See that's what's got me thinking about it. All of the dogs with generally good temperaments, with handlers that have worked hard to train and socialize....yet many of these dogs are reactive. Obviously frustration plays a huge role, thresholds play a role. I am just wondering why it's so common. I've been doing some deeper digging into relatives of Odin (because he is my ideal dog and if I ever get another GSD I want one like him.) He s not, and has never been reactive, but talking to a lot of the people that own his relatives, sounds like they are all reactive. So now I'm back at square one of which lines I like....

 

Yeah, I guess I feel a bit differently than some here. Likely because my own first GSD experience has been with a reactive/low threshold dog.

I do think it's more down to good genetics, than good socialization. I think a really good, experienced handler can make huge improvements with a reactive dog, but it's a reactive dog all the same. I think this says more about the handler, than the dog, to be honest. I don't think a GSD should have to be owned by a professional handler. They are supposed to be good family dogs, in addition to being able to work. Maybe I don't understand the breed as well as I thought I did.

Where I think a GSD with good nerves and solid temperament, that even a novice handler can be successful, and this is what I had in mind when I thought of what a well bred GSD should be.

As I said, I'm a novice, so perhaps I'm wearing the rose coloured glasses.

I do think socialization is really important, but I don't think your dog should be melting down because it never saw a fluffy Collie before, or another dog made eye contact, or because another dog is playing fetch with it's owner. My dog even started barking in the car at a husky out for a walk with it's owner as we drove past at 80kph.

I thought GSD's were known for keeping a cool head in all kinds of new situations, but this has not been my experience, and I have worked really hard with my dog, as best as I can. She is still young, so I'm hoping things will get a bit better. Some things already have, so I just keep plugging away. And she's a good dog, I love her very much. But easy, she is not.

My friends own her half brother and he is like night and day to her. Energetic, will go all day, but calm in his mind. His littermate is much the same, and is a police K9, so he's still got the ability to work, while keeping a cool head.

Perhaps I simply had unrealistic expectations, but he is what I thought a good WL GSD was supposed to be, and I can't help but feel a bit disappointed that this has not been my own experience. We shall press on, nonetheless.

 

Like most nature vs. nurture arguments, this is probably a false dichotomy. We know from empirical elements that certain behavioral traits are heritable, but "reactivity" can mean such a wide variety of things for such a wide variety of reasons, it makes little sense to describe it as purely genetic or purely environmental.

It seems like in a working shepherd breed, you would have to have much more sensitivity to stimuli to detect threats- vigilance- and I often hear "aloofness" discussed on this board as being correct temperament. So, it seems very likely to me that GSDs are predisposed to reactivity the same way intelligent people are predisposed to depression. Socialization and training can't be effective unless the dog's innate drives and instincts are respected- is that what I'm hearing? Because it seems like GSDs need a particular kind of owner or they pick up bad behaviors, some of which are more "sticky" than others.


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Like most nature vs. nurture arguments, this is probably a false dichotomy. We know from empirical elements that certain behavioral traits are heritable, but "reactivity" can mean such a wide variety of things for such a wide variety of reasons, it makes little sense to describe it as purely genetic or purely environmental.

It seems like in a working shepherd breed, you would have to have much more sensitivity to stimuli to detect threats- vigilance- and I often hear "aloofness" discussed on this board as being correct temperament. So, it seems very likely to me that GSDs are predisposed to reactivity the same way intelligent people are predisposed to depression. Socialization and training can't be effective unless the dog's innate drives and instincts are respected- is that what I'm hearing? Because it seems like GSDs need a particular kind of owner or they pick up bad behaviors, some of which are more "sticky" than others.

Very well said! I don't anyone is saying that reactivity was purely due to one thing or the other, but for some reason people are reading that into some of the replies. :thinking:

 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think genetics are 100% responsible, I don't want to try and shift all the blame to my dog when I know I play a role in this. I just honestly think genetics are sometimes a bigger part than the socialization aspect in some dogs.

