I found a wonderful breeder whom I spoke to at length, but I noticed her female is listed as a DM carrier. I'm thinking that this may not be right for me. Any thoughts?thanks
mlw987m
Why? Is the sire a carrier as well? If not, and the test is actually accurate (which I have my doubts on the accuracy of the DM tests since you can get different results from different companies), then it's not an issue.
There is a difference between being a carrier and actually developing DM. Talk to this breeder. They can explain it all.
I think you should PM Carmen, or one of the other breeders for an opinion. I have no scientific knowledge. Just going from my gut, I would be concerned. If I had a choice between breeding stock who were DM carriers, or not, I would choose not. If I was purchasing a puppy, I would want to know that neither parent carried DM. I lost my previous GSD to DM. DM is horrible.
I guess I would want to know what is so awesome about this bitch, that she would be considered, even though she is a DM carrier. Or - maybe I am all wet and it is no big deal. It will be interesting to see what smarter people have to say about this.
I guess I would want to know what is so awesome about this bitch, that she would be considered, even though she is a DM carrier. Or - maybe I am all wet and it is no big deal. It will be interesting to see what smarter people have to say about this.
Here is an article that may give you more insight as to causes and risks.
Kerschberger German Shepherds Degenerative Myelopathy Health Information for ALL Dogs
Kerschberger German Shepherds Degenerative Myelopathy Health Information for ALL Dogs
For years and years and years - we had no way to know if a dog was going to have DM - now we have at least a clue!!!! I have tested a couple generations now.....my females are all clear, and so far, the progeny tested have been clear...even though three males I have used have been carriers.....my nearly 13 year old was clear and her progeny were mostly clear with one male carrier....
Is it perfect?????????? NO - not yet.....but it is still better than nothing......responsible breeders use the test to attempt to keep from producing it....no one said it was perfect - I have absolutely NO PROBLEM using a carrier with my clear females if I like everything else about him! My K - L -M litters were all from clear females and carrier males....I hope more of the pups get tested so that we keep building up that database...
If we throw out every dog who is a carrier we would so drastically reduce the gene pool that there would be new problems from too much backmassing and linebreeding...
Lee
Is it perfect?????????? NO - not yet.....but it is still better than nothing......responsible breeders use the test to attempt to keep from producing it....no one said it was perfect - I have absolutely NO PROBLEM using a carrier with my clear females if I like everything else about him! My K - L -M litters were all from clear females and carrier males....I hope more of the pups get tested so that we keep building up that database...
If we throw out every dog who is a carrier we would so drastically reduce the gene pool that there would be new problems from too much backmassing and linebreeding...
Lee
Sounds as if it's not desirable to breed carrier dogs but to eliminate them from breeding would in the long run restrict the GSD gene pool too much.
This is a case of allowing one defect and taking the risk to prevent other problems down the road? It may be, that the person looking for a GSD for themselves and is not a breeder may have some legitimate concerns. What are the breeders doing with the pups that carry 2 copies of the gene where the risk is increased? Are they disclosing anything in their contracts?
This is a case of allowing one defect and taking the risk to prevent other problems down the road? It may be, that the person looking for a GSD for themselves and is not a breeder may have some legitimate concerns. What are the breeders doing with the pups that carry 2 copies of the gene where the risk is increased? Are they disclosing anything in their contracts?
There are two parts to the DM gene. As Lee said, carrier just means the dog carries one part of the two parts that make up the gene. If the dog carried both parts it wouldn't be a carrier, it would have DM. Big difference. My female is a carrier. I will breed her to a clear male. Plain and simple. Her mother is a carrier and was bred to clear males. The worst she has ever produced was carriers.
It seems like this would be a very important test to have done and a huge red flag if people test for hips and not DM. I had no idea the numbers were so high for any of the ratings.
If someone purchased from a breeder and DM testing was not done in the sire or dam, with the high numbers and acceptance of positive testers in the breeding community - it sounds very dangerous.
