I think there are situations where I would agree and situations where I would not. There is an excellent bitch in my mentor's kennel who will not stand for breeding. She (the bitch) just doesn't have time for it. She is a high drive dog. A team of experts tried to do a natural breeding three times and all three times she wriggled, writhed, and danced out of the way. She's been bred through AI and had very successful litters.
In this situation, there's nothing affecting her 'genetic fitness'. She's just a feisty lady who'd rather be working than standing still for twenty minutes. And there are males who just have horrible aim. They could try all day and just end up frustrated. They're not anatomically inaccurate, they're just bad at getting the job done.

I don't understand, however, dogs with incorrect anatomy that are still encouraged to breed. Or dogs with exaggerated anatomy that make natural birth all but impossible (boston terriers and the like). If that's what we're addressing, then I think there are plenty of specimens out there that probably embody the same desirable characteristics that are more suitable for breeding. No sense in potentially perpetuating an anatomical defect. Of course, I feel the same way about bad mothers. Just my opinion.

 

I know of a situation where a breeder has an older dog ; it's just hard for him to stand so long for the tie...so, for that breeder, AI is the best solution .

For those who have frozen semen...AI is their only option.

I think it should be up to the breeder...they know their dogs best.

JMO.

 

I think, in general, that dogs that canot be bred naturally, should not be bred.

 

Totally agree. And guys, reread. The statement pertained to bitches who need AI to get pregnant, not an aging stud who AI was easier on.

Marbury, I respectfully disagree. You think a dog who cannot be bred naturally is balanced mentally and should reproduce? Reproduction is a natural part of life; it's hardwired into all life (or should be). I would never, under any circumstances, breed a bitch who wouldn't breed. That's Darwin at his finest, screaming from the hilltops, that natural selection is alive and well. In the wild, she would not reproduce. Period.

 

I would never, under any circumstances, breed a bitch who wouldn't breed. That's Darwin at his finest, screaming from the hilltops, that natural selection is alive and well. In the wild, she would not reproduce. Period.

Not that I disagree with you about the issue of breeding a difficult bitch, but you're incorrect that this is natural selection. These breedings would probably never even occur in the wild or who even knows how it would be structured were it left to nature. There would be different selection criteria and nature would truly be work when breedings occurred naturally in the wild with nature doing the selection.

We use artificial selection to breed domesticated animals. No two ways around it. We are already interfering and have interfered with nature to make these breedings happen. We play nature and select what we want. This entire endeavor is artificial and manipulated by human beings. Think about the grains that you eat or the fruits that you buy, this is all artificial selection at work. It's odd when we start bringing natural selection reasoning into a process that is already artificial because the entire process is already manipulated BY human beings, not nature. We have to decide just how much we want to interfere when we carry out artificial selection on our domesticated grain, fruits, vegetables and animals.

I've seen a small scale of how breeding would go if dogs were left to their own devices. I grew up in India, have seen the street dog packs and observed their reproductive behaviors. That is more akin to "natural selection". Nature decides which dogs get the best food, who gets to survive dog fights, who gets to escape from traffic, who gets to breed, who is strong enough to whelp a successful litter and which puppy gets to survive to adulthood.

When we pay a 1k stud fee, build a whelping box, give a bitch oxy, help a pup from succumbing to fading puppy syndrome or do any of the other myriad of things we do to interfere with domesticated animal breeding, that is hardly what I call "natural selection". Keep in mind that we are already over the top involved in the artificial selection of everything domesticated.

 

So say you have a 3 year old male that absolutely won't breed... won't even try, even though he is kept with the female during her entire cycle.

Would you force the breeding / AI?

 

So say you have a 3 year old male that absolutely won't breed... won't even try, even though he is kept with the female during her entire cycle.

Would you force the breeding / AI?

I am sure this would be a hard decision... particularly if the dog were mine and I had put a lot of time/effort/and hope into him. But no, I still feel he should not be bred.

Just my opinion. Others will differ.

 

Kimmey, how old was your friend's dog though, when he was neutered. My intact male did not show any interest in females in heat until very recently - he just turned three years old in March, has always ignored females in heat until this June (then went nuts over a female in heat).

Many dogs don't develop the interest in females until they are older.

 

Survival of the fittest.

Under whose rules? Nature's? Because nature is no longer very much at play when we artificially select for traits that WE find desirable in different dog breeds. We selected for these dogs. This is hardly natural selection so it's more apt to say "survival of the fittest...as determined by the human beings doing the selecting". Example: Rhodesian ridgebacks with no ridge were/are culled. Did nature decide ridges led to increased fitness in this breed? No. We decided for aesthetic reasons.

