Furthermore, her sire has produced many puppies with all kinds of temperaments from laid back to high drive. His owner is the one that recommended this litter to me and believed that she would be a good fit. As is sometimes the case, her high prey drive dominant temperament blossomed after leaving her mother and siblings who were more dominant than she was.

 

We have a very different way of viewing things, which is okay.

Like I said, best of luck to you in your puppy search. I hope you find a good fit.

 

Exactly.
But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?

 

Without seeing the puppy, nobody can determine anything for sure. You already sent the puppy back. Time to move on.

 

True, I know you haven't seen her, but I'm just curious, hypothetically speaking, if a friend of yours had a puppy who had experienced all sorts of exposure, who had not been tormented, who had gone to puppy kindergarten and knew the basic commands, come, sit, down, stay, leave it etc, who lived in a happy home where there was no arguing and you were told that they has behaved like that around a group of kids, would you say that was normal for a 4 month old high prey drive gsl puppy?

 

I think from here we can segue into the topic of tail positions. A fearful and nervous dog carries their tail tucked down whereas a dominant and confident dog carries their tail out and curled up, Aria's tail was nearly always carried up with it curled. I never saw it tucked between her legs, she rarely behaved like the pup in the playful position and definitely never like the ones in the nervous, frightened or submissive pictures. When she lunged and went after people or dogs it was with her tail in the aggressive position. There is so much we can learn about how a dog is feeling by watching their body language.

 

No doubt we can get a jump on our dogs by reading their posturing......but....my bitch did pretty much as you described....only with other dogs...however.....I saw it more as a function of insecurity versus dominance or true aggression...even though she will stand her ground nose to nose. I'm probably wrong but if my domineering pushy bitch was as dominant as she pretends.....she wouldn't be pretending by displaying the type of posturing you are describing.


SuperG

 

Based my other post on your description only......so!!!! ****IF**** the pup was truly in aggression rather than fear - then she was NOT of correct temperament and not only should not be kept as a pet in your family, but should not be used as a breeding female.

I stand behind my opinion that a 4 month old pup should be happy, outgoing, friendly - no matter what the lines or the breed - it is a baby and has no reason to fear or be aggressive at that age.

Another explanation for the tail position you saw is purely simple that she had a conformationally incorrect "gay tail"....and nothing to do with attitude.


Lee

 

I don't think you should feel bad. I once rescued a purebred Siberian Husky off of Craigslist. Brought him to the vet and everything. He was a good dog, but just not the right fit for my home so I rehomed him to an experienced Husky owner. I drove rather far to meet with this person also. The moral of the story is, if the dog isn't a right fit for you, then there is nothing wrong about giving it back to the breeder, experienced owners, or rescues. Being miserable, both you and the dog, would ultimately just hurt the both of you in the end. Now being separated the pup has a chance of getting a more fitting home and you have a chance to feel comfortable and get a pup you really want.

 

Ok, I know I'm driving you all crazy by not letting go, but here is something else to consider. Let's say Aria had been my first gsd and I had come here in distress not knowing what to do and been told her behavior was normal german shepherd puppy behavior. I might have thrown in the towel right then and there without knowing that not all gsd are like that and never known the joy of owning one who was right for me.

 

Wait. Exactly what blame are you trying to lay at the feet of the people on this board?

That some say the behavior sounds normal? That some, including myself, say that we can't be sure because we haven't seen the puppy in person and there are other variables?

Seriously, nobody here knows you. You could be completely over your head with a gold fish and we couldn't possibly know that. So how is it anyone's fault on this board if a person decides they can't handle a certain puppy and decides to not get another one? Why is anyone going off the word of strangers on the internet when quite often the advice is 'go find a trainer to help you in person'.

Do you want us to help justify your decision by saying the puppy was weak nerved? Aggressive? Genetically inferior in some way? You made your decision. It wasn't the right puppy for you. Period. End of discussion. We don't need to help justify your decision based on something you say that may or may not be an accurate depiction. You don't need to justify your decision to us. It was yours and yours alone to make.

