[llombardo]

Hello! I have read all your comments.
I agree to phasing out this "alpha" business in my head and enjoy my little puppy. Thank you for all your advice on making me a better trainer. I did expect too much. My golden was one smart puppy so I kind of assumed they'd be alike. Pretty silly of me.

I know he's JUST a puppy but these dogs grow fast, big and strong. So, it does make sense to be worried considering it's my first GSD puppy and they react differently than Golden Retrievers. Many people gave me false thoughts about their nature and it had me more worried than I should've been. I know when they are raised right that they can be the best dogs.

I got a few questions though.

1. Do I give treats for EVERY time he does something good? I read few of your fellow's comments and I read "don't phase out treats yet". When is a good time to start phasing them out?
2. Is it ok if they walk in front of you or should I fix that right away?

I think I understand where you are coming from, since I have a Golden Retriever and a GSD. They are about 2 years apart in age. I didn't want a puppy, because of all the work, potty training, etc. Then I got my golden, such an easy pup. I thought, that wasn't so bad...then came the GSD. They are more energetic and definitely more mouthy. After I got through 6 months, I started forgetting how crazy the GSD drove me. After she was a year, I started thinking about another GSD puppy. It gets better and when they grow up they are worth all of it. With the treats, it depends on how you want to train. I started phasing treats out as they both ended their 3rd obedience class, so about 7-9 months. They still get treats when we practice obedience, but when I tell them to do something, they do it without any issues. Its all about timing. There is nothing wrong with teaching him to heel or loose leash walking now. I found that mine didn't go to far and would come back and circle me. In class we were the demo for a follow me exercise and the teachers exact words were....She won't lose Robyn..she's a German Shepherd.

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

I got a few questions though.

1. Do I give treats for EVERY time he does something good? I read few of your fellow's comments and I read "don't phase out treats yet". When is a good time to start phasing them out?

As a general rule, the rate of reinforcement (how frequently you're giving a treat) should be higher for newer and more difficult behaviors, and lower for easier behaviors that are fully learned and generalized to new situations So it's not about using a bunch of treats to train and then stopping. You might not need to use many treats for simple sits around the house anymore, but if you're training something new you'd go back to marking and rewarding every repetition. And if you're increasing the difficulty of an established behavior (sit in this example) by adding distance, duration, or distractions, you may need to temporarily increase the rate of reinforcement as well.

2. Is it ok if they walk in front of you or should I fix that right away?

You get to decide the criteria for leash walking, but you're going to have to spend some time training it. If you're okay with him out in front a bit, don't worry about it. If you'd rather he walk at your side, then start reinforcing that position.

 

[Kaity]

This has become a depressing day for me... T-T
How do I get past his dominance?

These are some tactics I've been working on...
- I never walk over/around him. I make him move.
- I make sure I eat first and leave his food on the counter until we're finished eating. THEN I feed him.
- We never let him out the door before us.
- I never let him walk in front of me when we walk. If he does I quickly change directions.
- I ignore his barking/whining.
- I never lose tug-o-war.

That's so far it.

He is a dog. You are not. He is not dominant, nor should you be. Be a leader, be his teacher.

Dog "dominance" bull crap is based on wolves, in captivity packs. In the wild, wolves operate just as a family. Mom Dad.. so on and so on. Be equal with your dog, he isn't going to respect you just because you make him watch you eat first then he gets his meal.

Oh and another thing: Dogs aren't wolves.

 

[Lotus]

As a general rule, the rate of reinforcement (how frequently you're giving a treat) should be higher for newer and more difficult behaviors, and lower for easier behaviors that are fully learned and generalized to new situations So it's not about using a bunch of treats to train and then stopping. You might not need to use many treats for simple sits around the house anymore, but if you're training something new you'd go back to marking and rewarding every repetition. And if you're increasing the difficulty of an established behavior (sit in this example) by adding distance, duration, or distractions, you may need to temporarily increase the rate of reinforcement as well.



You get to decide the criteria for leash walking, but you're going to have to spend some time training it. If you're okay with him out in front a bit, don't worry about it. If you'd rather he walk at your side, then start reinforcing that position.

Thank you for your response. I found it very helpful

 

[Lotus]

He is a dog. You are not. He is not dominant, nor should you be. Be a leader, be his teacher.