I am thinking if it is a common practice to use DM+ dogs, it should be disclosed (as the breeder has done with the OP) and it's absolutely necessary people know and understand never to breed that dog to an untested or positive tested dog.
I see so many ads for GSD pups that say hips and elbows tested but seldom DM. How many JQP know that this is an accepted practice?
If someone purchased from a breeder and DM testing was not done in the sire or dam, with the high numbers and acceptance of positive testers in the breeding community - it sounds very dangerous.
I am thinking if it is a common practice to use DM+ dogs, it should be disclosed (as the breeder has done with the OP) and it's absolutely necessary people know and understand never to breed that dog to an untested or positive tested dog.
I see so many ads for GSD pups that say hips and elbows tested but seldom DM. How many JQP know that this is an accepted practice?
I found this a bit interesting:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Policies
And this:
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=GS
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Policies
And this:
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=GS
My male is a carrier(both of them are) and I was really disappointed to not do a breeding because both the stud and bitch that was chosen are carriers. I would still love a puppy from that breeding, but no way would it be responsible to breed knowing both tested as carrier.
That said, he has been used as stud with a clear bitch. As long as breeders are doing this(controversial test) at least there is some knowledge about who is or isn't a carrier. In my dogs mother lines there have been NO cases of DM in any dogs that are well over the age that it starts showing up. Longevity and healthy dogs are a given with the Mother Line( http://www.wildhauskennels.com/ira.htm ) . They live to 12-13 which for a GSD is the norm.
That said, he has been used as stud with a clear bitch. As long as breeders are doing this(controversial test) at least there is some knowledge about who is or isn't a carrier. In my dogs mother lines there have been NO cases of DM in any dogs that are well over the age that it starts showing up. Longevity and healthy dogs are a given with the Mother Line( http://www.wildhauskennels.com/ira.htm ) . They live to 12-13 which for a GSD is the norm.
in order for statistics to have any validity there has to be a diagnosis which verifies the presence of a condition and with DM that means a post mortem , autopsy.
other than that the diagnosis is PRESUMED .
heard someone state that their GSD which passed away at just over 15 years of age had DM .
do you think that possibly the dog ran up against the inevitable , may have
had age-related arthritis
there are forum members with young dogs with horrible , life impacting soft pasterns and ligaments ,
barely mobile .
take that seriously
even if breeding two A / A animals there is RISK , not guaranteed .
A/A to 0/0 == next generation carrier A/0 to 0/0 - choose the best and continue. Eventually eliminate the problem without throwing baby out with bath water .
the understanding of disease genetics is changing -- epigenetics -- outside influences -- signals which are allowed to turn on , or are kept in an off position.
not so simple anymore -
on top of that there are genetic deletion snips which can eliminate undesirable genetic material
this can't be done for hip dysplasia which is complex and does not have a single gene in action -- multifactorial,
and environment especially in formative youth , and exercise and nutrition
breeding is art and science .
I have yet to see or hear of a great dog produced by a geneticist.
as to my own dogs , they have been tested --
http://www.fredlanting.org/2010/02/the-new-knowledge-of-dm-“gsd-myelopathy”/
other than that the diagnosis is PRESUMED .
heard someone state that their GSD which passed away at just over 15 years of age had DM .
do you think that possibly the dog ran up against the inevitable , may have
had age-related arthritis
there are forum members with young dogs with horrible , life impacting soft pasterns and ligaments ,
barely mobile .
take that seriously
even if breeding two A / A animals there is RISK , not guaranteed .
A/A to 0/0 == next generation carrier A/0 to 0/0 - choose the best and continue. Eventually eliminate the problem without throwing baby out with bath water .
the understanding of disease genetics is changing -- epigenetics -- outside influences -- signals which are allowed to turn on , or are kept in an off position.
not so simple anymore -
on top of that there are genetic deletion snips which can eliminate undesirable genetic material
this can't be done for hip dysplasia which is complex and does not have a single gene in action -- multifactorial,
and environment especially in formative youth , and exercise and nutrition
breeding is art and science .
