Pups backslide and go backwards in their training all of the time. You had success before right? Just do the same thing that you did before.

 

Yes, I genuinely believed we were constantly improving, or at least moving forward.
this time I am worried because he’s barking with a lot more energy, as well as lunging with more energy. I have no idea what has triggered this.
earlier People would just dismiss his barking as annoying and carry on. Now his volume and intensity of barking is so much more it has moved from annoying, to concern.
I don’t think anyone believes he is aggressive - but he creates a bit of a spectacle, since he’s so loud. if I try to preempt as before, he acts as if I’m interfering in his fun and then tried play biting me to beg to be allowed - this doesn’t hurt or anything and I can very easily remove him from the area, but I don’t think he will learn anything.
It’s a vicious cycle and counter productive and ironic. If he would just not bark, he would get to meet the dogs in question, as well as play with them. But because he is barking, he is not getting to meet, so he is barking even louder, so not getting to meet…so barking even louder…

 

We spent a lot of time on impulse control. I could stop him on verbal command the instant he is about to stick his mouth in his food, and he would be willing to wait however long I tell him. Likewise during play. We spent a lot of time modifying his behavior by counter conditioning. I don’t understand why he has regressed.

 

I also don’t understand - how can he change so quickly. What is all this time spent training. A few weeks of slow forward progress, then suddenly overnight a leap backwards. I don’t understand what he is gaining from this behavior. It can’t be he is doing it to intimidate other dogs, because he left the street dogs alone.
It can’t be impulse control, because he controlled himself with the street dogs.
It is happening only with leashed dogs. But why he is doing it is a mystery. I can’t think of any reward for barking only at leashed dogs - can’t think of any error to encourage this behavior.

 

I know it's not your style, but it sounds like your pup needs a correction.

BTW, sometimes dogs find behaviours like barking and lunging to be self satisfying....the act can be its own reward.

 

😭…. I can’t…. not disagreeing or anything… just not able to at this time…. what I have done is reached out to multiple persons who are fond of my dog….and who have adult dogs that are stable… and am going to try the approaches in these books…. I am also going to cut out the busiest walk of the day for now to minimise reinforcing bad behavior…. and instead need to replace the activity or location… to make up for his energy management…. 👍…. I will try taking him somewhere else… which is more interesting….

 

Also he seems to have started something else…. Barking when I’m not in the room….. earlier he did not use to do this…he was always just quiet…... Now he does this just once…a few minutes after I leave the room…. a different kind of series of barks…..then he stops….

 

I have also found a third well wisher with a stable dog…. My dog is normally quiet around him once they meet…. Need to somehow coordinate all three…. So I can use all three to mentor him…. I know my dog can learn fast as he is willing to please…. Just need to come up with the right plan… to make best use of the time of these three well wishers… so puppy learns fast…. then use the improvement to get his to learn how to chill when other strange dogs are around…..so that before the well wishers are no longer free…. he has formed a new better habit… and need to consistently reinforce that habit… whatever it is… hoping I can finish reading the feisty fido book tomorrow morning… brain is too slow….

 

A while back my currently 7month old dog used to bark at other dogs. Then after some effort of training him to focus on me, he eventually started ignoring other dogs, or at most after a bark or two, he would leave it. I thought it was going well. He even started ignoring other dogs more than 10ft away.

Then suddenly between yesterday and today he has started barking / lunging at other dogs in my neighbourhood - no snarling, growling or baring of teeth. Just barking.
I purchased Turid Rugaas Barking book, and it seems to me it is excitement barking, because he so rarely gets to meet other dogs, and doesn’t get to actually play with any anymore.

I took him outside my neighbourhood to a different neighbourhood, where there were lots of street dogs (packs). He ignored most of them, despite persistent threatening and aggressive behavior on their part. He neither paid attention to them, nor did he back away. He tried to defuse by sniffing etc, and once it started getting old, he gave not more than two barks - and the packs would go away. No excessive barking or lunging by him, and no instructions by me. All him, behaving in a calm and well behaved manner, despite threatening behavior by street dogs. He was incredible.