Why is my dog so reactive when I've worked so hard with her, exposed her to so much and done so much training with her (and her littermates are much the same, and they are all in working homes), when her half brother has had very little training and socialization and is much more reliable than she is? (and his litter mates are all much easier dogs?) Is that not genetics?

Certainly she's got higher drives than he does, but I don't think they are balanced, and that is genetic, is it not? Otherwise, why do breeders put that on their websites when advertising their breeding stock?

So I do think genetics play a HUGE roll in it. How you handle it is another thing and good handling can overcome a lot, but I don't think it can overcome everything. There is certainly no one answer that will fit all dogs.

I don't want to make my dog sound like the devil here, she's not always foaming at the mouth. But she's a tough dog, as are her litter mates, and the breeder told me she was not going to repeat the breeding because she found the whole litter was too hard in general.

Are people breeding too much for certain characteristics? Some of the schutzhund people I know don't seem to care about socializing or integrating the dogs into their homes, they seem to only care about performance on the field. Does that in turn mean they are breeding dogs who can perform in sport, but not in life? Certainly WL's should have strong drives, but can they be too strong to the point that they are unmanageable and can't think clearly?

I'm just asking, because I'm not really well versed in dog training or breeding (and I'm sorry if I sound stupid). I can only speak from my own experience, and my dog's breeder even said she should not be this difficult.

 

Kaimeju, I really like (and agree with) that post.

I just honestly think genetics are sometimes a bigger part than the socialization aspect in some dogs.

yepyep

And I think GSDs do tend to have a higher incidence of being genetically sensitive to environmental stimuli. Goes with the territory of being a herding/guarding breed... and, unfortunately, with a lot of careless backyard breeding for "protective" dogs, as well as perhaps with some sport lines. I have so little experience with sport GSDs that I'm just going by what other people have said here in that respect, but I can say that I see similarly higher incidences of reactivity among some sport-line BCs.

It does seem like the ultrafast reflexes, high intelligence, and environmental acuteness prized in some lines of agility BCs can also correlate to higher degrees of dog-dog reactivity and spooky-flighty behavior, so I wonder if perhaps something similar might be in play for some of the sport GSDs. I'm just speculating; I might be completely off base. But it's something I do see occasionally in other popular sport breeds.

 

Blackshep I think you hit the nail on the head about a dog being cool headed. That, I think is the one thing in common, I certainly don't believe that all these reactive dogs have bad nerves. They just lack the ability to keep cool, they re hot heads! Putting it that way for me brings some clarity as to what I'm trying to get at/figure out. And really how do you teach a dog to keep a cool head?

 

And really how do you teach a dog to keep a cool head?

This is the million dollar question and I hope that someone can answer it. I think it comes with training, letting them know that you(the handler) is in charge, and I also think they have to be able to think about whatever choice they have and make the right choice. I know that my trainer now wants to let me see if mine can make the right choice and sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't, I guess that is where we step in and show them what the right choice is...this is the part that is hard if the dog has always been allowed to make the wrong choices.

 

Let me ask a question, there are many times a person posts a pedigree and often depending on the pedigree, the really knowledgable pedigree folks will often agree that the breeding has a high probability of reactive aggression. My question, ....what are these knowledgable people basing their opinion on?

 

Genetic make up...knowing the dogs in each line and what they bring(or do not) to the breeding match, try to balance out the traits that are complimentary to that match.
It does really go back to the genetics.

 

I might be way off (my IPO experience is limited to my area) but it strikes me that dogs that have "reactive aggression" or are reactive out of frustration could (and do) quite well in IPO.

A while back I had a helper ask me about a dog who's handler was interested in checking out the club whether or not the dog was reactive, I said yes and he said "that's good." So don't really think that reactive dogs (not so much nerve bag reactive dogs) are that uncommon in the sport.