I have yet to see or hear of a great dog produced by a geneticist.
as to my own dogs , they have been tested --
http://www.fredlanting.org/2010/02/the-new-knowledge-of-dm-“gsd-myelopathy”/
To me, this is just another example of how so many of the problems in the breed got perpetuated. From what we've heard and are able to track back to; some known bad lines were imported because "the money was there". These, earned but the very breeders in Germany knew they had defects.
It is known - that breeding dogs with the utmost care and available knowledge in genetics that very knowledgable breeders can keep something like this under control "within their echelon". It is also known, that this adherence to standards does not trickle down.
If you want to acknowledge where these severe problems originated and are kept in the gene pool came from - it is from top down and I don't see how that is justified knowing what is going to happen.
90% of the ads I see by "acknowledged reputable breeders" are not testing for DM. It's still listed as "optional" on many health sites and registries. I just don't understand the thinking. If the best interest of the breed was at consideration - the repetition of breeding these + dogs would not be considered as generation after generation is inheriting the trait and most of those pups and parents are not tested.
This, along with the environmental factor contributing to so many problems not seen before and the willingness to still breed them is astonishing to me. If you consider the betterment of the breed to get clean healthy dogs from the top down - eventually there should be a reversal - not with known problems like this being passed because "it's only ok for specific breedings - checked dogs" when you know that's not going to happen in the larger populations.
It is known - that breeding dogs with the utmost care and available knowledge in genetics that very knowledgable breeders can keep something like this under control "within their echelon". It is also known, that this adherence to standards does not trickle down.
If you want to acknowledge where these severe problems originated and are kept in the gene pool came from - it is from top down and I don't see how that is justified knowing what is going to happen.
90% of the ads I see by "acknowledged reputable breeders" are not testing for DM. It's still listed as "optional" on many health sites and registries. I just don't understand the thinking. If the best interest of the breed was at consideration - the repetition of breeding these + dogs would not be considered as generation after generation is inheriting the trait and most of those pups and parents are not tested.
This, along with the environmental factor contributing to so many problems not seen before and the willingness to still breed them is astonishing to me. If you consider the betterment of the breed to get clean healthy dogs from the top down - eventually there should be a reversal - not with known problems like this being passed because "it's only ok for specific breedings - checked dogs" when you know that's not going to happen in the larger populations.
perspective Degenerative Myelopathy - Using the DNA test
excerpt from above link
" For breeds with a high frequency of the DM mutation, it will take wise use of the test and several generations to maintian a healthy and diverse gene pool while reducing the prevalence of DM. It is important for breeders and owners to keep in mind all the traits present in an individual dog, and not to simply breed a test result. We encourage breeders to DNA test potential breeding stock and consider the results of the DM test as part of their evaluation and decision-making process."
outside influences , your management , basic good idea no matter what
copy from same link
" Factors that may influence the age of onset of symptoms are the topic of current research - at this time we cannot predict which of the genetically at risk dogs will have an early appearance of clinical signs, and which will have a delayed onset."
Diet -- inflammation is a key initiating factor in many degenerative diseases, including joint issues and the nervous system.
Degenerative Myelopathy is suspected to have an auto-immune connection.
When the digestive system is flawed , several problems including allergies, sensitivities, IBS, and more serious
inflammation driven ailments happen.
DM is the immune system turning on itself .
Even if the dog has a chance of DM you can suppress the disease process .
Put these dietary aides to use ---- antioxidants , fish oil EPA/DHA , phosphatidylcholine sourced from egg YOLKS, sunflower seed lecithin, liver* -- full 8 compound vitamin E , http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/1259...expression-analysis-of-alpha-tocopherol-transfer-protein-mRNA-in-German-shephep
quick quote from above link "However, there are indications that vitamin E deficiency may be involved in the pathogenesis of DM. Therefore, we analyzed the expression and the nucleotide sequence of the canine alpha-tocopherol transfer protein (alpha Ttp) of German shepherd dogs with DM in order to determine whether a deficiency or a defect of the alpha Ttp could be a primary factor in the pathogenesis of DM"
* more on liver --- one of those offal foods that have fallen out of disfavour in our own diets .