Packs of street dogs. Where are you?

 

North India… but pretty much whole of India is like this… 😱…. lots of people feed street dogs….. but do not train them….or necessarily vaccinate or sterilise them….. So almost every street has a local pack… which will probably not harm people… but will descend upon any dog not part of its pack….so people taking their dog for a walk in most neighbourhoods need sticks… or need to be familiar with these dogs… I made friends with the street dogs outside my building…. But they try to attack my dog whenever they see him… haven’t yet figured out how to make them friends…

 

Puppy is training me… to be better at training him….😑….at home he is becoming more affectionate and obedient…. and even better behaved when other dogs are not around… leave it etc is really good now…he’s understanding more and more things…I know he just really wants to meet other dogs… so I must find good, stable dogs for him to meet… and need to figure out the right plan…. Will try to reach out to some other trainers in the US… online… I think two were recommended earlier… I will execute whatever plan asap… and nip this in the bud…. But need to figure out the plan…. asap…👍…. wish I could speak to Stonnie…. But not much $ now…..will figure it out somehow…. When walking in some other neighbourhoods…. Even dogs indoors are barky…. My puppy remains quiet there…. and calm…. Nothing stopping him from barking there…. So something I need to figure out…why he doesn’t bark there… but barks only in my neighbourhood….

 

His behavior is getting even stranger… when we are outdoors, he is suddenly jumping up and play biting me again. This is something that stopped a few weeks ago, and I used to stop just by saying a simple no, or shoo when I noticed him getting started. Nothing like this for weeks. So I’m wondering

• is this just adolescence?
• is this because of some sound or other trigger only in my neighbourhood that triggers him? Maybe a dog whistle? I don’t see other dogs reacting…
• is it possible that there is some medical problem that my vet has been unable to see?

My vet says he is perfectly fine, and they don’t even muzzle him because they think he’s a sweet dog. Another friend who has had German shepherds throughout his life says he has a great temperament, and he sees lots of GSDs because his family member is a breeder.

It is unusual, because after a couple of minutes of this, he suddenly stops and we resume our walk like nothing happened. He even obeys all commands and is well behaved.

This thing has never happened at home, or in locations outside our neighbourhood. At home his obedience is so good now, that if he brings a toy to play and I say wait. He just puts it down and waits. Doesn’t shove it in my face anymore.

edit - I can’t figure out why it’s happening only in my neighbourhood.

• if it was a behavior issue, should happen in other locations also
• likewise if it is a health issue
• Also - not sure of what conditions to create to reproduce this behavior. If I could do that, then I could figure out the issue.
• Edit : he’s also started barking at inanimate objects - like a new see-saw was installed in the playground. All of a sudden he starts barking. I take him up to it, and tap on it, and he stops barking. Smells it. Then ignores it. I know this kind of thing is normal. But, it’s odd that all these things are all happening at the same time, and all of a sudden…

 

Anyway, here is my plan (for science)

• I have read “barking” by Turid rugaas
• feisty fido by Patricia McConnell

I will execute the plans described in those books.
If you guys don’t hear back from me …. just wait longer…. 😑…. 👍

 

I didn't know you were in India, I thought England for some reason until I read about the street dog packs. If you're attempting purely positive training, I think you're in for a long and winding (and not entirely successful) road.

 

If you're attempting purely positive training, I think you're in for a long and winding (and not entirely successful) road.

Agree...I would ask myself, what would, Ivan, Bart, Stonnie, Michael do? There are others of course, but that would be a good start...