ETA: dogs that are nervy reactive from what I have seen definitely do not do well in the sport and in training I really do think that IPO exposes nerve issues. I don't mean to bash the sport, I do respect it as a sport and know that there are a lot of great dogs and handlers out there competing.

 

I might be way off (my IPO experience is limited to my area) but it strikes me that dogs that have "reactive aggression" or are reactive out of frustration could (and do) quite well in IPO.

Its funny that you write this, because I think mine would do very well in the sport.

 

I wonder how many of these dogs that are labelled 'reactive' are simply bored, and making up their own fun? My puppy could be called reactive - but give him something to do and he's a totally different dog.

 

I think we're talking about different things. My dog is most dog-reactive while we're doing something. I think she just gets WAY too pumped up about it and her brain switches off. Right now I have to work her alone. Even what you would think was a calmer activity like nosework, she goes bananas (she could never be a bomb dog lol) about

I really wish I could find a good trainer withing an hour of me to help me work specifically on this issue with her, because she's so keen to work, she's almost spoiling her own fun at this point. I have the name of one guy who's closer to 2 hours away, but that makes for a pretty long day and I have responsibilities at home too. I might try to figure out a way to do it though, even though it's a really long drive.

I think she's a great dog, with a good deal of potential, I just have to figure out a way of letting her realize it, but this is where I'm stuck.

This is a really interesting discussion!

 

Merciel, that is good to hear! I am going through this with my young dog, I hate bringing him up because I think he is an extreme example of the breed, throw in some crazy side effects from medication and an very painful spinal condition and I have a bit of a train wreck on my hands! I am working really hard on CALMNESS, impulse control and NILIF. He has had a big life style change recently and I am so hopeful that I can turn him into a calm dog. He is the definition of a "hot head" always has been since the day I brought him home. I have never met such an an angry dog lol.

 

Merciel, that is good to hear! I am going through this with my young dog, I hate bringing him up because I think he is an extreme example of the breed, throw in some crazy side effects from medication and an very painful spinal condition and I have a bit of a train wreck on my hands! I am working really hard on CALMNESS, impulse control and NILIF. He has had a big life style change recently and I am so hopeful that I can turn him into a calm dog. He is the definition of a "hot head" always has been since the day I brought him home. I have never met such an an angry dog lol.

And I would ask, what is your dogs pedigree, KristiM?
Because YES, the dogs in his background do play into his whole being. They are who they are...we can only do so much in the shaping.

 

Oh, I never got that one to be a calm dog. No no. I just got her to quit attacking innocent children on the street.

This was the foster dog in question...

...and that's about as calm as she ever got. She was a small and hilarious dog, as you can see from the video, and I honestly think that is the only reason she ever made it to the adoption floor or out of the shelter alive.

She was solid muscle though. Once at Thanksgiving, while we were staying at the in-laws', she hurled herself against the basement door repeatedly and slammed it open even though my MIL had stacked not one but TWO chairs against the outside of the door to hold it shut.

Then she tore upstairs and attacked my MIL like her horrible little namesake monster. No harm done, but it made for one enduring holiday memory. To this day my MIL retells that story every year.

I spent a fair amount of time wanting to throw that dog out a window. I genuinely believe she put me through one of the hardest tests of my commitment to not using force in training. Sometimes I would very gently put my hands around her little neck and, in the sweetest possible tone of voice, act out Homer Simpson throttling Bart.

But we got through it and she ended up living happily ever after in an awesome home and then they did this to her:

which frankly is worse (and more hilarious) than any punishment I could ever have devised.

So hey, it all worked out in the end. But no, I never got her calm. Just controlled.

/threadjack

 

LOL! what doesn't kill ya makes you stronger...and all that jazz. She never knew what was coming, did she?!

 

My Male isn't reactive at all. Female you might call reactive... It's only with non-submissive bitches, so it's more just dominance behavior

 

This has been a extremely interesting thread...excellent points brought up and it's really made me think.