Liver is a great source of Vitamin B 12 . Neuropathy and a deficiency of this vitamin do have a proven link.
somewhere in the forum archives there should be some of my posts covering nutrition and DM
later--
excerpt from above link
" For breeds with a high frequency of the DM mutation, it will take wise use of the test and several generations to maintian a healthy and diverse gene pool while reducing the prevalence of DM. It is important for breeders and owners to keep in mind all the traits present in an individual dog, and not to simply breed a test result. We encourage breeders to DNA test potential breeding stock and consider the results of the DM test as part of their evaluation and decision-making process."
outside influences , your management , basic good idea no matter what
copy from same link
" Factors that may influence the age of onset of symptoms are the topic of current research - at this time we cannot predict which of the genetically at risk dogs will have an early appearance of clinical signs, and which will have a delayed onset."
Diet -- inflammation is a key initiating factor in many degenerative diseases, including joint issues and the nervous system.
Degenerative Myelopathy is suspected to have an auto-immune connection.
When the digestive system is flawed , several problems including allergies, sensitivities, IBS, and more serious
inflammation driven ailments happen.
DM is the immune system turning on itself .
Even if the dog has a chance of DM you can suppress the disease process .
Put these dietary aides to use ---- antioxidants , fish oil EPA/DHA , phosphatidylcholine sourced from egg YOLKS, sunflower seed lecithin, liver* -- full 8 compound vitamin E , http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/1259...expression-analysis-of-alpha-tocopherol-transfer-protein-mRNA-in-German-shephep
quick quote from above link "However, there are indications that vitamin E deficiency may be involved in the pathogenesis of DM. Therefore, we analyzed the expression and the nucleotide sequence of the canine alpha-tocopherol transfer protein (alpha Ttp) of German shepherd dogs with DM in order to determine whether a deficiency or a defect of the alpha Ttp could be a primary factor in the pathogenesis of DM"
* more on liver --- one of those offal foods that have fallen out of disfavour in our own diets .
Liver is a great source of Vitamin B 12 . Neuropathy and a deficiency of this vitamin do have a proven link.
somewhere in the forum archives there should be some of my posts covering nutrition and DM
later--
I just want to say from what I have gathered from the breeders commenting on this thread, hats off to the lot of you. It is not an easy task that you are faced with and there are a lot of unknowns and nature can be fickle.
While others are derisive of all that you do, your time, diligence, and passion as stewards of this breed is well appreciated by those who enjoy and appreciate the fruits of your efforts.
Thank you for breeding for the whole package, the total German Shepherd, with emphasis on correct temperament while balancing other factors.
I have had two German Shepherds with genetic issues, HD. The first was a stray we took in that was later given to us when we found the owner, and one could not have asked for a better German Shepherd. Despite his hips, his temperament was exemplary. The other GSD was from a breeder that placed a strong emphasis on health at the cost of other traits. I don't blame the breeder for that dog still having HD despite the best of their efforts, but I will blame for not breeding with other important traits in mind, such as temperament. The dog with the correct temperament and poor health was still a joy to live with while the dog with bad temperament and poor health was a struggle.
While others are derisive of all that you do, your time, diligence, and passion as stewards of this breed is well appreciated by those who enjoy and appreciate the fruits of your efforts.
Thank you for breeding for the whole package, the total German Shepherd, with emphasis on correct temperament while balancing other factors.
I have had two German Shepherds with genetic issues, HD. The first was a stray we took in that was later given to us when we found the owner, and one could not have asked for a better German Shepherd. Despite his hips, his temperament was exemplary. The other GSD was from a breeder that placed a strong emphasis on health at the cost of other traits. I don't blame the breeder for that dog still having HD despite the best of their efforts, but I will blame for not breeding with other important traits in mind, such as temperament. The dog with the correct temperament and poor health was still a joy to live with while the dog with bad temperament and poor health was a struggle.