 

Stonnie said in one of his videos that a dog should have experiences that build character.. experience in making good choices when there is some danger.. I guess the context is different… he was talking about if dogs are too safe they may not learn how to make good choices or something.. so I figure I will try to have more experiences.. to give him confidence.. but keep him safe also…

 

I don't envy you having to raise your dog with rising street dogs. It will be tough since even with calm packs, the chance to play with them is more exciting than playing with you. You will have to be fair but firm. Trying to be more interesting than a pack of other dogs will be very difficult, even if you act like a clown or very a roasted chicken for reward treats.

 

I’ve been taking my puppy out more and more to areas with street dogs - he generally ignores them as we walk towards our destination. Even once they start to bark / come closer he ignores them - they are cowardly, and are used to bullying stray dogs from outside their territory because of superior numbers. In the event they are too persistent, then he barks once or twice and they back off. If there is an attack, then I raise my voice, and it tends to halt their advance and cause them to retreat.

It seems that puppy seems to be able to distinguish between pet dogs and street dogs clearly, as he only barks at leashed dogs and tries to initiate play with them. He does not bark at street dogs unless the aforementioned conditions arise, and does not try to initiate play with them.

Regarding barking at leashed dogs, with the help of a mentor dog I was able to train him to lie down and not bark for upto 20 seconds (at which point he will bark once or twice and be quiet when I tell him again).The longer he was quiet, the closer he got to approach. So when I brought him back to my neighbourhood he automatically tried the same behavior without prompting.
The only problem is, when training with the mentor dog, we are in a low distraction low stimulation environment. In my neighbourhood it is highly stimulating and a large number of dogs, so he crosses threshold sooner.
At present the plan is to continue working with mentor dogs, and slowly increasing the difficulty etc, until he finds it easier to be calm. He is also learning how to just relax and do nothing, when around other dogs, instead of always playing.

 

Why does my dog mainly bark at leashed pet dogs and not so much at street dogs?

puppy is 7.5 months old.
Within my neighbourhood, when my dog sees other pet dogs he barks a lot, and as he gets closer tries to initiate play. He is very loud, and practically demanding play. The other pet dogs may come close to meet, but generally don’t seem to know what to do after that - they just stand there neither afraid nor playing. Some get intimidated and back off as my fellow is loud.

on the streets, packs of street dogs approach us, to try and scare my dog away. In general street dogs here are territorial and try to push other dogs not part of their pack off their territory. My dog does not bark back - he does calming behavior like sniffing the ground etc. He is neutral - neither trying to interact with them, nor looking to me for support. It’s like he’s trying to tell the other dogs to chill. I know the street dogs are unlikely to attack me, so I keep calm but instead keep an eye if they may attack him, in case I need to intervene.
I do not chase them away preemptively , as I do not want to teach my dog to be aggressive either - so it’s only if we are attacked I will intervene by shooing the other dogs away.
If the pack is persistent and won’t leave us alone, I turn to face them and just look at them, and puppy may bark once or twice - calm barks.. and then the pack retreats.

So based on this, I feel puppy knows how to communicate, and is self assured / confident / secure. Meaning he knows how he is supposed to behave with other dogs. But he is a bit over energetic to pet dogs in my neighbourhood - if he was a bit calmer and quieter and gentler he would get more play.

- Is it just because in our neighbourhood he regards it as home, he is informal and loud with neighbourhood pets?

- I noticed outside our neighbourhood he barks only at other leashed dogs. He doesn’t initiate barks with street dogs. Maybe this has something to do with leashed dogs?

I have been working on watch me - so in our neighbourhood if a pet dog is passing by I can break his focus long enough so he is quiet and the other dog passes. But if the other dog approaches us directly to meet, then it’s harder to keep him focused on me.

Which should I work on first:

• Improving range of watch me do dogs can pass closer and closer without him reacting?
• duration of watch me? So at a distance if the other pet stops he can still be focused on me - i feel duration is not as challenging as distance at present.

once the other dog is over 10-20ft away he becomes quiet, especially if it is facing the other direction.