 

There are different types and causes of reactivity. Some is genetic; nerve; threshold and some is training.

My goal with Benny is to turn reactiveness into clear headed responsiveness. As he has matured he has learned self control because I have demanded it of him.

Most of Benny's reactiveness is rooted in excitement. He sees us headed to his favorite park and is head is out the window, excitedly barking. It's as if he gets an adrenaline rush that neutralizes his:crazy: brain. I have largely overcome this by training him that he does not get what he wants until he is calm and clear headed.

Some of his reactivity will be aggression toward large dogs who are approaching him aggressively. This is managed by focus work; not letting him look at the other dog) and sometimes creating distance.

I like that Benny is very responsive and think a GSD should be responsive which is like clear headed thought out reactivity.

Even at rest Benny is ready for action. He sleeps by the door and occasionally if he hears a strange sound will want to be let out to check the house. My adult son works varying hour and when he comes home in the middle of the night has learned to call out to Benny so he knows it is him. ( Benny once heard the front door open at 2 am and ran down the hall with a loud bark to take on the intruder only to call off at the last second when he saw it was Joey.:laugh:

You will never see Benny sprawled upside down on the couch like DH's Borzoi because he chooses places and positions that make it easier to respond. He still reacts and runs to the door when a doorbell rings on TV, while the Borzoi yawns on the couch.

 

With reactivity being such an undesirable trait and such a common complaint, it's too bad it isn't better understood.
-There are well bred dogs that aren't reactive even with poor training/socialization.
-There are well bred dogs that become reactive due to lack of proper training.
-There are badly bred dogs that will become less reactive with good training.
-There are badly bred dogs that don't get much better even with great training.
-And most commonly you have average bred dogs with average training that fall somewhere in between.

Then there are the dogs regardless of genetic type that suffer severe abuse (which itself is a form of behavior modification) at some point in their life that makes them reactive. Every person has a breaking point, and so do dogs.

So as dog people I say don't be overly optimistic or overly deterministic about what is possible to achieve with an individual dog. Don't pick one tool and think it will fix every dog problem on every dog forum. Its try the best with everything you've got and hope the dog can find its way thru.

It's been cautioned before but sometimes we think we are fixing reactivity problems with our simple little one-size-fits-all tricks but all we are doing is suppressing the external signs of it. Then you get a dog that remains calm and silent right up to the moment he "unexpectedly" bites a person or another dog.

Also, I think it should be faced that traits that make an excellent large guarding breed dog or sport dog are behaviors that our suburbanized, mix & mingle culture have labeled as dangerous and undesirable.

 

So as dog people I say don't be overly optimistic or overly deterministic about what is possible to achieve with an individual dog. Don't pick one tool and think it will fix every dog problem on every dog forum. Its try the best with everything you've got and hope the dog can find its way thru.

It's been cautioned before but sometimes we think we are fixing reactivity problems with our simple little one-size-fits-all tricks but all we are doing is suppressing the external signs of it. Then you get a dog that remains calm and silent right up to the moment he "unexpectedly" bites a person or another dog.

Also, I think it should be faced that traits that make an excellent large guarding breed dog or sport dog are behaviors that our suburbanized, mix & mingle culture have labeled as dangerous and undesirable.

I can personally say that I'm using every tool and trick I can. I have found that a prong and e collar causes him anxiety, so those are now off the table. An easy walk harness didn't really do much, it helped, but not like I expected it to. Positive training works well for some stuff and other stuff a more firmer approach works better. We are now mixing up positive with mild to stern voice corrections with the gentle leader. There is no way just one of those will work. The only reason I want him not to be reactive to other dogs is because I want him in an obedience class. I don't feel I would have a problem bringing a dog into the home later on, because he likes dogs, just not dogs on a leash. Even then I have never tested out what he would do if he was allowed to approach a dog that he has been barking at. My gut is telling me that he would be fine, probably not correctly meeting the other dog, but not vicious. The fear in me because I love him and don't want to lose him over something stupid puts my gut in place.