I am wondering why you would be considering a pup from a breeder you don't trust. Because that is what this boils down to.
Most breeders have dogs that are carriers, some even have dogs that are at risk. It's HOW they use them that is important. We can't just run around throwing away good genes.
I lost the love of my life to DM, so I am pretty twitchy about it. When I thought I could get a pup and reached out to breeders I was very clear about my need to never go through that again. None had an issue with that. It simply excludes me from future breedings that may produce at risk pups. All understood my position. And understand that as others have pointed out even at risk dogs may never become symptomatic. DM is late onset and the bottom line is that some dogs don't live long enough for the disease to show it's face, or something else takes them down first. No reputable breeder is going to sell someone an at risk dog without full disclosure.
Most breeders have dogs that are carriers, some even have dogs that are at risk. It's HOW they use them that is important. We can't just run around throwing away good genes.
I lost the love of my life to DM, so I am pretty twitchy about it. When I thought I could get a pup and reached out to breeders I was very clear about my need to never go through that again. None had an issue with that. It simply excludes me from future breedings that may produce at risk pups. All understood my position. And understand that as others have pointed out even at risk dogs may never become symptomatic. DM is late onset and the bottom line is that some dogs don't live long enough for the disease to show it's face, or something else takes them down first. No reputable breeder is going to sell someone an at risk dog without full disclosure.
DM ... yeah sadly many "Boxers" are well acquainted with it! I was quite surprised to discover it could be an issue with GSD's also?? 
But with "Boxers" AFAIK ... there is only one "Breeder" of Boxers that has "DM" clear breeding pairs?? And I asked her about the "one clear and one carrier" thing and why do that??? And she said "if the DM carriers where were eliminated from the "Boxer" gene pool ..."70" percent of all Breeding pairs would be "gone" her dogs tend to be from Europe.
But for an understanding of the "Carrier and at Risk" with "DM" here you go:
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY - Gentry Boxers
But with "Boxers" AFAIK ... there is only one "Breeder" of Boxers that has "DM" clear breeding pairs?? And I asked her about the "one clear and one carrier" thing and why do that??? And she said "if the DM carriers where were eliminated from the "Boxer" gene pool ..."70" percent of all Breeding pairs would be "gone" her dogs tend to be from Europe.
But for an understanding of the "Carrier and at Risk" with "DM" here you go:
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY - Gentry Boxers
I need to explain my comments too. I am not down on breeders but I don't see where all the blame can be placed at the lower levels. I also do not see how even the best breeders can deal with today's problems in the breed with the lesser testing options offered. If, what is known about this breed and the universities and top geneticists could be turned lose to focus their most current knowledge, brilliant minds and latest tech equipment on the problems, then I could see hope and a possibly very bright future for the breed.
As I have stated many times, in every post questioning top down - I don't understand how they can expect to deal with these problems when such meager resources are available. This is so frustrating because the knowledge and technology is probably out there but years away because of course, humans are the focus.
I would like to read just one post here, that talks about the problems and intentional breedings with dogs such as DM+ dogs and why it is done rather than just result to blame at the bottom uninformed level. These are higher level topics and IMO need to be talked about rather than just beating the old scapegoat "bottom" again.
I would really like to hear from someone that looks at the whole picture and future of the breed. Lets all agree that minor problems can and probably become major problems at the "bottom" but, what about the middle and upper that are trying? What are they doing above and beyond the hip and elbow tests? If they do test for DM in their breeding selections - do they test the puppies and disclose? Do they disclose when a dog or pup they raised is carrying both genes? Why is this testing still considered optional?
I don't know what the "bottom" does - the "bottom does as it always do, and it will always be here... I want to know what the "middle" and "top" does - because that is the only future to look forward to..... and if something doesn't seem right - an explanation would be appreciated.....