 

Castlemaid- My friend's dog turned six three weeks before his neuter. So he had plenty of time. He showed interest in Koda and other females during their heat cycles. He just never acted on it.

 

Just curious, was that the post referring to breeding females with split heat cycles?

 

Yeah!

 

. I read that as well...

 

Whether or not we can doesn't mean we should...

I am asking whether or not you believe a dog that refuses to breed or doesn't want breed SHOULD be forced into breeding. A female, for example, who has been bred multiple times yet isn't producing litters. For whatever reason. Should you try AI? Do whatever it takes?

In the end, regardless of the fact that artificial selection is how dogs came to be, Nature is the foundation for biological processes, genetics, etc. Yes, we breed for certain genetics.

I am trying to ask whether or not people believe that some dogs do not reproduce simply because on some genetic, biological level - they shouldn't.

I don't know enough about the topic to form an opinion yet, which is why I am asking for thoughts.

 

I am asking whether or not you believe a dog that refuses to breed or doesn't want breed SHOULD be forced into breeding. A female, for example, who has been bred multiple times yet isn't producing litters. For whatever reason. Should you try AI? Do whatever it takes?

Personally, I think it's a self-limiting problem. Sure, you can try AI, and maybe the bitch will conceive, but if you do a lot of that, you're selecting FOR reproductive difficulty... which eventually leads to a dead end. I think at that point, nature will probably take care of the problem by making breeding impossible, thus taking the problem out of the gene pool.

Would I, personally, do AI if all other options failed? I'm not a breeder, so I can't honestly say I would or wouldn't; much would depend on the particular situation I was faced with. If my bitch had a very rare, valuable pedigree that was nearly impossible to find, I might try it, as long as there wasn't any heritable physical problem causing the difficulty. If my bitch was one of hundreds or thousands with a similar pedigree, I'd probably just spay her.

AI is disallowed in Germany, correct?

 

You have to have live breedings in Germany and they set the number of breedings allowed per stud dog. Males are allowed 60 breedings within Germany and 30 to foreign bitches.

But is it because they are so concerned with the integrity of the breed? Nah. They want to control the market and set the price for their dogs. IMO, it's financially motivated more so than by notions of "breed integrity".

 

And they have lots of little tricks for getting around the limit!!! I've been on the receiving end of that.

 

Ahh, very informative. Thanks you two!

 

Great discussion here, I'd love to hear more from breeders about their choices in this regard.

 

There is a huge difference between females that have a "problem" with being bred & conception....and a female who is a "problem" getting bred and conceiving.
*Knowing* the difference is important.

There are extremely dominant females who may have an issue with a particular "stud dog", that may not have an issue with another.....
There are females that *are fertile* later or even earlier in their cycle, that can easily "miss" conception time, because the owner was not aware...and "chose" to breed the female too early or too late. (and yes, there are females who will stand from beginning to end).

These are not examples of females who genuinely have a problem with breeding......so the "natural selection" theory falls short.

WE choose what "pairs" are being used for matings.....not the dogs themselves. (no natural selection there)
WE choose "when the breeding/mating" occurs.....not the dogs.
(no natural selection there)
I think there is a place for the use of an AI & Frozen Semen....and the breeder, should be *educated* enough, when considering either.

I think that a male dog that "won't" breed....should then not be used......since it is a basic instinct....
I think any female that needs to be "medically or induced constantly by intervention" to reproduce....should not be bred.
I also believe that females that kill, mutilate or refuse to care for their litter...should never be bred.......there is no excuse that will ever change my mind on that.

There can be so many variables involved with a "breeding" that I would never consider using a blanket statement.
BUT...if a medical, or psychological (genetic) reason is behind a female or male NOT breeding......then they should not be considered.
Again....JMO

 

I think there is a place for the use of an AI & Frozen Semen....and the breeder, should be *educated* enough, when considering either.

There can be so many variables involved with a "breeding" that I would never consider using a blanket statement.

I agree Robin. Glad to hear an experienced breeder voice their opinion and offer examples of real life scenarios.

 

Thank you, Robin!

 

Amazing post, Robin. I agree with you! Thank you so much for contributing!

 

Robin, Excellent post!
I will never knowing accept a puppy from a male that won't do a natural breeding. Truthfully, I don't want a puppy from a sire that isn't a dominant breeder. It's one of the strongest drives a dog has, if the drive is weak....I don't want progeny from him.....but that's just my eccentric opinion.

 

I really like this - I love how you worded this and I agree.