Dog "dominance" bull crap is based on wolves, in captivity packs. In the wild, wolves operate just as a family. Mom Dad.. so on and so on. Be equal with your dog, he isn't going to respect you just because you make him watch you eat first then he gets his meal.

Oh and another thing: Dogs aren't wolves.

I found your comment to be VERY RUDE and would appreciate it if you would refrain from patronizing me. I know dogs are not wolves, but I also know that they are incredibly closely related to them in the evolutionary chain and have extremely similar social/physical patterns. Also, I KNOW I'M NOT A DOG I DON'T NEED YOU TO POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS. If you're going to be disrespectful then don't leave comments. We're just trying to learn, not abuse or mistreat our puppy.

 

[readaboutdogs]

I'm just an average household dog owner, I think you've read a lot of good advice here. I heard or read too that you can make up word commands that you like or want to use, or what comes natural! Doesn't have to be all "formal"commands, unless that's what you like! I say"lets go" to get them up and moving, if they are laying in the hall and I don't want to step over or go around mine will move if I say "beep beep"! I guess I'm saying relax and enjoy! I think the growl at your roommate is an invitation for play too! Do stuff to surprise him too! He'll love it! Hide, chase him, have fun!

 

[selzer]

I found your comment to be VERY RUDE and would appreciate it if you would refrain from patronizing me. I know dogs are not wolves, but I also know that they are incredibly closely related to them in the evolutionary chain and have extremely similar social/physical patterns. Also, I KNOW I'M NOT A DOG I DON'T NEED YOU TO POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS. If you're going to be disrespectful then don't leave comments. We're just trying to learn, not abuse or mistreat our puppy.

I don't think she was trying to be rude. A lot of Cesar and similar dominance stuff came from erroneous research on wolf behavior. For example, studying wolves in a captive setting.

And the premise of all the alpha stuff is that we become the alpha-leader of the pack. Humans really can't be alpha-pack leaders. It just isn't possible as we are not dogs and our dogs know that. Unfortunately, way too many cling to these structures and try to convince their dogs that they are alpha.

I prefer to consider myself my dogs' god, and not their pack leader. Pack leaders get old and over-thrown, by young pack members. A pair of dogs can leave the pack and start their own pack. They don't leave their god.

Now I know that dogs do not have an understanding of the after-life, but I am to them this wonderful being from whom all the good things in life come. I provide food, and pets, and praise, and games, and structure. They are so happy to just be in my presence. It is kind of a wow feeling.

I am also way more responsible for them than a pack leader is to a pack member. I fix their hurts, I groom them, I provide everything, I train. I can demand, and I can command, and I can ask, and their answer is always "your wish is my command."

Another thing. Pack leaders really don't praise pack members. I mean Sr. Wolf does not single Jr Wolf out, and complement them on the effective take down when they were on the hunt. Nope. Sr. Wolf walks over takes a hunk of meat and may walk away. Jr Wolf snatches his, and goes and finds him a spot where he will probably be able to eat it.

But dogs LOVE praise. They will do just about anything for a Good Girl, What a Good Girl You Are! This is so anti-dog pack alpha leader that it really shouldn't even work. But it does.

But people like Cesar keep reviving the alpha leader garbage until it is really ingrained in a lot of people, and it causes them problems. And when we on here try to negate some of this theory, it takes some doing because people buy into it so fully, and Cesar is making tons of money on it. He has TV shows. He has to know what he is talking about, or so the people think.

 

[NancyJ]

Welcome to the forum...

Shame on Nat Geo for allowing this alpha/dominance stuff to be perpetuated.
It is as bad as the sasquatch and mermaid stuff on the other channels. Only you would hope you could "trust" Nat Geo....Don't get us wrong, control and respect are VERY VERY important! But you control the resources / have a lot of patience and there are a lot of very helpful folks to get you through the various phases. Of course one on one puppy classes with a good instructor are very helpful - you can't beat someone who knows what they are doing and actually sees your dog and you interacting with it.

I am on my 6th GSD and still get help. Asked a Master Trainer for the police "when do you get to the point you don't need some outside help?" and she said NEVER.

FWIW, ever see how many times Cesar got himself bit? Also there is a lot that goes on between the times the cameras are rolling as well.