 

I don't disagree with that. But the way you stated your post puts blame on the people here in your hypothetical situation. That would be unfair and really out of line. 99.9% of the time, people are told to go find a trainer and often recommended to them.

There was a person just recently with an aggression issue. Had been through several trainers telling her not to worry about the behavior So a person could be thru a dozen cookie trainers with bad advice and bad training and the problem could simply be the training and not the dog. Sometimes the dog just needs to be told "No! You will NOT do this". Or it could be the dog. We are sitting in our living rooms and can't possibly know for sure.

And, the bottom line for your situation is, this was your decision to make. There is no shame in making this decision that can only be the best for you and the dog. You don't need to justify that decision to anyone. It's a hard call to make and you should be commended for making it.

 

My dog would have killed the parrot and probably the cats as well if given the chance, yet she is stable but intense. There is nothing wrong with Deja so that in itself is not a sign that there was something wrong with the pup. I think, Caroline, you need to stop dwelling on it and move on, like others have said. Maybe this thread has run its course and we are talking in circles.

 

Actually Selzer answered my question and confirmed what I had been feeling all along. That is that Aria's behavior was at the extreme end for gsl and that there are gsl with much calmer temperaments.

 

I have a WGSL who has some spunk and an edge to him. The breeder trains for sport as well as show, and I think she considers working ability when breeding. I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in IPO and I imagine her dogs don't compete with the top working lines, but my dog has some drive, definitely prey drive. In fact, the breeder said she usually recommends pups out of another of her females for people looking only for a family pet. I wasn't worried, as my last dog was from working lines, which I also enjoy. I don't really notice a lot of difference between Asher and my working line, except Asher is more social and less suspicious of people. I would really like to get chickens. But I'm pretty sure Asher would chase them and be too rough (not to say he'd purposely hurt or kill them), so I have, for the time-being, abandoned that idea. He's good with kids though and is instinctively gentle with my toddler. He has also bonded to one of my cats--the cat will jump in his ex-pen and sleep beside him, though he will occasionally chase the skittery one. If I had a parrot, I would be very cautious. I don't think he'd be a good dog to have around horses. Our neighbor keeps horses in our back field, and he is obsessed by them. He would love to chase them, but he will never get that chance.

(Incidentally, my working line GSD was wonderful with our cats, a sheltie, a 10 lb Pomeranian, an african-grey parrot, cockatiels, rabbits, ect. He only disliked strange dogs that were not a part of his pack).

It sounds like you ended up with a puppy that was not suited for your family, that perhaps was very high drive, and perhaps might be happier in a working home. The dog is young yet and shouldn't have any trouble finding another owner. You didn't drop him off in a kill shelter, abandon him along the side of the road, or sell him on craigslist to an inexperienced or incapable owner. Plus, you chose a breeder who is responsible enough to take back a dog that was not working out. I think your puppy will be fine. And I think you will have a better experience with your next GSD, should you decide to try again. There are several members of this forum who have lovely ASL GSDs. You might want to contact Xeph. I don't know her personally, and I've never met her dogs, but if I was looking for an american showline, she'd be a breeder I would be interested in.

I also have a white shepherd. I hesitate to recommend them to anyone because there is such a bias against them, and you have to sort through a bunch of bad breeders to find a decent one, but if you're looking for a softer, mellower GSD with lower drive, they could be a possibility...

 

The dog is hyper and lacks impulse control...ergo must be good for Schutzhund..lol

 

As soon as she is old enough the breeder will be sending her for training in Germany.

 

The English translation that you posted was done by Fred Lanting and is a translation of the original standard. The german standard on the SV website is not the same as the original written by Stephanitz and so far I have been unable to find it online.

 

From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.

 

There is only one SV standard as quoted above.

 

Ok, because the Lanting translation is not the same as the SV standard.

 

They all basically say the same thing, even the AKC.

 

4
Ok, I'm going to have to call mama tomorrow to have her check the book and see what it says there, because Lanting added things that are not in the standard on the SV website.

 

"This is the “SV” standard originally set up by Max Von Stephanitz (the “inventor” of the German shepherd). It is currently managed by FCI whom allows the country of origin to dictate the standard. The standard itself is in German but this entry has been translated by Fred Lanting."

