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Discussion starter · #21 ·
For both of us yes our impedance can change based on wet skin or salts in the skin from sweating or from drier compared wetter atmospheric conditions. For both of us it affects our heart by changing the rate of our heartbeat if we get enough of a current to shock us.

For instance out body can build up a large charge and then when close the circuit with a ground point we get the old static discharge we can use to shock our friends with. Which is fun to do:) However while that is large voltage to create that arc it is an incredibly small current so it it may tingle but not hurt us. It is actually current that kills us or a dog not the voltage.
So a current this low should not have any lasting effects on her? If she's feeling the stim at 0, I"m wondering if I need a collar with more levels for a finer adjustment for her. I think the higher end Dogtra's have more than 100.

I'm going to assume that the working level of 20 inside was based on how incredibly dry it is in our house in the winter. We can put 5 gallons of water in the air and my skin is still very dry. Outside, she was in the snow and running through mud to get her frisbee.
 
I don't know about lasting effect since it has been so long since I have done bio-engineering work to remember that part. You might want to get a multimeter from someone and measure for a known resistance how much voltage you get from the collar. This will tell you the amount of current and then research online what can be handled by dogs.
 
The difference in reaction is most likely due to tolerance and conditioning. Drive level will also be a factor, as most people using e-collars find that an increasing level is needed when dogs are excited to a higher state.

My 14mo female is much more reactive to stimuli then my 9yr old male. She is much softer when it comes to corrections and over dramatizes small events. I condition her to respond more neutrally to strange situations and help her to cope with stress. The 9yr old male is a retired police k9 and he has stronger nerves since birth and has been conditioned to handle high levels of stress and still perform. Most civilian dogs are not pushed to level of conditioning or training required for police or protection work. Just as Olympic athletes have a genetic/physical predisposition for greatness, they will have to train their bodies and control their impulses to reach greatness.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
I don't know about lasting effect since it has been so long since I have done bio-engineering work to remember that part. You might want to get a multimeter from someone and measure for a known resistance how much voltage you get from the collar. This will tell you the amount of current and then research online what can be handled by dogs.
Lucky for me that I work with electrical engineers. :) I'll shoot them an email and see if one has a multimeter. I'm actually wondering if my husband has one hidden in the basement! I thought I saw one around here once.
 
The waveform produced by the collars is not a simple dc or ac signal, and skin is not only a resistive load.

A multimeter will not be fast enough to catch the peak voltage and current that is generated. My background is electrical engineering and I work with high-voltage/high-frequency design. I do not currently have an e-collar for testing. Multimeters measure average current and voltage and are not effective for higher frequency measurement. I have and oscilloscope that is capable of displaying the voltage waveforms, but I do not have the current probes. It is possible to calculate the current at a single point in the waveform, but much harder to model the current in a complex load such as skin and tissue. The skin and tissue are not just a simple resistive circuit and they have inductive and capacitive properties as well. In the design of high-frequency fluorescent lighting, it is standard practice to incorporate a GFI (ground fault interrupter) circuit to protect users from fatal shock. In order to evaluate the waveforms to protect users from shock, complex measuring equipment is required. High frequency digital oscilloscopes with high impedance voltage and current probes are used.

The average current and voltage measured with the multimeter will be much lower than the instantaneous voltage current felt by the neural receptors of our shepherds.
 
The multimeter is useful for checking the average level differences between collar settings and determining if a particular collar is operating safely in comparison with another known working collar of the same design.
 
So a current this low should not have any lasting effects on her? If she's feeling the stim at 0, I"m wondering if I need a collar with more levels for a finer adjustment for her. I think the higher end Dogtra's have more than 100.

I'm going to assume that the working level of 20 inside was based on how incredibly dry it is in our house in the winter. We can put 5 gallons of water in the air and my skin is still very dry. Outside, she was in the snow and running through mud to get her frisbee.
Just wondering, which collar are you using?? I've had problems with Dogtra 200NCP Gold collars where it appears there's inconsistency in the stim at 20 or lower. As in.....dog feels nothing, raise it 1, nothing, raise it 1, no reaction, raise it one, YIKES!!!!! Lower it 1, STILL YIKES!!! I haven't had this problem with the more expensive Dogtra collars, only this low end one. I've talked to other trainers who experienced the same thing, so I no longer use that collar.
 
Do you know anyone with other collars? Maybe you can try out another one before buying it? I tried out a tritronics collar on the same dog and it didn't bother her at all, and I also used a better model Dogtra and she was fine. But that 200 collar made her crazy. Fortunately she didn't really need e-collar training, I was just using a collar on that dog while taking a 5 day course.

Tritronics and Dogtra have a different feel, one feels "spikier" than the other....has to do with what others here have mentioned, all that technical electrical engineering stuff that my dad (retired EE) has explained to me several times.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
I'll email my trainer and see what she has. I'm primarily "loading" the vibrate as a marker right now. It bothers me that she has such a reaction at level 0. To me that implies the stim at that level is to much but I can't go any lower!
 