Good advice - yes GSD puppies can be exasperating and sometimes for a couple of years.

Rude comments - It is easy to take a comment the wrong way because we rely so much on visual cues we often miss the intent of the written word (OTOH, sometimes the intent is intended to be rude.......)

Anyway.......best thing is to just gloss by anything that you perceive as a personal dig -assume it is not - or report it if it is most assuredly one. Believe me, ignoring it (something I struggle with, too) irks a rude person more than giving them the time of day.

 

[x11]

I got a few questions though.

1. Do I give treats for EVERY time he does something good? I read few of your fellow's comments and I read "don't phase out treats yet". When is a good time to start phasing them out?


2. Is it ok if they walk in front of you or should I fix that right away?

no expert but i will phase out treats when the dog is no longer living - having said that i switched to a randon reward protocol with jackpots as soon as the dog has learned fully what you want - one command at at time.

i ALWAYS carry treats either food (dry is easier to have in yr pack indefinately obviously) or ball/tug.

pups have more food drive generally than ball drive so mainly food for pups and ball for older dogs.


by random ONCE the dog knows the command which no 11wo pup ever born will KNOW then treat randomly, first rep, third rep, nothing, jackpot....it actually makes them more obedient.

as for walking in front - imo the pup is to new to life to do that as any kind of challenge, does not have the maturity to think of that as a challenge so i would ignore it. a pup that age hasn't even got full coordination of it's body.

sorry you got fed all the popular dominance theory stuff going around at this time - is causing nothing but drama.

do yrself a BIG, BIG favour and watch some micheal ellis videos, altho i haven't seen them i heard dunbar is good, i also reccomend the way susan arret turns evrything into a fun game.

good luck.

 

[Castlemaid]

I used to believe too that I had to exert my pack leader status by force in order to gain respect. My dogs should obey me because I'm the boss. Period.

My first dog was a spaniel mixed breed from the shelter. He was an easy, happy, effortless dog to own. I always say that he was my confidence-building dog.

Then after he passed on, I got Keeta, also from the shelter. Let's just say that she was a completely different animal. We were constantly in conflict, locked in a battle off will. Oh, she had her good side, and I enjoyed her, but everything seemed to be a struggle: she was wild, wild wild!!! Dealing with her was just exhausting, and not fun at all. I had to admit that what I was doing didn't work, and needed a different approach. I wanted an easy, effortless relationship with her, like I had with my previous dog, and I was even willing to go so far as to admit that my approach in trying to work with her was wrong! (I had hit bottom to allow that possibility to seep into my mind . . . but I was desperate, grasping at straws).

So I did what I never thought I would do. Signed up for positive, reward-based classes! I had sunk so low, that I was willing to give up all my self-esteem and bribe my dog to obey me . . .

Well, at the end of that 8 week class, I had a different dog, a brand new mutually respectful relationship with her, and outlook on training theory that actually worked! Amazingly, both me and my dog had a ton of fun, and grew closer together.

The key to a non-aggressive dog is not dominating him, but forging a strong bond based on trust and respect.

And this bears repeating - and all the advice in this thread is from GSD owners, many of whom have dogs from working lines, and pursue protection training. So yes, the dogs are strong and are supposed to have a certaing amount of innate aggression in order to be fearless police and military working dogs, but the aggression is not something that is always just below the surface that threatens to constantly bubble over if the handler isn't keeping the dog in it's place by force, fear and intimidation - the strength and aggression comes from inner confidence and courage to take on actual, direct threats. No need to be anything but neutral and happy if all is right in the world. In addition, GSDs have a very strong desire and need to bond to their owner, and they wish to please - very important traits in dogs bred to work closely with a handler. So creating that bond and respect is not that hard, if you just relax and be yourself.

 

[Castlemaid]

Oh, and while I remember this, DON'T try to prevent food aggression by constantly playing in his food, always taking his food away then giving it back, or standing over him and petting and fusing with him while he eats to get him used to interference.
As many new members that sign up to the board looking for help find out, this only creates food aggression - pup at one point will just get totally fed up with the constant interference, and will eventually let you know that, not too kindly.

Leave him alone, so he does not have to worry about anyone taking his food away.
There are a number of threads on the go right now and just very recently with a lot of good advice on how to stop and prevent food aggression, if you are interested in reading up on it.

