if you really want to understand genetic civil character then look into Master-breeders , such as Bungalow dogs , Matsch, Umsa, Viper
pedigree example Viper vom Bungalow

reasons for Quaste von Ankenrutt to be a significant producing female Quaste von Ankenrütt

this is a genetic trait lost of prey/play selection

it isn't going to just show up in lines , pet-population - show population -- these things are selected for and maintained. Or not.

 

I saw this yesterday- these dogs are from Belgium?

 

QUOTE "A protective dog is what we all want to some degree. But, a social and protective dog that reacts to threat, while an awesome and ideal dog, may not necessarily be "civil." They are more than likely very protective."


please don't get confused again -- quick answer
a protective dog , good , because we want that , when appropriate -- is REacting to a situation .

A civil dog , who can be social , does NOT have to be sharp or anti-social , will ACT , upon a situation .

When I say "social" this is in line with the GSD breed standard aloof , neutral to strangers character .

just to avoid confusion CarolinaRose you rearranged some of my words and you said

"because I have said many many times that a civil dog
does NOT have unstable nerves.
That is an unstable dog . Working in defense which has two options , fight or flight.

There is no MENTAL STAMINA for pressure ."

Let it be clear then that the last line about lack of mental stamina does NOT apply to the "civil" dog , but to the UNSTABLE DOGS.

Civil dogs tend to have a lot of power in the fight . They don't tire . They don't stress in the fight . This is inherent . It is not trained.

 

"Also I think further defining "civil" as ACTIVE aggression verses RE-active aggression"

CarolinaRose -- lol -- hate to do this to you , but guess what --- re-active aggression is sometimes appropriate , not negative.
It can be the right choice and is not always fear based.

 

Oy!:headbang:

 

CarolinaRose,
There is no need to "get all wrapped around the axle" on this. "Civil" is just one word to describe a dog's temperament. Few GSD's are truly "civil." It is just one trait that is used to describe dogs. I have a young female that is a great sport dog, confident, strong nerves, high prey, nice bite work and definitely not "civil."

You really need to decide on the type of dog that you want and research breeders and find one that breeds what you like.

 

I've read Civil dogs are hard to find. I'm mostly just getting frustrated with how much trouble I'm having understanding this. I supposed understanding will come with experience. I'm also trying to learn what kind of dogs I DON'T want and to avoid.

 

Well, the best thing that you can do is go and see dog's work. Go to all kinds of dog training competitions and talk to people.

Those that have experience can see the traits and temperament in dogs pretty quickly.

We all have our personal preferences. I like to own and work male dogs that are "civil" and high drive. High prey, high defense, strong, clear headed dogs, with lots of aggression. I like this for sport dogs and working dogs. What I like is not for the vast majority of pet owners. For females, I prefer more social, still high drive but outgoing and friendly. That is just what I like, it's not for everyone nor should it be.

Just as some folks would not do well with a high prey drive, some would not do well with a civil dog. Some would not do well with defensive dogs either. For most folks a nice, balanced, low - medium drive dog is what works out best. That is probably what would work best for you, fortunately that is the bulk of the GSD's available today.

 

I think a lot of confusion is still coming down to what some people describe as civil, others describe as fight drive while maintaining civil as the willingness to bite the man without equipment.

I was surprised to see next to nothing posted regarding fight drive in this thread, so I did a search and found this thread with some very knowledgeable and well respected members who seldom post anymore and are sadly missing on this thread as they discussed fight drive.

I found it a very worthwhile reading, and maybe it will clarify the confusion for many.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/123917-fighting-drive-necessary.html

 

Thanks for the link! I'll be adding this to my "to-read" list. It's growing!

 

That was an excellent discussion.

 

It appears that there is a wide range of behavior/temperament that people consider "Civil"...

I had a post that got dumped with the mass edit....which I still do not remember seeing a reason for, have seen major long winded hissy fits going on that were not censored....

When you have sport dogs, and then have dogs who WILL "bring the fight" and yet are social, stable and make excellent companions as well as working dogs, you can just see the difference.

We all have our own take on the terms "defense" "civil" "social" but we should all agree on Stablity and Instability!!!!!

Carmen's comments on pedigree and the Bungalows are similar to what Herr Scheld and I discussed when I showed and Koered my now 12.5 year old female....her comments supported those discussions about Bungalow breedings. The influence of this line and Ex Riedstein were important to understand. He also talked about Lord and Busecker Schloss for bringing the strength back or keeping it.

Lee

 

I think if you concentrate your search on some of the other terms, stable, good nerves, social, that's all stuff you can see right on the surface and if they're not good, you'll know and be able to avoid it. Civil, fight, if the dog is stable, none of that will be a problem for you.

I know there's more to the thread for you, but just with what you mentioned about looking for with a breeder.

 

I think your questions have been answered a few times over in the thread, but it is hard to understand the such a new concept. I'm not saying this as a put down on you in any way - a lot of stuff just goes over our heads when it is new, and after a while, based on more understanding, and personal experience, we start to understand more deeply what is being said.

To confound all this, different people on this thread have slightly different definitions of being civil. There are breeders out there who breed sharp fear-biters, and proudly brag about their dogs being civil and appropriate for Law Enforcement. There are breeders and trainers who will dismiss high-threshold dogs as 'junk' because they don't understand real defense, and like to work dogs in prey drive, which can easily be activated by anyone who swings a sleeve around. If a dog is more civil, and not just looking for a fun game of tug with a sleeve, the trainer will say the dog is no good, etc. (Just to be clear - I'm referring to some of the claims you may come across different websites as you continue your research - not referring to anyone that has posted to this thread - I respect the opinion of all the posters here, even if they don't agree, as they all have a viewpoint shaped by their own experience, which will be different for each person).

So, being protective is different than being civil - Labs have been known to be protective of their owners when the owner is under threat, but they are the last type of dog you would expect to be civil - being civil is a temperament trait that comes from a quiet inner strength and confidence - an over-the-top inner confidence. Again, once you have seen many dogs being worked at different levels in bitework, this is a quality you start to notice.

My belief is that you can have a civil dog that is completely, undeniably, fully, 3000% safe and social - BUT for a newbie, looking for a pet, I would not seek out a breeder that specifically breeds for a civil dog. If I did not know the dogs that this breeder was producing, I might worry that they were too much dog for a newbie, or for someone just looking for a safe, easy-going, companion dog.

I would still look for a breeder who breeds for working qualities, but for a balance, and picks the pups for the owners. In any litter, there will be pups that are more intense and driven, and some that are more laid-back and social. The more laid-back and social dogs will make perfect companion dogs, while the more intense and driven dogs would be a better fit for working and sport homes.

 

SNIP

My belief is that you can have a civil dog that is completely, undeniably, fully, 3000% safe and social - BUT for a newbie, looking for a pet, I would not seek out a breeder that specifically breeds for a civil dog. If I did not know the dogs that this breeder was producing, I might worry that they were too much dog for a newbie, or for someone just looking for a safe, easy-going, companion dog.

I would still look for a breeder who breeds for working qualities, but for a balance, and picks the pups for the owners. In any litter, there will be pups that are more intense and driven, and some that are more laid-back and social. The more laid-back and social dogs will make perfect companion dogs, while the more intense and driven dogs would be a better fit for working and sport homes.

See - this is where I think people are mistaken....a truly balanced dog will be civil as this IS PART OF THE IDEAL of the breed. This is where the protectiveness and discernment come from. What happens is that there are dogs who are civil and NOT stable - NOT balanced, and unless a breeder REALLY understands the pedigree - there may be a pup in a litter who is civil and not balanced! Who - most importantly!!! - is not BIDDABLE and is not bonded and looking to the owner as a leader wanting to please that owner.....add to that type of dog in the pedigree a probablity to thin nerves and you have a dog who is not suitable for a beginner novice or companion home....

A truly balanced dog with drive can excel with beginners if it is biddable and has good nerves.....even if it is civil - the civil may never be seen if it is never in the situation where it is needed.

Of course - this is the way **I** define civil....


Lee

 

I'm not disagreeing with you - but how many breeders actually understand civil? Actually understand balance and discernment, and thresholds? There was a question or two in the thread, asking if a newbie should look for a civil dog when looking for a companion dog.

I did specify that unless I knew the dogs, or the breeder and what they produced, I would not steer a newbie towards a breeder that advertises their dogs as being civil. Newbies should focus more on breeders that work their own dogs, place the dogs themselves after evaluation, and the focus is balance in the dogs, pretty much the way you describe it.

It probably just comes down again to wording - the way you say it is very clear and easy to understand.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you - but how many breeders actually understand civil? Actually understand balance and discernment, and thresholds? There was a question or two in the thread, asking if a newbie should look for a civil dog when looking for a companion dog.

I did specify that unless I knew the dogs, or the breeder and what they produced, I would not steer a newbie towards a breeder that advertises their dogs as being civil. Newbies should focus more on breeders that work their own dogs, place the dogs themselves after evaluation, and the focus is balance in the dogs, pretty much the way you describe it.

It probably just comes down again to wording - the way you say it is very clear and easy to understand.

Thank you.....every pup I breed is a companion first and foremost! The working titles done are a bonus and yes - striven for! Without a personal club and helper usually only 1 or 2 per litter are titled - so even though I have a component in my lines that is loosely defined or recognized here as "civil" - I would not be happy with people believing they were NOT safe as companions!!! I don't advertise them as civil - but as balanced - and as can be seen here - many are in companion homes


Lee

 

I agree, but breeders like yourself are the minority.

What I was trying to avoid is a newbie doing a Google search for civil dogs, and believing they found a 'good' breeder because someone on the internet forum said so. There is waaaayyyyy more to it than that, but people like to pick up on one thing and focus on it, trying to simplify complex concepts.

This thread has done a good job of explaining it all, but still a lot of new info and advanced concepts for a newbie to try and take in.

 

I believe all this to be true.

 

I can understand how researching the lines be imperative in finding what you want. It would be nice to have a thread as a guidance to do this.
Here I go again sorry- Yes there been a few scenarios where in my first wl german shepherd from Belgium- karat could of reacted to an easily perceive threat but did not and reacted in a calm demeanor. (Two example-As screaming real estate lady barging in our house who was clearly nuts even fired from her job as she was extremely whacky but I did not feel threatened- nor was she a true threat or my sister who watched my house who we away on our honeymoon and proceeded to have a loud party at my house, with tenants calling police from the loudness, as my very reliable steady dog just lying in his familiar spot watching the madness) I in my opinion found this threshold was extremely high and his judgement in able to read perceiving threats incredibly amazing. I also know undeniabley he was similar to having a loaded weapon in the house if there a true threat occurred. He was a very calm and quiet dog with much quiet presence and incredibly disciplined dog. The only thing with him was his personal space was very important to him. He was not one for physical affection such as hugging just making it visually noticeable he was comfortable as his huge eyes(they looked liked horses eyes) popped out of his head. Also tolerated grooming. Not sure what this was as we did not have him as a pup is this a common thing in working lines or maybe he was not used to physical pets etc?? At the age of 10-12 he had pretty bad arthritis and we had to keep him in a seperate area - as when he hit that age we had then a 1 year old baby just to avoid possible issues. He is who made me fall in love with the breed.

 

Most breeders don't aim to produce nervy dogs. But if you aim for the civil ideal, you might have a range of traits in a litter. One may be a "prison guard" type dog who is on everything, one may be the perfect mix of civil-social-nerves, one may be a nerve bag.

Even the best lines and most knowledgeable breeders can produce a mixed bag in a litter or breedings Maybe one breeding is just amazing, another that looks good on paper just doesn't go.

Especially when "civil" and "nervy" ARE related, I think. I've even seen the same dog described as nervy and civil by different and experienced trainers.

This is partly why- I think- many dogs in Europe are culled, and really culled, and why there are more quality working dogs available in Europe. Because only the best of a litter breed for real work survive, and thus, nobody can ever point a finger at that breeder for producing a nerve bag (even if they have) because the nerve bag never got out into the world. This also means there are fewer potential duds out there that could be bred. And thus the quality is higher on average.

I could be very wrong, but that is what I've heard and seen. Culling is common particularly in dogs being bred for hard sports and real work- dogs that are "civil".

Because breeding isn't a science and a civil-nervy-protective dogs that takes on challenges happily but considers everyone a challenge, that's not a dog that can be taken on lightly.

 

n

Most breeders don't aim to produce nervy dogs. But if you aim for the civil ideal, you might have a range of traits in a litter. One may be a "prison guard" type dog who is on everything, one may be the perfect mix of civil-social-nerves, one may be a nerve bag.

Even the best lines and most knowledgeable breeders can produce a mixed bag in a litter or breedings Maybe one breeding is just amazing, another that looks good on paper just doesn't go.

Especially when "civil" and "nervy" ARE related, I think. I've even seen the same dog described as nervy and civil by different and experienced trainers.

This is partly why- I think- many dogs in Europe are culled, and really culled, and why there are more quality working dogs available in Europe. Because only the best of a litter breed for real work survive, and thus, nobody can ever point a finger at that breeder for producing a nerve bag (even if they have) because the nerve bag never got out into the world. This also means there are fewer potential duds out there that could be bred. And thus the quality is higher on average.

I could be very wrong, but that is what I've heard and seen. Culling is common particularly in dogs being bred for hard sports and real work- dogs that are "civil".

Because breeding isn't a science and a civil-nervy-protective dogs that takes on challenges happily but considers everyone a challenge, that's not a dog that can be taken on lightly.

Good post but there are dogs out there where the most titled and "impressive" dog can not produce himself but his "lesser" brother out produces the better brother.

I would just like to add from my own personal experience that any dog that I have ever owned with high threshholds were the dogs with bite histories due to waiting too long to spring into action resulting in these bites where my dogs with low to medium threshholds had / have no bite histories because they did / do not wait for the tipping point to make their intentions known even if they expressed that intention just by merely focusing on a potential threat vs ignoring or not perceiving such threat. I think this is a very good point for people seeking to add a GSD as a companion and protector to their home. The higher threshhold dog just might be the higher liability dog.

 

I perceive threshold - as the ability to perceive a real threat- the higher the greater ability to perceive a real threat and ignore anything else in between. Not quick to react as long as there was no clear and present danger. lower threshold more quicker to act on a perceived threat.
How can a dog with a high threshold be a liability.

 

I define threshhold as the dog's ability to perceives a threat and degree to which they respond to that threat.

I had a Rott that would let anybody approach, and was relatively friendly when they did, but he was a force to be reckoned with if the person laid a threatening hand on a family member while ignoring hugs, kisses, and handshakes between people. One should read that to mean that a threat could approach and take your hand or arm and restrain one as long as the threat did not strike, jump, yell, etc., the threat was not perceived as a threat because the dog did not comprehend the difference between somebody touching / holding one's arm vs grasping / refusing to let go of one's arm, unless further action was taken. One can even take this a step further and envision the threat holding a knife or gun to a person so they would not react and doing whatever they wanted such as forcing their way into your car or home and the Rott would have found this behavior acceptable not seeing it as a threat. Often, by the time the Rott perceived a threat, there was no time for posturing or growling, it was an immediate bite.

Alternatively, I have a male now that has much lower threshholds. When he perceives a possible threat, he doesn't wait until a threat has grabbed an arm, he gives them a stare and might emit a quick low growl on approach, effectively de-escalating any threatening situation before any contact.

Personally, I prefer dog number two, one that diffuses the situation before something happens vs one leaping into action after the fact, and that is if you can get dog number one to perceive a threat.

 

Sorry, I meant to say "The part in BLUE", not bold.

 

That is why I like the simple definition I learned long ago, that a civil dog is one that will bite without equipment. They can be unstable, they can be very stable, they may be social (and I am not talking a Golden type social) and they may not be social. Simple, easy and not 14 pages of explanations.

 

This is the probelm when we try to discuss dogs and temperament based on only one aspect or trait of temperament.

If I was to describe a dog that was "unstable," nervy or even very social, civil is not a word that would come to mind.

Some folks are getting hung up on the word "civil" as if that is all there is to a dog's temperament or a needed trait or the absolute when it comes to GSD's. Most people would not want a "civil" dog, just as most people have trouble handling a really high drive dog.

My advice would be to focus on what you want in a dog, what you can handle and live with. Don't be too concerned with a "civil" dog, look for a social, well balanced dog.

Earlier in this thread, a question was posed of what traits do I look for in a LE K-9 prospect? I look for high prey, high defense, social to a point, civil and high hunt drive. I also look for strong nerves, confidence and serious aggression in a balanced drive package. I look at the overall dog and rate each drive on a scale of 1-10. There is no perfect dog, a good dog rates 7's or higher in each phase along with grips, gunfire and environmental testing. While I do test the dog to see how "civil" it is, I also see how social and stable it is. I also test the prey, hunt and defense drives. I then look the dog and how it perfomed, taking all the test and ratings into consideration. After all that, I place the most emphahsis on the dog that impressed me the most overall. In reality, it is the sum of all the traits that make up the dog's temperament and who the dog really is deep down.

 

slamdunc - I like that .