As I have stated many times, in every post questioning top down - I don't understand how they can expect to deal with these problems when such meager resources are available. This is so frustrating because the knowledge and technology is probably out there but years away because of course, humans are the focus.
I would like to read just one post here, that talks about the problems and intentional breedings with dogs such as DM+ dogs and why it is done rather than just result to blame at the bottom uninformed level. These are higher level topics and IMO need to be talked about rather than just beating the old scapegoat "bottom" again.
I would really like to hear from someone that looks at the whole picture and future of the breed. Lets all agree that minor problems can and probably become major problems at the "bottom" but, what about the middle and upper that are trying? What are they doing above and beyond the hip and elbow tests? If they do test for DM in their breeding selections - do they test the puppies and disclose? Do they disclose when a dog or pup they raised is carrying both genes? Why is this testing still considered optional?
I don't know what the "bottom" does - the "bottom does as it always do, and it will always be here... I want to know what the "middle" and "top" does - because that is the only future to look forward to..... and if something doesn't seem right - an explanation would be appreciated.....
Who is breeding DM+ dogs on the top? Can anybody name one breeder or is this pure speculation?
@wolfstraum Dang girl, you had me fooled. I always thought that you looked at the whole picture and the future of the breed.
@carmspak Same goes to you.
And to think I would not hesitate to seek these people out for their knowledge. Boy do I feel foolish now.
@wolfstraum Dang girl, you had me fooled. I always thought that you looked at the whole picture and the future of the breed.
@carmspak Same goes to you.
And to think I would not hesitate to seek these people out for their knowledge. Boy do I feel foolish now.
I would feel foolish too. None of the hard questions have been answered here, It's all questions and speculation by all, unless you are a top breeder - some will form their die hard shells and defend until the end, but none seems qualified to answer even the newby questions when a subject like this comes up. I understand now, that it's because they do not know because they are not living in the top current environment.
I'm sure it's because they aren't currently breeders and "at the top" but, there are questions without answers and it would be great if someone currently a top breeder could help us with these questions, someone qualified. Does anyone here know someone like that they may invite to come here and help answer some of these questions? Someone that is living/breathing living in the now of the "top" - not someone who does not have the direct current experience? That's all great but "more current affairs" would be more accurate to the questions asked for today's and future GSD owners.
I'm sure it's because they aren't currently breeders and "at the top" but, there are questions without answers and it would be great if someone currently a top breeder could help us with these questions, someone qualified. Does anyone here know someone like that they may invite to come here and help answer some of these questions? Someone that is living/breathing living in the now of the "top" - not someone who does not have the direct current experience? That's all great but "more current affairs" would be more accurate to the questions asked for today's and future GSD owners.
quote StoneyV
"I would really like to hear from someone that looks at the whole picture and future of the breed"
Okay. You heard . And there are certainly other breeders that I would put into this league sitting in the wings of this forum , conformation experts such as Linda Shaw , breeder- trainers who bemoan the disappearance of valuable traits, authors such as Willis , Lanting , who give a good genetic perspective of the breed through the years, many people I look up to and learn from with proven track records outside of the SV system.
"If, what is known about this breed and the universities and top geneticists could be turned lose to focus their most current knowledge, brilliant minds and latest tech equipment on the problems, then I could see hope and a possibly very bright future for the breed."
I have a dear friend that fits this description exactly. Super-top geneticist ! Contributor and participant in both the Human and Canine Genomic studies , the later released in 2003 or 2004 .
Would I trust him, want him to breed , and produce a good dog . Hahahahahaha , lol. No way.
This is a good site http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/resources/Canine-degenerative-myelopathy-NSDTRetPK.pdf
again , mention of nutrients to stall or halt onset , which seems to be set into motion by some pivotal trigger, trauma, deficiency in diet, inflammation .
Antioxidants anyone ?
I'd be interested in knowing if there are stats which record the sex of the confirmed DM afflicted dog.
Often DM is compared to human MS . Apparently in MS there are 3 or 4 times as many women suffering MS then there are males, suggesting a hormonal component .