Regarding impulse control, puppy can wait however long I tell him to before food and play (the longer it gets he may or may not fidget a little… (only for food - play he doesn’t even fidget - just waits calmly) nowadays sometimes he just lies there and waits for food). On occasion that I get distracted in a middle of a wait and he thinks he can start eating, even if his nose is in the bowl I can tell him to sit / wait and he will comply.

I am confident that over time I will slowly improve his focus on me with watch me, but just thought I would ask for opinions anyway..

 

Curious, where do you live where there's so many street dogs?

 

I am answering my own question I guess, but in my opinion it is probably one of two things:

- He senses the difference between street dogs and pet dogs, so is more formal with them.

- He sees a leash, and due to some learned association uses that as a marker for different behavior.

- My objective should be just to continue working on distance and duration till he is focused on me even when other pet dogs are right next to him. In a short period since we started working on improving watch me already we have been able to go for a few quiet walks by distracting him from other dogs. So I guess it’s just a matter of putting in some more work.

I guess that is all 🙏

 

Do you sometimes let him meet dogs that are leashed while you're out walking?

 

I used to do so frequently when we first started going for walks after his vaccination was complete. He even had a few regular play mates.
Then in my neighbourhood a couple of out of control labs took apart a Shihtzu, so after that people got a little nervous about dogs meeting. So his meetings reduced quite a bit after that since other persons were cautious - there are very few German Shepherds in my neighbourhood - maybe 3 out of 100+ other dogs.
I would let him meet only known stable dogs, who he got along with before, aside from his regular playmates.
He is now more than twice the size of his former playmates, so doesn’t get to play so much.
No idea why I didn’t think of this. I guess lack of sleep catching up with me 🙃

 

Well, if you're thinking about increasing his opportunities to play, perhaps that would be good. But in general my advice would be to stop allowing interaction with other dogs entirely while on leash. It set the expectation in the pup's mind, making it much harder for him to keep it together when he sees them.

 

That makes sense. I dont introduce him to new dogs anymore. There are a couple of much older dogs he knows I’m hoping will mentor him.

 

Why are you making him wait to eat? Having him wait until you put the bowl down is a good idea, but why should he have to wait longer than that? Seems unnecessary and a bit mean to me and too controlling. Put the bowl down and let the dog eat.

 

Impulse control.

 

Okay. But how long do you have to make him wait to get that point across. And why does he need to wait longer than it takes to put the bowl down and get out of his way.

It's just not something that I would do or feel is necessary for teaching impulse control. Just my opinion, and everyone has their own. To me, it's like teasing the dog. Here is the food, but you can't have any of it.

 

Okay. But how long do you have to make him wait to get that point across. And why does he need to wait longer than it takes to put the bowl down and get out of his way.

It's just not something that I would do or feel is necessary for teaching impulse control. Just my opinion, and everyone has their own. To me, it's like teasing the dog. Here is the food, but you can't have any of it.

Well he can have it (all of it) - but he needs to wait. That’s the point.

It would only be teasing if you never give your dog the food but wave it in front of his face.

As for how long - you need to build up impulse control over time - initially he may or may not be able to control himself for X seconds… then over time that becomes easier and easier so you can extend duration.

Additionally, if the dog only knows how to wait while you’re physically holding the food, then you’re limiting yourself and the dog. By being able to build trust that your dog will obey even when you’re not around, both you and your dog can experience more freedom. By placing food on the ground, walking away, doing stuff, you are slowly training your dog to obey you even when you’re not around - that way he can have more freedom, and you can have more freedom.

Finally, there may be abstract situations that are dangerous for your dog, that you may not be able to explain to him in words, but it’s important that he put aside his feelings and obey. Consider a ball (instead of food). Say you toss a ball, and all of a sudden you see a car hurtling down the street. Do you feel confident in your method that you can command your dog to stop chasing the ball, and that he will obey?
what if you’re outdoors somewhere and just after you place food on the ground something falls in it? Are you confident your dog would obey you to ignore the food?
When there is nothing physically restricting your dog from giving in to his urges, will he still obey your commands? Whatever works for you and your dog is what you should do.

there are many more experienced persons on this forum who can probably explain impulse control better than I can, but to me, if I were to explain it in the most concise manner it would be to build up the ability of your dog to put aside his emotional urges and obey your commands, regardless of whether you’re around to enforce them or not. That is the essence of training.
Edit: just to be more complete - there is also something called intelligent disobedience - where as a handler you make a mistake in your command, but the dog does the right thing anyway. That is a different story. There is also your dogs ability to analyse a situation and do the right thing. That’s also different. The point is, your dog should be able to think and make a good choice, rather than just giving in to something solely just because of an urge.

 

I'm with @Pawsed on this one. Dogs don't generalize well. So the impulse control doesn't transfer well to other areas. Impulse control, like other behaviors, has to be taught in a wide variety of locations and circumstances.

Personally, I never make my dog wait to eat. But I have left her in the house with the door open for hours, or in the car with the back hatch open (it's a van), or in a down at Home Depot, etc. etc. etc.

When it comes to dinner, I don't believe playing waiting games teaches a dog anything that you're hoping for...

 

We understand impulse control. I just teach it with games instead of making my pup wait an indeterminate time until he gets to have his meal. As long as he sits and waits until I release him to eat .. that's all that matters. I teach longer duration impulse control while sitting down and using treats.

 

What book did you get that concept from? Waiting for his bowl indoors in a zero distraction environment has little to do with the impulses he's struggling with on your walks or other situations you're going to experience. Expecting any animal to deny itself food and water, basic needs,while unsupervised is not going to happen.

 

I do a variety of impulse control exercises both indoors and outdoors. The sentence in my earlier post where I mentioned my dogs ability to wait is so that when people consider what my question is about (my dogs barking at leashed dogs), they know that I am also working on impulse control. I think my post would become verbose if I detail every single impulse control exercise or other action I am trying to train, so I just detailed what I thought was relevant.
What I understand about impulse control is what I get from reading a few books, watching Stonnie Dennis videos etc, other trainers videos, and reading on forums.

 

I do a variety of impulse control exercises - like waiting to play, waiting to eat, or waiting to be combed / brushed.

 

We live with these dogs and many of us have raised multiple shepherds. It gets frustrating for members here to share our experience and take time to help to no avail. Nobody wants to see you struggling with an adult lunging barking dog.He won't grow out of it and waiting for food won't help you.

 

I think we have gotten stuck on the point of discussing impulse control related to food. Pawsed seemed to ask questions about impulse control and food and the discussion seems to have segued away from the actual topic of discussion.

I am not saying it has anything to do with the topic - I was only trying to answer pawsed questions.
The fact that I even mentioned impulse control was tangential, just to mention it’s something I’m working on.

why we are only discussing impulse control related to food, and not barking is beyond me.
Nor am I questioning anyones experience.

 

I'm one who has raised several shepherds over the years. They have always been great dogs for our family. I'm by no means an expert or a professional trainer.

I teach impulse control in many areas, and teach the dog to wait until his meal is served, but no longer. I just don't feel that is fair to the dog and above all, I always want to be fair.

I don't want an automaton for a dog. I don't want to control each and every thing the dog does for every moment of the day. I want a safe and happy partner to live with, to have fun with and one that can make his own good choices when necessary.

Impulse control doesn't transfer from one thing to another. You have to teach each situation as it comes up and in different situations.

As has been said before, and it seems to have been ignored, if you continue to let your dog meet other dogs, even stable ones on leash, your dog will want to meet all dogs on leashes. He can't differentiate a stable leashed dog from any other leashed dog. Until you can control his reactions, and he learns that you control the dogs he meets, in my opinion, he shouldn't meet any other leashed dogs.