[Caroline5]

Next time I will be going myself to meet the mother and hopefully the father too, and I will sit with the litter and observe them myself until I know which one is the right one for me.

Just a thought... read the German Shepherd standard, the part on temperament, and do some serious thinking about what qualities, and how those qualities will be exhibited in a pup or an adult, are to be considered bred to the standard.

You can't base you idea of an ideal Shepherd on what you have experienced in your life. In order to be fair to yourself and any GSD you may own in the future, you need to have realistic expectations of the breed and what it should be.

Plus sadly, the breeding and selling of gsd has become big business in Europe and most people want dogs for sport. They want dogs with high drive and the higher the better. They are getting away from what the standard says the temperament should be like. So American dogs don't know how to work and don't have the stamina either and European dogs have drive that is to high.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

Plus sadly, the breeding and selling of gsd has become big business in Europe and most people want dogs for sport. They want dogs with high drive and the higher the better. They are getting away from what the standard says the temperament should be like. So American dogs don't know how to work and don't have the stamina either and European dogs have drive that is to high.

I don't know. From what I understand, the US is so large that few areas have clubs and those that do have clubs seem to have them clustered.

I am not sure how high drive GSDs are getting away from the standard. Here is a nice article on sheep herding and high drive. Heyne believed that the higher the drive the better.
German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne

From that article is seems that high drive GSDs are spot on for expected GSD behavior.

There was just a long thread on here recently about ASL's successfully herding and having the stamina to do it.

Define drive that is too high.

 

[Caroline5]

Sadly there are few gsd who are truly bred to the standard. Many people have read the standard and interpretinterpreted it incorrectly. For example what does the word sharp mean to you?

IMO, a sharp dog is a dog that is a little quicker to react to stimuli. As long as it is backed up with strong nerves, it reflects breed standard.

Here is the breed standard, this is the only interpretation that matters.

"The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."

Sorry was just comparing English translation to the german standard.
My mother and I were discussing the german standard a few days ago and I asked her exactly what sharp means. She said it means tough, protective. Won't let anyone in and aggressive when necessary. It is not vicious and won't bite without reason.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

Sorry was just comparing English translation to the german standard.
My mother and I were discussing the german standard a few days ago and I asked her exactly what sharp means. She said it means tough, protective. Won't let anyone in and aggressive when necessary. It is not vicious and won't bite without reason.

WGSLs are not going to be bred to the AKC standard, but regardless, the interpretations are not all that dissimilar. I would not necessarily equate sharp with tough but protective, but both the AKC and the SV standard calls for a dog with the ability to protect so a GSD that is sharp falls well within the realm of normal. I would not say that a sharp dog would not let anybody into a home but ALL GSDs should be aggressive when necessary, it is the breed standard.

AKC standard: "The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character."

 

[Caroline5]

The English translation that you posted was done by Fred Lanting and is a translation of the original standard. The german standard on the SV website is not the same as the original written by Stephanitz and so far I have been unable to find it online.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

The English translation that you posted was done by Fred Lanting and is a translation of the original standard. The german standard on the SV website is not the same as the original written by Stephanitz and so far I have been unable to find it online.

From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.

 

[Caroline5]

Sorry was just comparing English translation to the german standard.
My mother and I were discussing the german standard a few days ago and I asked her exactly what sharp means. She said it means tough, protective. Won't let anyone in and aggressive when necessary. It is not vicious and won't bite without reason.

WGSLs are not going to be bred to the AKC standard, but regardless, the interpretations are not all that dissimilar. I would not necessarily equate sharp with tough but protective, but both the AKC and the SV standard calls for a dog with the ability to protect so a GSD that is sharp falls well within the realm of normal. I would not say that a sharp dog would not let anybody into a home but ALL GSDs should be aggressive when necessary, it is the breed standard.

AKC standard: "The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character."

Wesen
Sicher und selbstbewusst, robust, unbefangen, aufmerksam, physisch und psychisch hoch belastbar.

Verträglichkeit
Gutes und sicheres Sozialverhalten, verträgt sich nach entsprechender Sozialisation sehr gut mit Menschen und Tieren im Familienumfeld.

I love what it says in the last line, gets along well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialization.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

Wesen
Sicher und selbstbewusst, robust, unbefangen, aufmerksam, physisch und psychisch hoch belastbar.

Verträglichkeit
Gutes und sicheres Sozialverhalten, verträgt sich nach entsprechender Sozialisation sehr gut mit Menschen und Tieren im Familienumfeld.

I love what it says in the last line, gets along well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialization.

I agree that is one of the hallmarks of a good German Shepherd.

 

[Caroline5]

From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.

I am trying to find it and haven't had any luck so far. I nearly got away with nabbing the book from my mom last time I was there because she had invited me to go through all of her gsd books and take what I wanted, well except that one.

 

[melissajancie]

Do you know the trainer David MacMillan?

Yes, he has been around for years. He has trained horses of some of my friends. If you want particulars then PM me please.

 

[Caroline5]

From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.

So are you saying that the german standard on the SV website is the original written by Von Stephanitz?

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

So are you saying that the german standard on the SV website is the original written by Von Stephanitz?

I am saying that I have been told that the temperament section is as the original.

 

[Caroline5]

I am saying that I have been told that the temperament section is as the original.

This one from the german SV page is the original? Wesen
Sicher und selbstbewusst, robust, unbefangen, aufmerksam, physisch und psychisch hoch belastbar.

Verträglichkeit
Gutes und sicheres Sozialverhalten, verträgt sich nach entsprechender Sozialisation sehr gut mit Menschen und Tieren im Familienumfeld.

or the one written by Lanting? "The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

There is only one SV standard as quoted above.

 

[Caroline5]

There is only one SV standard as quoted above.

Ok, because the Lanting translation is not the same as the SV standard.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

They all basically say the same thing, even the AKC.

 

[Caroline5]

They all basically say the same thing, even the AKC.

4
Ok, I'm going to have to call mama tomorrow to have her check the book and see what it says there, because Lanting added things that are not in the standard on the SV website.

 

[Caroline5]

4
Ok, I'm going to have to call mama tomorrow to have her check the book and see what it says there, because Lanting added things that are not in the standard on the SV website.

Either that or the SV has changed the standard because it is not the same as what Lanting said or what the AKC says. The English translation on the SV website is the most accurate translation of what the German temperament standard says on the SV website.

Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

"This is the “SV” standard originally set up by Max Von Stephanitz (the “inventor” of the German shepherd). It is currently managed by FCI whom allows the country of origin to dictate the standard. The standard itself is in German but this entry has been translated by Fred Lanting."

"The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

"The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong
nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and
(except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive
and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour,
resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion,
guard, protection, service and herding dog. "

http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf