[GypsyGhost]

Protection is different from aggression. I understand what you all are talking about but I feel like to often aggression is dismissed as a good thing, when in fact it isn't.
If someone attacks me and I use reasonable force to turn them away that is NOT aggression, it's defense.
If I don't like your attitude and I punch you in the face that's aggression.

Most (if not all) of the dogs I have seen work solely in defense with no active aggression or fight drive have just been nerve bags. Not what I would want in a dog, but to each their own.

 

[cdwoodcox]

I think that it depends on what the dog is being asked to do. Police k9 's/mwd's will need to possess aggression, fight drive, hardness. I believe that German Shepherd were supposed to be just that. Not sport dogs locked in prey. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be good family dogs also, a good German Shepherd should be able to do both.

 

[Sabis mom]

Most (if not all) of the dogs I have seen work solely in defense with no active aggression or fight drive have just been nerve bags. Not what I would want in a dog, but to each their own.

Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression

Aggression is overt, often harmful, social interaction with the intention of inflicting damage or other unpleasantness upon another individual. It may occur either in retaliation or without provocation.

Defense the action of defending from or resisting attack:
"they relied on missiles for the country's defense" · [more]
synonyms: protection · guarding · security · fortification · resistance · [more]

 

[onyx'girl]

controlled aggression... there is a difference and discernment in a thinking dog is something to breed for.

 

[GypsyGhost]

Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression

Aggression is overt, often harmful, social interaction with the intention of inflicting damage or other unpleasantness upon another individual. It may occur either in retaliation or without provocation.

Defense the action of defending from or resisting attack:
"they relied on missiles for the country's defense" · [more]
synonyms: protection · guarding · security · fortification · resistance · [more]

I like how you had to stick in a nice little “sport dog” jab in there. Both of my dogs have aggression. The one that is half DDR and a quarter Czech is super high defense, definitely not a “sport dog”, but he doesn’t have the nerve strength or clear headedness for his defense drive to do me much good. I much prefer my girl’s temperament, as she enjoys the fight when it is appropriate. She is completely clear headed and has no handler aggression, she isn’t a ticking time bomb, she wouldn’t engage without provocation. My “high defense” dog definitely would. We clearly just want different things from the dogs we share our lives with, and that is fine. But I am really confused how someone who has experience handling dogs that actually work sees no value in a dog having aggression. But anyway, this is off topic. Apologies to the OP for the minor thread derailment.

 

[voodoolamb]

Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression

Aggression is overt, often harmful, social interaction with the intention of inflicting damage or other unpleasantness upon another individual. It may occur either in retaliation or without provocation.

Defense the action of defending from or resisting attack:
"they relied on missiles for the country's defense" · [more]
synonyms: protection · guarding · security · fortification · resistance · [more]

I think the problem is that "aggression" is an emotionally charged word. Knee jerk reaction for people to think it is bad.

Instead of using the wikipedia definition of aggression (since that entry is slanted towards explaining aggression in **** sapien I prefer the VCA hospital's definition (since it is slanted towards animal behavior)

Aggression is defined as threats or harmful actions directed toward another individual and can include threat displays, lunging, growling, snarling, snapping, and biting.

In animals, aggressive behaviors are a means of communication. Dogs and cats use aggressive displays, threats and attacks to resolve competitive disputes over resources (territory, food) or to increase their reproductive potential, or to escape threatening situations. "Aggression" describes the behavior, but does not give any information about underlying motives or causes. Aggression can have multiple motivations.

There is appropriate aggression - fending off muggers, or predators trying to eat the sheep. And inappropriate aggression - biting the hand that feeds it or lunging at little old ladies at parks.

I think the big take away here though is that: "Aggression" describes the behavior, but does not give any information about underlying motives or causes.

 

[GypsyGhost]

I think the problem is that "aggression" is an emotionally charged word. Knee jerk reaction for people to think it is bad.

Instead of using the wikipedia definition of aggression (since that entry is slanted towards explaining aggression in **** sapien I prefer the VCA hospital's definition (since it is slanted towards animal behavior)



There is appropriate aggression - fending off muggers, or predators trying to eat the sheep. And inappropriate aggression - biting the hand that feeds it or lunging at little old ladies at parks.

I think the big take away here though is that: "Aggression" describes the behavior, but does not give any information about underlying motives or causes.

Very well stated. Thank you.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

I didn't know they were supposed to be aggressive at all. I knew about aloof, but not aggressive.

SV

The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.

AKC

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

I bolded the part that pretty much sums it up, but I see nothing that calls for aggression

IMO, the standard calls for aggression. How can a GSD work in the capacity of a watchdog or a guardian without aggression? Although the word may not be explicitly stated in the standard, it is implied through the other traits.

 

[Slamdunc]

Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression

Aggression is overt, often harmful, social interaction with the intention of inflicting damage or other unpleasantness upon another individual. It may occur either in retaliation or without provocation.

Defense the action of defending from or resisting attack:
"they relied on missiles for the country's defense" · [more]
synonyms: protection · guarding · security · fortification · resistance · [more]

Often, the definitions we use when describing a dog's temperament or behavior is different than how we define or describe a person's behavior. A good example is the use of the world "civil." If a person is "civil" they are polite, if a dog is described as "civil" it has an entirely different meaning.

Your definition of "aggression" and "defense" are not entirely accurate when it comes to dogs.

 

[Sabis mom]

I like how you had to stick in a nice little “sport dog” jab in there. Both of my dogs have aggression. The one that is half DDR and a quarter Czech is super high defense, definitely not a “sport dog”, but he doesn’t have the nerve strength or clear headedness for his defense drive to do me much good. I much prefer my girl’s temperament, as she enjoys the fight when it is appropriate. She is completely clear headed and has no handler aggression, she isn’t a ticking time bomb, she wouldn’t engage without provocation. My “high defense” dog definitely would. We clearly just want different things from the dogs we share our lives with, and that is fine. But I am really confused how someone who has experience handling dogs that actually work sees no value in a dog having aggression. But anyway, this is off topic. Apologies to the OP for the minor thread derailment.

Not jabbing at anything, apologies if you think so. Rather admitting that I don't know what people want in sport.
As I said the issue is in the definition. What you all call aggression is actually defense, and I don't know what you call defense.
What I started out commenting on was the statement that handler aggression was ok. It isn't.

 

[GypsyGhost]

Not jabbing at anything, apologies if you think so. Rather admitting that I don't know what people want in sport.
As I said the issue is in the definition. What you all call aggression is actually defense, and I don't know what you call defense.
What I started out commenting on was the statement that handler aggression was ok. It isn't.

For the record, I don’t consider handler aggression to be appropriate. Or desirable. And we’ll have to agree to disagree about your definitions of defense and aggression as they pertain to dogs.

 

[thegooseman90]

For me it depends. I would consider it appropriate if my dog defended himself. I wouldn't want a dog who's going to just lay there and allow itself to be beaten to death.

I wouldn't want one who would actively seek me out and bite me. Or one who was so quick to bite that your timing had to be absolutely perfect for a correction.

But in the end I guess we all have our own version of ideal and believe or not some people find that an ideal and desirable trait. Most likely just to stroke their egos like slam said.

 

[GSDguy4EVER]

I think that it depends on what the dog is being asked to do. Police k9 's/mwd's will need to possess aggression, fight drive, hardness. I believe that German Shepherd were supposed to be just that. Not sport dogs locked in prey. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be good family dogs also, a good German Shepherd should be able to do both.

As a breed, I think the GSD is very much a Jack-of-all-trades. No other breed is more versatile in my opinion. But with regards to the individual GSD dog, I think our expectations as owners/handlers are sometimes too high when we expect each dog to be a Jack-of-all-trades. A MWD/K9 that is raised to be an Alpha, in the sense that it does not experience defeat, so as to fight humans and not submit, should not then be expected to willingly become an Omega subordinate to all humans in the family pack.

 

[cliffson1]

I have found in my limited experiences that there are three types of Handler aggressive dogs.....1) ones that are genetically wired for it, 2) ones that the action was created by owner/handler, 3) ones that are a combination of 1 and 2.
There are dogs that have innate handler or dog aggression, it’s in their dna and you are not going to change them...luckily they are rare and should not be bred for.
Then there are dogs that are dominant hard dogs, these dogs in natural environment are destined to compete for pack leadership and become leader of the pack. They will function well in packs with strong leadership but will seek the highest place in the pack they can attain. In a family scenario they often ascend to right under the pack leader in the household. Sooooo, if another member of house tries to get them to do something they don’t want to do or corrects them while handling them, the dog will react. People forget that dogs don’t do democracy when it comes to resisting what they don’t want to do....they voice their dissent with aggression in many occasions. When this happens they are often labeled handler aggressive or just plain aggressive. Put that same dog in experienced family/ handler and problem disappears.
Finally, there are dogs that will not accept an unfair correction from anyone. The problem often is threshold and determination of threshold of unfair....both in the dog’s eyes and in the handler’s.
The last two type dogs are not only more times than not great working dogs, but frankly the type dog a dog needs to face adversity in a job whether it is herding, guarding, protecting, or LE work.

 

[cdwoodcox]

I think that it depends on what the dog is being asked to do. Police k9 's/mwd's will need to possess aggression, fight drive, hardness. I believe that German Shepherd were supposed to be just that. Not sport dogs locked in prey. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be good family dogs also, a good German Shepherd should be able to do both.

As a breed, I think the GSD is very much a Jack-of-all-trades. No other breed is more versatile in my opinion. But with regards to the individual GSD dog, I think our expectations as owners/handlers are sometimes too high when we expect each dog to be a Jack-of-all-trades. A MWD/K9 that is raised to be an Alpha, in the sense that it does not experience defeat, so as to fight humans and not submit, should not then be expected to willingly become an Omega subordinate to all humans in the family pack.

I disagree. A German Shepherd should 100% be able to be fearless and actively engage any threat or target that is asked of it by its handler, whether that threat be man or animal. Guarding behavior or actively seeking out a suspect and engaging. This would constitute the need for aggression. And be aloof to any non-threatening persons or animal. So if a dog is to be expected to be aloof towards non-threatening strangers, why could it also not be a good family dog. I think we have come to expect too little from our German Shepherds. We breed specialist dogs that we call MWD's or LEO's or sport dogs. When the goal should be to breed dogs that could fulfill any of those roles. I get that not every dog even in a perfectly paired breeding will fit these roles. However, most don't even try anymore.
I have seen and trained with dogs that could fit the exact description described above. Fearless, aggression when called for, to use your analogy alpha, believes that it will never lose or submit to a human.yet is very affectionate with the family, aloof towards strangers. Not impossible to achieve. It should be the goal of every breeding.

 

[cliffson1]

I disagree. A German Shepherd should 100% be able to be fearless and actively engage any threat or target that is asked of it by its handler, whether that threat be man or animal. Guarding behavior or actively seeking out a suspect and engaging. This would constitute the need for aggression. And be aloof to any non-threatening persons or animal. So if a dog is to be expected to be aloof towards non-threatening strangers, why could it also not be a good family dog. I think we have come to expect too little from our German Shepherds. We breed specialist dogs that we call MWD's or LEO's or sport dogs. When the goal should be to breed dogs that could fulfill any of those roles. I get that not every dog even in a perfectly paired breeding will fit these roles. However, most don't even try anymore.
I have seen and trained with dogs that could fit the exact description described above. Fearless, aggression when called for, to use your analogy alpha, believes that it will never lose or submit to a human.yet is very affectionate with the family, aloof towards strangers. Not impossible to achieve. It should be the goal of every breeding.

Question, are the dogs you have described in your last paragraph that you have seen, owned, or trained with....the norm or the exception?

 

[cdwoodcox]

I disagree. A German Shepherd should 100% be able to be fearless and actively engage any threat or target that is asked of it by its handler, whether that threat be man or animal. Guarding behavior or actively seeking out a suspect and engaging. This would constitute the need for aggression. And be aloof to any non-threatening persons or animal. So if a dog is to be expected to be aloof towards non-threatening strangers, why could it also not be a good family dog. I think we have come to expect too little from our German Shepherds. We breed specialist dogs that we call MWD's or LEO's or sport dogs. When the goal should be to breed dogs that could fulfill any of those roles. I get that not every dog even in a perfectly paired breeding will fit these roles. However, most don't even try anymore.
I have seen and trained with dogs that could fit the exact description described above. Fearless, aggression when called for, to use your analogy alpha, believes that it will never lose or submit to a human.yet is very affectionate with the family, aloof towards strangers. Not impossible to achieve. It should be the goal of every breeding.

Question, are the dogs you have described in your last paragraph that you have seen, owned, or trained with....the norm or the exception?

Disclaimer, I have only trained at three different clubs. Over one year. So my reference of sport dogs are small. But in my overall experience with dogs. The dogs I have described are the exception. Their purpose or job was determined by their training not the dogs weaknesses.

 

[cdwoodcox]

I should add that when I went down to indy to get some help with my helper work the club I went to was also home to a breeder. His dogs consistently produce dogs like I have described. Along with another breeder that has dogs at my weekly club. I believe their dogs are strong dogs. But overall it seems people don't breed for dogs like I described.

 

[Sabis mom]

I owned a GSD, pedigree unknown, who in all ways but health was the ideal dog. She swung easily between work and home, did her job with ease, displayed no inappropriate aggression, played with the neighborhood kids and was indifferent to strangers. She bit like a gator, could track anything, displayed easy discernment and had incomparable work ethic. Was male dog intolerant would be her only fault.
I owned a dog, purpose bred for work with a solid pedigree, who was aloof to the point of being rude, who with work learned to deal in social settings, who was amazingly obedient, indifferent to neutral dogs but would not out once engaged with an human attacker. He was incapable of differentiating work and home, always alert for trouble. He displayed some handler aggression, in that he would not take what he deemed an unfair correction. But we did notice a difference between tolerance when I had the leash versus a different handler. So possibly just a bonding thing. He was largely DDR breeding.