 

[doggiedad]

you have a 10 week old pup and you question whether it was raised right as a pup, a 10 week old pup and you question whether it was raised right as a pup, did i say you have a 10 week old pup? hang in there. find a
puppy class and take it from there.

Hi,
my roommate and I got a 10 week old GSD puppy. It's been about 7 days since we got him(so he's 11 weeks now) and I think he may be showing signs of dominance? This isn't my first dog but it IS my first GSD.

He is quite nippy so when he tries to teeth/bite I try to redirect him to a toy. However, at random times he seems to show a tad bit of aggression to my roommate. He snapped his teeth at her and kept barking with a low body stance. I'm scared that he might show aggression when he is full grown and when we have less control over him. He is growing quite quickly.

I keep my commands to 1 time minimum but he sometimes listens and sometimes doesn't. When he doesn't I force the command on him. He definitely understands the command because when I have treats he has no problem following through. He's learning to ignore more frequently though.

My landlord came down while eating some cereal but he kept pouncing on her and when we pushed him away he walked away with his tail curling upwards, which I read to be a sign of confidence/dominance. He also seems to sneak onto our bed when we are sleeping but whenever I feel a vibration I assert him with a firm "NO" and push him off, but he keeps on trying to get on the bed. He's extremely defiant.

I know persistency is the key and rewarding good behavior is the way to train, but it seems like we're making no progress at all. People have recommended alpha rolling but it seems stupid to pin a puppy to the ground.

I bought him from a breeder who SUPPOSEDLY had good feedback but other's say the breeder is really sketchy.

>>>> Maybe he was spoiled or not raised right during
his puppy hood? <<<<

I know he might be testing me but can this lead to future aggression?
Please help! Thank you in advance.

 

[HarrietHouse]

I wanted to reply to this thread because my husband and I were the exact same way when we first got our GSD at 10 weeks old! I will say that my husband was always thinking he was trying to dominate him (being another male) I laughed at that all the time. However, I've alpha rolled my pup twice mainly because he was getting to landsharky/crazy biting my ankles and just ignoring him wasn't working! I just held him down for a minute unitl he calmed down, let him up and he was fine. I guess I just figured that if I was a momma GSD she'd let him know enough is enough.

My husband and I constantly pick him up and hold him on the floor like a baby. (mainly to help with socialization and being elevated, touched, held, etc) At 17 weeks he now actually likes it! Although I'm tiny and his 40 lbs is getting a bit much for me to hold.

I let him win at tug all the time. I grew up with airdale and collies and playing tug-of-war with them as a kid all the time. Never did they "develop" aggression from playing tug-of-war. I found it humorous when my friend didn't let me play tug with her mini golden-doodle..."it leads to aggression". Here I have a GSD and play with him all the time. A golden-doodle...seriously.

When I do play tug I have a "done" command that let's him know to release. When he does, he sits and I throw it. He LOVES fetching anything and will bring it right back. Sometimes he holds it in his mouth and we resume tug, other times he'll drop it at my feet and we'll start fetch.

I would just calm down a bit. My husband and I have super high expectations of ourselves and realized we're crazy with our dog. (my 17 week knows 14 commands and at least 8 party tricks..yeah I'm insane - but they're so smart so when he learns something in a day, why not teach him more!) We've calmed down a lot since we got him and so what if he eats a wood chip, a berry, a small rock, dirt...bla bla...he's a vacuum, he's a dog, he'll survive.

 

[Baillif]

Tug gets a really bad rap. The fact of the matter is the most obedient dogs in the world are usually dogs being rewarded with a game of tug for their work. There is a whole wealth of information out there on how to use tug to help train your dog and reinforce good behaviors. Definitely go seek it out. Michael Ellis is a great source of information for this. GSDs are a breed that often end up more toy motivated than food motivated as they age, and you should learn to take advantage of this.

You also might find yourself having more success with getting compliance if you start to work the puppy in engagement. Basically all you are trying to do is teach your puppy to pay focused attention to you for a longer and longer period of time. You pretty much just lure the dog around and reward for his attention. A lot of his not following commands at this point are probably not due to him blowing you off they are due to

1. Him not yet having the command generalized (knowing it means the same thing everywhere)
2. Not paying attention because he has a very very short attention span.
3. Not having practiced enough to get it completely right, or he simply is getting confused. A lot of commands sound fairly similar (sit, stand, stay)

Working engagement at this stage is more important than your basic obedience commands. You should do it in lots of different places and not just your home. People that don't work engagement in lots of places often wonder why they get much better attention from their pup inside the house when nothing is going on and can't seem to figure out why they can't get that same level of attention outside in the yard. Paying attention is a learned skill. It's easy to do when there is nothing else interesting going on. Not so easy when there are other things to watch.

There are dominant dogs out there in the way you think of dominant dogs. Dominance as people think of it is an overused explanation of many behaviors out there. A truly dominant dog that has the pack and rank drive to continually challenge its owner where it sees weakness is very rare. Even still they don't really start this behavior until they are adults, although you may see glimpses of it in adolescence. That kind of behavior is genetic and is more commonly found in lines of dogs being bred for defense work.

They are confident dogs, they are hard dogs that can take hard corrections and laugh at you. They walk with their heads and tails high and proud with their chests out. When you really see it there is no mistaking it. There is a dog like that in the k9 unit at a sheriffs department around where I live. He has a defensive bark that will make your sphincter tighten involuntarily. He hits people like a mack truck and bites harder than any dog in the unit. He is (and they are) not the neurotic unsure dogs you see on the Dog Whisperer that simply didn't have boundaries and rules set up by their owners. You don't alpha roll a dog like that you do not already have a very solid relationship with if you value your face hands and arms. I've only seen a handful of dogs like this in person my entire life.

 

[bga]

Oh yeah, he's definitely a brat. Crating him at night doesn't seem to work that well. He never stops crying even if we ignore him. I also tried teaching him that being in the crate isn't so bad but he doesn't believe me . He seems to be growing quickly so spending $6o bucks on a crate that won't be in use soon seems like a bit of a waste. No offense.

We have a puppy that is slightly older (nearly 15 weeks) and I can't imagine not using a crate. He is much like your puppy, very nippy, over the top energy, into everything he can get his mouth on, and seemingly impossible to wear out.

We still use the crate extensively, during periods when we can't supervise him and overnight. If we didn't, he would be destroying the house and I don't know how we would have potty trained him. (It only took a few days using the crate) Yes, for the first couple nights, he cried, yelped, and protested as if he was being tortured, but we endured that, and now he only makes the occasional protest, nothing serious. If your pup at 11 weeks can already be left unattended and not potty or get into anything while you are sleeping, then you have a truly exceptional and rare dog.

Why do you think the crate won't be used soon? We made our crate available to our last GSD for her entire life. When she was old enough to be trusted, we simply removed the door and she went in and out at will. It gives them a safe place that they own and most dogs will grow to like this over time. A good crate is very durable and will likely last you a lifetime, though I would guess you'll pay more than $60 to get it. (A decent crate that will fit an adult GSD will probably run between $100-$200)

 

[Baillif]

You want the crate to be pretty snug too because it cuts down on the anxiety. It's kind of like swaddling a baby. Thundershirts for dogs work under the same principle. Restricting dog movements keep em calmer.

 

[Castlemaid]

I like all the info and shared personal experience from everyone here so much that I made this a sticky. Thank you all for posting and helping out!

 

[rdease]

I have a 14 week old GSD and he is the same way. This is my 2nd GSD and like you with the first one I was a bit afraid of her at first, worrying if I could control her as an adult. Everyone is right here, he is just a baby and nipping is a part of playing and learning his boundaries. Be patient and let him be a puppy. He will learn from you an be a great friend.

 

[NSweet]

I can say I am in the same boat as you my friend! I have a 6 month old GSD mix and she can be a terror at times. Slowly but surely replacing my hands with toys has helped her not bite me. One thing I do (and has been recommended time and time again) is when she starts getting too rough I almost yelp and say "OUCH!" to throw her off and "ENOUGH" if she continues and ultimately "TOO BAD" and she gets a mini time out in her crate for about 1 min. She is not 100% at it right now but it definantley helped out. We're almost there the light at the end of the tunnel is not too far ahead we just gotta stick it out! Best of luck!

 

[wolfy dog]

Lotus, just curious about how your dog is doing right now?