 

I don't feel I would have a problem bringing a dog into the home later on, because he likes dogs, just not dogs on a leash. Even then I have never tested out what he would do if he was allowed to approach a dog that he has been barking at. My gut is telling me that he would be fine, probably not correctly meeting the other dog, but not vicious.

Is there a stable, sound neutral dog you can have him interact with to test it? I've found dogs that throw calming signals yet show control and aloof behavior will settle down a dog that is on the reactive side. And remember, dogs feel our emotions down that leash much more than we imagine.

 

I can't find anyone that will volunteer I can't blame them, he sounds vicious. It is definitely the leash thing. I can go to Petsmart and walk past there pet motel and he doesn't react at all. He cries and wags his tail, but none of them are on a leash. We watched a obedience class through the glass, he reacted, they were all on the leash. He has reacted to my other dogs in the house when they were on a leash. I have practiced with all three of my dogs...the female GSD first, he reacted like he was going to kill her, I waited until he calmed down, then allowed him to approach her, of course he went right for her face. Then I tried the golden, he reacted less, but still went for the face then the butt to greet him. Finally I tried with my oldest, he hardly reacted at all and when allowed to meet he went for her butt and he was praised and rewarded heavily. Our thinking at the time is that my oldest really is the alpha and demands respect(she gets it from all dogs to) and maybe he could sense that? My son compared him to a shining star that thinks his poop don't stink. I guess I can practice with my own dogs, but I don't know how that will play out in the real world. I know that if I'm feeling completely confident then we have no issues. We have been able to walk past several dogs with no issue. One of the dogs I seen, took a deep breath and said, he won't react, he won't react, and he didn't, even when the owner said a few words to me. The other one was a golden that came around the corner and barked in his face, he didn't do anything but look at that dog like it was crazy...definitely weird. The trainers are hoping that the gentle leader will help with him not feeling what I'm feeling.

 

I can only speak from personal experience in what I've raised, but I believe genetics is a much stronger factor than training.

Multiple classes, trainers, and socialization could not help my first GSD's reactiveness and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING outside our home was perceived as a threat. Walks were always completely on edge with uneasiness, and we walked the same route everyday twice a day from 8 weeks to more than a year old. We, together, eventually learned to manage and deal with her fears.

My 2nd GSD had health issues that limited his socialization. To this day he is ROCK SOLID. When he was 5 months old, we sat in the backyard and out of nowhere, the loudest crack of thunder hit. I jumped so bad I almost fell out of my lawn chair. My female nearly broke her neck bolting inside the house. His reaction? A simple head tilt as if to say, "Now, what was that?" He never even moved from the spot he was laying in.

He is clear headed enough for a small child to grab his ears and plant a huge kiss on his nose. At the same time, a perceived threat had best beware. I can take him anywhere and he is 100% confident. I did not train this into him. THIS is genetics.

 

Also, while it's not completely on topic, since a couple of people in this thread have mentioned having fearful/reactive performance dogs, this link might be of some interest:

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH110: Dealing with the Bogeyman - Helping Fearful and Reactive Competition Dogs

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy is offering a course on "Helping Fearful and Reactive Competition Dogs" starting on August 1. I'm debating whether I want to sign up for a working spot with Pongu. On the one hand, I feel like I've got a handle on our competition problems, and there's really not much more for us to do besides continue to practice.

On the other hand, the class is sort of tailor made for us, and there might be lots of new ideas that could help us develop faster. So... I'm torn. Still got some time to decide.

But anyway I'll put the link out there for anyone else who might find it of possible use.

 

If he responded to the fake JRT like a real dog, then using a realistic-looking fake dog might be a useful option to pursue. It doesn't matter if he figures out that it's a fake up close; for good threshold work, you aren't going to get close until he's able to completely relax and focus at a distance. Once you've got that relaxed focus almost completely reliable at, say, 30-40 feet, you can creep in to 25, then 20, but I wouldn't expect that to happen for at least a couple of weeks and potentially longer.

