, WL Rottie (smaller and faster than the huge ones one might be familiar with), and Pits (these Pits are not your typical American lines with the huge dish shaped heads and bulky bodies - they are medium size, wiry and all muscle, with the speed and aggression level that is impressive). As I was walking across with my dog right after the gun shot test and PSA type bitework he came up to me and commented on his calm nerves during the test (was on a long down throughout the gun test and barked once), the intensity of his bitework and his muscles and physical structure - and as you can see from his picture he looks nothing like a SL. This gives me hope that SL breeders are noticing this stark difference and hopefully will be working towards narrowing this huge chasm that exists today.

 

rana I like your posts
just one thing, not from this one but your previous one --- nice dog -- but the terminology for the topline - the back should not be called a flat back --- the back is
dorrect and in order to be correct it has to have a well defined strong neck , and a well defined , wither which flows harmoniously into a strong back and that into the croup or
pelvis .

when you say flat back there are a lot of owners with honest to goodnes flat backs with no angulation and no withers and maybe straight fronts lacking layback of the shoulder and think that this is correct. It isn't .

your dog in that extension shows the muscle over the wither and shoulder and he shows
beaufiful flex and extension of his hock. See too many with fixed hock which won't allow for maximum push off . so nice dog .

to this post - the importance of the pff switch , beyond not getting on your nerves , is that in real work - tending sheep, guide, therapy / assistance , guard , law enforcement is that there are frequent and sometimes long periods of inactivity . But the dog can't check out. He needs to be calm yet watchful while the sheep peacefully graze.
He can't exhaust his adrenals , anxiously waiting or leaking with activity to instigate a reason to act .

I think this is an area that needs to be addressed by the "working" group (sporting)
because it is necesary in real work life.

your comments about the Sl dog that came out to your club -- good on you - I too recognize and appreciate a good dog no matter where it comes from.
Some of you might not think so - but it is a fact.
My french ring trainer friend has had a few young dogs from a local wgsl breeder , on contract to get all the basics of puppy hood , basic manners , basic obedience and later wehn mature enough for advanced training. I trust him .
I think the kennel is the same breeder of that beautiful sound and stable and eye catching correct wgsl line pup that Linda Shaw and I saw at one of the last shows we
attended . The rest of the story --- the dog in the conformation line up was dead last.
they are not a minor or anonymous kennel - they are chaning directions and no good
deed goes unpunished.
the pressure is on.

 

kimbale - post

quote " more, the more angulated dogs are winning and it's driving me up a wall. "

up the wall - lol -- there was a time that the GSD had the physicality and the BOLDNESS (a missing modern trait in ALL groups) to scale a wall, climb a ladder , scale 8 to 10 and higher vertical walls .
how's this ? Tall enough

I participated in North America's first French Ring Campagne trials . My dog Kilo had to do the palisade which enclosed him , so no room to get a running jump , and scale an 8 foot vertical wall. Done with ease.

I am sorry . I can't imagine any of the VA's and V's WGSLs doing this . The shoulder can't open, the back , spine can't flex, and the rear can't power up.

kimbale
"There are a few WGSL breeders out there who are very focused on breeding the whole dog, including breeders who focus a lot on working ability. But those breeders don't make it very far in the big shows because, frankly, the VA dogs are being chosen based on looks rather than the whole dog. I've seen amazing WGSL dogs with super drive perform awesome in the courage test, and those dogs get low ranked and out-ranked by dogs they could work circles around (even dogs who pulled up or hesitated in the IPO ring.)

I hope that they continue with intelligent decisions and ethics . They won't be rewarded by the SV , or it's representatives. They won't be embraced and welcomed by their local breeders and competitors .
Not a "club" member , you're not eating at this table.
People will deny . I have seen cheating that crosses the line of competitive advantage . That lack of morals and
need to win , for me, puts the entire kennel name into question.
don't ask.
They will be the outliers.

kimbale
"I also saw Zamp mentioned here and, yes, those breeders who rely on his lines won't say it, but he has been known to throw problematic hips and soft hocks. "

never mind Zamp - how about Uran Wildsteiger Land -- nice dog - bred to death (figuratively - wll maybe literally too lol ) big numbers -- to the limits allowed numbers - and then you go through the SV das schaferhund magazin you will see public statistics on Uran's hip production . Horrible -- not strong enough .
Large number of the most severe "schwere" that is seriously bad , ratings.

when do you call and end to something.

this dog appears multiple times in a pedigree - so line breeding --- .

on a happier note the magazin(e) that I randomly chose was from 2008 and the feature breeder/ kennel interview was the mr and mrs Kemmer , breeders of noteworthy KARTHAGO (working) kennels.
Refreshing to see so many nice dogs.

Kimbale -- good luck with your WOLF -- nice example of what can and should be .