"The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."

 

Yes, I have read that, I am just curious as to what it says in German.

 

"The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong
nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and
(except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive
and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour,
resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion,
guard, protection, service and herding dog. "

http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf

 

Here is an exact translation of what it says on the German SV website. Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.

 

@Chip18

The advice you give about your pit experience is going to get a cat killed one day.

 

It is scary that people will think that a dog's raw genetics could be so easily, and permanently, changed in 24-48 hours as some trainers online would have you think. They need to start regulating those Youtube charlatans.

 

So sorry ..."with all due respect"... "No One Can Tell Me That I Did Not Do What I've Done???" "Dog tested and cat approved " "there shall be consequences for poor choice!" Show Me kinda thing. And sigh ... as I want to say ..."There is always that guy" ... so you know ... Dog Tested ... Cat Approved ... "there shall be concensequese ..."for poor choices!" Nuff Said.


You trained him to behave in front of you. But that was only one time and 24 hours isn't enough time to know if training even took. We took in a Mal for training due to going after small dogs and cats years ago. He got 'hung' a couple of times by the other trainer as when corrected he would go up the lead. She got him to where he sat next to her and didn't move, left the cats alone. He did great for a week. The day before he was to be sent back home with lots of admonitions that he never would be able to be fully trusted the Mal went after a cat again. I work rescue and you don't want to know how many dogs come in because they killed the family cat after years of getting 'along' just fine. But you can't train genetics out of a dog. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

It is posts like this that makes wish there was a standing ovation button.

 

Chip, you have a very easy dog. Why would you even think about wanting a pit bull or another dog that requires that much maintenance?

 

Well ...Thank You ... I kinda thought being able to "achieve" that was kinda the whole point of "training/rehabbing" dogs?? And so you know ..yes in public with (Me) he appears to be just like any other well behaved doggy.

But so you know and hey if you happen to come to Dayton NV and you stopped at Mavericks and saw him "waiting" for me outside the store and you tried to approach him ... "he would walk away!" Yeah he would technically "Break Place" but you know "rule one" we don't bite people, rule two ...make "Good Choices!" He chooses rule two and will step away!

Just saw it the other day ... as I was stepping from the store .... a women attempted to approach him?? As I was ready to say "whatever??" She stopped when she saw him (Rocky) back up (She was a GSD person as it happens. ) at that point I said "Rocky" and he "then" was fine and was quite happy to meet her.

And at home in eight years ... he is only "allowed" to interact freely (no input on guarding required) with "Two People!" My best friend and my DIL and it was uh years for her ... she lives in Ca so occasional drop in's. Marilyn took advantage of my temporary absence (and hard work) to allow the "DIL" thing ... worked out fine.

For the record ... I have an easy dog now! Because I put the work in back then ... my "Easy Dog" sent me to the ER for stitches (breaking up one of five packs!) And I still have a permanently bent little finger as a reminder ... I lost round one! :surprise:

Round Two, H/A and ... where did this come from?? I learned the value of "outthinking my dog" and the pitfall that is the "my other dogs ... thing." Work with the dog in front of you. Once I better understood that ... it worked out fine. I stopped reacting and started "thinking!" His behaviour scared the crap out of "Marilyn" way back in the day, he was like living with a "tick time bomb!" And he "waited" for seven months before there was any hint of uh ... "issues" that I saw???? So if he is an "Easy Dog" now ... it's becasue I put the work in.

And to your question ... Miss (would have been named Sally) nope I was not looking for a "Pit" still gonna get a Boxer (when the time is right and yeah, I ought to get a Euro ... (GSD in a Boxer suit ... but my girl you know ...so 100 percent American Line it will be) ... I like goofy in my "Boxers!" But you know if a "cool dog crosses my path" if I can I will keep them! I don't care what that dogs "issues are" I can deal.


And you know ... despite how I may come across ... I have learned from others here! Most likely ... had I not been here these few years ... I could not have done what I did with her ... in 24 hours???

So ...my "standard anyone can do this "Cat v Dog" stuff.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html

There you go "anyone could do that "stuff!"