If you can get a completely safe relaxed response at a distance (and I mean COMPLETELY safe and relaxed), then you can start bringing real dogs back into the equation. But in the meantime, and especially if you're having difficulty controlling your own automatic responses to anticipation of trouble, it might be worth drilling with a dummy at first.

Honestly, if you can't figure out what's driving his behavior, leave it as a black box mystery and just focus on addressing the symptoms. Jean Donaldson is fond of saying that training should be less concerned with the why of behaviors than the what, since the externally observable "what" is the thing that guides the training protocols.

I don't wholeheartedly subscribe to that point of view (IMO the "why" often helps determine how you address a particular issue and can hint at what approaches are likely to work or backfire before you find out via trial and error), but I do find it a useful reminder sometimes that it's okay if we don't know why the dog is doing something. Sometimes the dogs don't know themselves! I occasionally see dogs who throw off all kinds of conflicting, chaotic signals reflecting (I would guess) a state of inner ambivalence and confusion. Sometimes I think they don't know what they want themselves, and it can make reactivity worse because they're so full of internal conflict.

Knowing "why" is useful but you don't have to get too hung up diagnosing that. You can still take effective steps to address the problem without knowing the root cause, at least if you're careful about reading the dog and tailoring your responses to his.

Maybe it'll work for you, maybe not. Might be worth trying, though.

 

Where can I get a good fake looking dog? The first pet I won't have to feed I think that you are getting at what my trainers goal is. Its for them to decided on the best choice when they are being conflicted, no matter what the conflict is. Very big on letting them think for themselves and I can see that being the goal.

 

Too bad Karlo isn't closer! He is so neutral to other dogs and seems to send out the vibes/ reactive dogs just stop their fussing when they focus on him. But I think I'd try to find a neutral female(opposite sex) and not an intact male to desensitize him.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenV
With reactivity being such an undesirable trait and such a common complaint, it's too bad it isn't better understood.
-There are well bred dogs that aren't reactive even with poor training/socialization.
-There are well bred dogs that become reactive due to lack of proper training.
-There are badly bred dogs that will become less reactive with good training.
-There are badly bred dogs that don't get much better even with great training.
-And most commonly you have average bred dogs with average training that fall somewhere in between.

Then there are the dogs regardless of genetic type that suffer severe abuse (which itself is a form of behavior modification) at some point in their life that makes them reactive. Every person has a breaking point, and so do dogs.

So as dog people I say don't be overly optimistic or overly deterministic about what is possible to achieve with an individual dog. Don't pick one tool and think it will fix every dog problem on every dog forum. Its try the best with everything you've got and hope the dog can find its way thru.

It's been cautioned before but sometimes we think we are fixing reactivity problems with our simple little one-size-fits-all tricks but all we are doing is suppressing the external signs of it. Then you get a dog that remains calm and silent right up to the moment he "unexpectedly" bites a person or another dog.

Also, I think it should be faced that traits that make an excellent large guarding breed dog or sport dog are behaviors that our suburbanized, mix & mingle culture have labeled as dangerous and undesirable.


This is about one of the best and clearest posts I have ever read on the subject. It should be laminated onto a card and handed out to every new dog owner.


^^ I agree 100%!!

 

Thank you. That is helpful! In the case of our Glory, she came to us with many scars and signs of abuse and just hours away from being euthanized. She cowers when my husband reaches up to get something out of the cupboard, and is very fearful of hoses and water. I hadn't put together the reactivity and behavior modification from abuse.

Have you found anything that helps these poor dogs overcome their trauma? Glory has landed in a loving home, and we're hopeful that with time she can heal.

 

Closeing thread. As stated, this one is over 10yrs old. I created your own thread for you @Sage Woman