I will say that when I've talked to people who sell the 200NCP collar, they all insist I'm imaging the stim inconsistency. But I've talked to several other end-users who have experienced the same thing! So I don't recommend that particular collar any more.
 
Without a doubt, there is something wrong with your 200NCP. At 0, there should be no stim. Do you know anyone with a 1900 or better? They come with a tester, which works like a light bulb. You connect it to the prongs and when you apply stim, the tester lights up, and gets progressively brighter as you raise stim levels. At 0, the tester should not light up at all.

As far as dogs and humans feeling levels is concerned, it's not rocket science, as some would lead you to believe. As someone already mentioned, every one and every dog has different tolerances, it's as simple as that. Some people simply feel it at lower levels than their dogs, and some feel it at higher levels than their dogs.

I use Dogtra collars exclusively, because their rheostat adjuster allows precise stim levels, and I don't like shocking dogs. With collars like PetSafe, Innotek, Tri-tronics, etc., there is no finite adjustment, and more often than not, one level is too low and the next level is too high. With collars like these, you most often can train with negative corrections only, because there is no in between. Even if you're lucky and your dog barely feels, say level 2, level 3 can easily be too high. Rather than risk shocking a dog, I use good Dogtra models only. And, every owner I've ever trained with one agrees.

Most dogs I've worked with have a sweet spot between 18 and 24 in low to medium distraction areas. I've found that most humans first start feeling it between 11 and 19 (interestingly, women tend not to feel it at the lower end, presumably since they are capable of having babies, and I keel over at the though of passing a kidney stone), although a good male friend feels 3! What a wuss! :)

Indoors and outdoors, is not a matter of environment (wet eather notwithstanding); it's more a matter of what the dog is doing. Typically, the level required indoors is lower due to lower distraction and the dog is more relaxed. With that said, when initially setting levels, I have experienced dogs falling asleep at levels up to 50, which is darned high. Presumably, this is because during this process you start low and work up slowly, and I suspect that because you can move up so gradually with the Dogtra line, their tolerance builds along with it, and it starts to feel good after awhile so they fall alseep. Similar to applying a TENS unit at physcial therapy. They gradually turn it up and finally set it at, let's say 20, on a human and you feel it, but after awhile you get densitized to it and they graudally turn it up and reset it it at, say, 30, and now I feel it again. I find myself falling asleep every time I've been on one. But, if they just set it at 20 without gradually turning it up to that level, it would definitely make my hair stand up!

But, the same dogs that fall asleep at 50 you can bet jump out of their skin if you use it at that level when you practice Heeling, for example. So, you have to be careful, and repeatedly test to find their base level before use, and be prepared to turn it down when you begin to use it.
 
How does that affect their heart? If we only feel it when it's strong enough to cross our hearts, is it doing damage to their hearts when used on a regular basis?

For all practical purposes the stim from an Ecollar flows from one contact point to the other. It goes nowhere near the dog's heart.
 
Modern electronic collars sold in the US shift intensity levels by altering pulse duration or repetition rate instead of increasing current or voltage (Lindsay 2005, p. 571).

· Lindsay, Steven (2005), The facts about modern electronic equipment, Blackwell, pp. 557–633.


Lindsay's generalization is incorrect. SOME Ecollars "shift intensity levels by altering pulse duration or repetition rate." SOME change current and SOME do both.
 
I don't know about lasting effect since it has been so long since I have done bio-engineering work to remember that part. You might want to get a multimeter from someone and measure for a known resistance how much voltage you get from the collar. This will tell you the amount of current and then research online what can be handled by dogs.

A multimeter is not going to be of much use when trying to measure the current an Ecollar puts out due to the pulsing nature of their electrical output. And there's more to how an Ecollar works than just voltage, amperage and resistance.
 
why...it's a Dogtra 200NCP Gold!

Looks like I need to find a new collar!


LOL. I was loath to go into this in detail because I thought it was offtopic. Now I realize that IT IS THE TOPIC. When this was first reported many people doubted it was happening. People thought that either the users were doing something wrong or that the collars were defective. Turns out that an EE (Electrical Engineer) Internet friend of mine put one of them on a test bench and discovered that there was a phenomenon that he called a "charging pulse" that fired an instant before the stim came. Some dogs, particularly those who were VERY sensitive to stim, could feel it and it was significantly higher than the lowest levels of stim that the Ecollar had. It's been so long that I've heard of this that I didn't recognize the symptoms as they were previously described.

There are two fixes. One is to send it to Dogtra (you'll have to pay shipping) and ask for "The Special Lou Castle Fix." (There's no charge [pun intended] for the modification to the Ecollar). Although I had nothing to do with the fix, I was the one who communicated the issue to them so they stuck my name on it. Basically they change some internal parts and your problem will be solved.

There is an external fix that you can do. It involves a trip to Radio Shack, buying some parts from a supplied list and doing it yourself. PM me if you want the DIY version.

Both fixes reduce the overall power of the collar by about 2/3.

Nice thing about the DIY fix is that you can reverse it if you need to.
 
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