But ... when the "Paws" met the carpet" as it were ... I had no time for that crap! But ... I understand "conventional wisdom! And I'm pretty sure ... "LOL" had I actually chose to "come on here and ask questions" I'm pretty sure how "Experts" would have explained to me 'how what I did can't be done???" So yeah ... I did not bother to post I just did it!

And my "Cats Proofed" it ... but you know, "now" ... after the fact, been there and done it!! "Post Behaviour Modification Analysis" and folks explaining to me??? Why "what I did can't be done??" And fall back postion well sure you did it but it won't stick??? Good luck with that!

But hey I had help. They just don't know it.

But to drop names ... thank you "Voodoolamb" (anyway) you and are your well insistent "Game Bred Pit, Game Bred Pit ." "Sally" was not a "Game Bred Pit (AFAIK)" but she had pretty much every characteristic ...just short of that! So despite the dog friendly, people friendly ... happy go lucky behaviour ... I was on my toes! And when she first saw the cats (while on a freaking leash,) when she first moved toward a cat ... although prepared ... I was stunned at the speed ferocity and power!!!??? "We" ... have a "serious" problem here!!! :surprise:

Next comes "Baillif" if a dog that has a behaviour that is "unacceptable" you squish that behavior cold! And "Slam Dunc" per his advise on an unrelated topic ... I never bothered with my pretty much conventional ... "slight tug sideways thing!" So pretty much hard core ...straight up "KMODT" it was Cat Tested and Dog Approved!

I addressed the serious issue "first" and then it "would" have been on to training but you know ... the dog got returned to her owners .... sigh.

I had her for four days and we only an out the box issue for one! So yeah 24 hours later ... "No Problem! And when I got back home from work all my cats were fine and free as was the dog. As I am want to say "SHOW ME!" Homie school of dog training ... worked out fine.

 

@Caroline5 I sent you a PM

 

I responded. Aria's breeder needs to downsize. I'm not sure if they will be selling one or both of her brothers. They are in Alabama.

 

Great she can get a fake title there and be breeding in no time!

 

I'm confused. Who can get a fake title and be breeding in no time? And what fake title?

 

These working line people, they think if a showline dog is titled, then it must be a fake title.

My guess is they are thinking that the breeder of this dog will title her and then breed her. But, you did the right thing by giving her back to the breeder. What the breeder chooses to do is her business. Your options were clear, return to the breeder or put her down, if you believed her temperament was not correct and in the wrong hands would be dangerous.

 

I believe her temperament is not correct to be a family pet. I know that in a schutzhund home she will excel. She is doing great back with the breeder because she respects him and is #5 in the pack of dogs.

 

Family pet has no real definition. It sounds like maybe this pup would be a fine family pet in an active sport home? We expect so much of our dogs, I wonder how most of them manage to live up to it sometimes.

 

This is taken from the SV website.
Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.

Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.

 

SuperG's fake titles were bought at midnight in a McDonald's Happy Meal. You have to give a special code word when ordering a hamburger meal in order to get the titles.

 

Great.....why don't you tell everyone......well you still need to know the special code.

My bitches current titles listed in the signature are....acquisition of her WPM ...she has a typing rate of 128 words per minute.....her BP and PR ratings are McVet certified at 127 over 76 and 62 beats per minute.

Might have to swing through the drive-thru and get some new ones........

SuperG

 

Every term from that SV website is subject to interpretation and pretty subjective. I've seen multiple threads here on what "social" means, for example.

What might make a fine family pet for some, probably would be a terror for others. I've seen this many times.

What I'm getting at is that sport titles are one attempt to get outside, experienced, and as objective as possible judgement of a dog's temperament. Which is what IPO attempts to do. But the term "good family pet" is so variable, it's nearly impossible to breed to this as a standard. In my opinion, this is especially true for our working breeds that are supposed to have a degree of aggression and prey/fight drive.

 

It says "gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation"
She knew exactly what NO and LEAVE IT meant, but when her prey drive kicked in she refused to listen and obey. At that point our cats were faster than her and would find a bed to hide under, but the day would have come when all doors were closed and they had no place to escape to.