Is this the case with our canines.
DM is the result of one mutated gene .
What is the big picture of the entire canine DM confirmed patient.
Is there a frequency of some other commonality , some condition of management (diet , stress , urban/rural living , exposure to toxins) . Some other reports on organic or other orthopedic health.
"I would really like to hear from someone that looks at the whole picture and future of the breed"
Okay. You heard . And there are certainly other breeders that I would put into this league sitting in the wings of this forum , conformation experts such as Linda Shaw , breeder- trainers who bemoan the disappearance of valuable traits, authors such as Willis , Lanting , who give a good genetic perspective of the breed through the years, many people I look up to and learn from with proven track records outside of the SV system.
"If, what is known about this breed and the universities and top geneticists could be turned lose to focus their most current knowledge, brilliant minds and latest tech equipment on the problems, then I could see hope and a possibly very bright future for the breed."
I have a dear friend that fits this description exactly. Super-top geneticist ! Contributor and participant in both the Human and Canine Genomic studies , the later released in 2003 or 2004 .
Would I trust him, want him to breed , and produce a good dog . Hahahahahaha , lol. No way.
This is a good site http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/resources/Canine-degenerative-myelopathy-NSDTRetPK.pdf
again , mention of nutrients to stall or halt onset , which seems to be set into motion by some pivotal trigger, trauma, deficiency in diet, inflammation .
Antioxidants anyone ?
I'd be interested in knowing if there are stats which record the sex of the confirmed DM afflicted dog.
Often DM is compared to human MS . Apparently in MS there are 3 or 4 times as many women suffering MS then there are males, suggesting a hormonal component .
Is this the case with our canines.
DM is the result of one mutated gene .
What is the big picture of the entire canine DM confirmed patient.
Is there a frequency of some other commonality , some condition of management (diet , stress , urban/rural living , exposure to toxins) . Some other reports on organic or other orthopedic health.
The hard questions have been answered. Some just choose not to hear it.
What constitutes breeders at the top?
What disqualifies breeders like Carmspak and Wolfstraum from being considered breeders at the top?
What constitutes breeders at the top?
What disqualifies breeders like Carmspak and Wolfstraum from being considered breeders at the top?
This is also the type of information I want to know. I will read your link tomorrow when my eyes don't feel so filled with sandpaper. I want to know. Just, I want to know - what's being done at the top all across the board to save this breed. I don't see anything in the very near future because of restrictions in funding and priorities - people come first. I CAN'T take the answers that this breed is not in imminent danger, everything is under control and it will all be ok. Where does anyone see that? This is the kind of question I would like to ask to your guy....
I am very happy to see the recent partnering and huge increase of funding because of the proven association with humans/dogs in the area of OCD/CCD genetic defects. Who can say that DM isn't also directly associated with many human conditions that the more simple study thru dogs might prove to be a win, win for both species?
It is a little more than coincidence, IMO that these things are coming to be - environmental may be so much a part of the problems that it's showing across species - it's that bad and still we don't get it.....
I am very happy to see the recent partnering and huge increase of funding because of the proven association with humans/dogs in the area of OCD/CCD genetic defects. Who can say that DM isn't also directly associated with many human conditions that the more simple study thru dogs might prove to be a win, win for both species?
It is a little more than coincidence, IMO that these things are coming to be - environmental may be so much a part of the problems that it's showing across species - it's that bad and still we don't get it.....
The fact that we do have these tests is a sign that the breed isn't in imminent danger. It's about using the knowledge at hand and buyers knowing what that knowledge actually means.
There is even reasoning behind why some top breeders don't do the test for DM. When it was first introduced, the results came back as clear, carrier, and DM positive. However, there were dogs that were diagnosed as clear or carrier who had DM-like symptoms before death and were diagnosed by a vet as having DM. Dogs that came back as positive that never showed a sign of having the disease. Naturally, this led to quite a bit of distrust among many breeders.
People worked with the researchers, had autopsies done on their dogs and waited for further developments. What was learned was that A) having 2 copies of the gene didn't mean that a dog would get DM, just that they were at risk for it, and B) that many of the dogs who were being diagnosed with DM actually had other problems that mimicked the symptoms of DM. It was also found that many of those similar diseases were often not being treated, allowing dogs that could have been saved to die. So, the wording of the results were changed - at risk instead of positive - and attempts are being made to spread the word about the different issues which may mimic DM.
Of course, the vet community isn't always a help with this. Vets are rarely up to date on all of the breed specific research unless they are either interested in that disease itself or are actively involved in that breed. Think of all the people who come here asking if their young puppy has HD because it bunny hops - many vets will say "yes" simply on the fact that GSDs are prone to HD. I'm on an all-breed group where a puppy buyer was encouraged to have surgery done on their dog to "prevent" developing arthritis and hip issues later in life. It would only be $300 extra if done at the time of neuter. Of course, that surgery needs to be done before the pup is 4 months old so he needs to be neutered ASAP. This pup has no sign of hip issues, a poorly focused and positioned radiograph, generations of HD-tested parents but the vet says it's for the best to have it done!
There is even reasoning behind why some top breeders don't do the test for DM. When it was first introduced, the results came back as clear, carrier, and DM positive. However, there were dogs that were diagnosed as clear or carrier who had DM-like symptoms before death and were diagnosed by a vet as having DM. Dogs that came back as positive that never showed a sign of having the disease. Naturally, this led to quite a bit of distrust among many breeders.
People worked with the researchers, had autopsies done on their dogs and waited for further developments. What was learned was that A) having 2 copies of the gene didn't mean that a dog would get DM, just that they were at risk for it, and B) that many of the dogs who were being diagnosed with DM actually had other problems that mimicked the symptoms of DM. It was also found that many of those similar diseases were often not being treated, allowing dogs that could have been saved to die. So, the wording of the results were changed - at risk instead of positive - and attempts are being made to spread the word about the different issues which may mimic DM.
Of course, the vet community isn't always a help with this. Vets are rarely up to date on all of the breed specific research unless they are either interested in that disease itself or are actively involved in that breed. Think of all the people who come here asking if their young puppy has HD because it bunny hops - many vets will say "yes" simply on the fact that GSDs are prone to HD. I'm on an all-breed group where a puppy buyer was encouraged to have surgery done on their dog to "prevent" developing arthritis and hip issues later in life. It would only be $300 extra if done at the time of neuter. Of course, that surgery needs to be done before the pup is 4 months old so he needs to be neutered ASAP. This pup has no sign of hip issues, a poorly focused and positioned radiograph, generations of HD-tested parents but the vet says it's for the best to have it done!
IF we were to eliminate all carriers and, even, at risk from the gene pool we would decrease the genetic diversity in this breed even more thus risking the emergence of more deleterious issues. A wise breeder uses these tests to help with their breeding decisions, but they know they can not be the sole reason for doing a breeding without causing damage to the breed as a whole.
Another issue is that there may be two forms of DM in the GSD since they have had clear dogs (tested twice by the UoM) that were confirmed to have DM upon necropsy (the ONLY way to diagnosis DM). Interestingly they have discovered the gene looked for in the DM test in Fox Terriers. A breed that has never had a confirmed case of DM. We need to use the test wisely, but knowing the background of our dogs is equally important to decrease the incidence of these awful health issues.
Another issue is that there may be two forms of DM in the GSD since they have had clear dogs (tested twice by the UoM) that were confirmed to have DM upon necropsy (the ONLY way to diagnosis DM). Interestingly they have discovered the gene looked for in the DM test in Fox Terriers. A breed that has never had a confirmed case of DM. We need to use the test wisely, but knowing the background of our dogs is equally important to decrease the incidence of these awful health issues.
Other than cancers, I am not sure we are seeing more cases of terrible health issues like DM. The WWW has just brought more people together to discuss these things thus making us more informed (well, not in all cases).
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