I just spent $1200 on knocked out teeth when my dog hit a tree

Another dog got an $1100 root canal and she has a growth on her leg I need to get checked on

Another dog cost me about $2000 worth of work on perianal fistulas

My daughter's dog cost about $2500 due to brain damage from a head concussion

This is all on top of normal veterinary, food, and other costs.

When you add it all up the purchase price is pretty inconsequential.

 

People who are crazy into dogs -- people on this site, breeders, fanciers, show people, schutzhund people, people who work their dogs in various fields -- they approach buying a dog very different than your average pet-person. They know what a dog, the type and quality they are looking for costs, and they know how to distinguish between decent breeders, and the others.

Everyone who finds sites like this one comes to it at a different mindset. But they ALL can become just as crazy about everything GSD as the rest of us, if they do not run screaming first. For some people, you can tell them that the sky is purple and they will accept that right away. Other people will just think you are nuts and move on. Other people will listen to your reasons and then take a few days or weeks to accept that yes it can be considered purple.

People who spend a lifetime getting dogs from people with free-puppies signs or from the pound, may take a little persuading to understand and adopt the reasons for not buying from breeders who fall into various categories depending on what they do or do not do with their dogs.

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves!!!

 

Hey kids! everyone to their corner. Time out!

 

Tuffloud1,

You can ignore the individual you think is rude.

It is a feature.

If you go to the left and click on their user name, it will bring down a menu.

If you go to View Public Profile, it will take you to their profile

If you click on user lists, the drop down menu has the option Add To Ignore List.

You really cannot force someone off of your cloud here, but you can ignore them.

I think GSDElsa has a lot of good information, but as she said, she is into rescue, and she seems to think you will pick a bad breeder, which rewards these people to continue breeding.

And then she and other rescues end up cleaning up the messes they make.

 

I think GSDElsa has a lot of good information, but as she said, she is into rescue, and she seems to think you will pick a bad breeder, which rewards these people to continue breeding.

And then she and other rescues end up cleaning up the messes they make.

Now Sue. Let's not put words into my mouth. I SPECIFICALLY said if you are not willing and/or able to pay the $$ that REPUTABLE BREEDERS ask to (generally) break even on their expenses, then you should go the route of a REPUTABLE RESCUE before you go buy a dog from a BYB.

I never said anything about "thinking" this person is going to buy a dog from a BYB. But after ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY (or so) posts, this person was STILL looking at BYB's and was STILL having a hard time wrapping their head around spending $1200 on a dog.

What is perhaps the most condescending and rude thing thing in this thread is the fact the some people appear to think it's condescending and rude to suggest a rescue as a "happy medium" to getting an amazing yet affordable dog and supporting a BYB.

Makes my head spin :crazy:

I am pro-reputable breeder and pro-reputable rescue. Please, Sue, don't make this a rescue vs. breeder issue. Reputable breeders do have to charge a certain amount to recoup their costs. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to spend that amount on a dog. But don't think there is any deal for anyone involved by getting away only spending $700 at a BYB.

 

Ok, I just wanted to say something about the subject of telling a poster to go away...

This is a very big forum. LOTS of members posting. Even more members that don't or rarely post. And even more people that read the forum without ever registering. Many of us keep this fact in our mind when we are commenting in threads. We aren't just speaking to the person who started the thread, but everyone who might be reading it or might find it later with the search function.

You're new here, so you might not realize that. I don't mean this in a condescending way, just matter of fact. So unfortunately you're going to get advice here on things you don't ask or don't agree with if its relevant to the topic. Because its not just about you. So, please don't take it personally. If someone is REALLY bothering you, do as Selzer suggested and put them on ignore.

 

Ok, I just wanted to say something about the subject of telling a poster to go away...

This is a very big forum. LOTS of members posting. Even more members that don't or rarely post. And even more people that read the forum without ever registering. Many of us keep this fact in our mind when we are commenting in threads. We aren't just speaking to the person who started the thread, but everyone who might be reading it or might find it later with the search function.

You're new here, so you might not realize that. I don't mean this in a condescending way, just matter of fact. So unfortunately you're going to get advice here on things you don't ask or don't agree with if its relevant to the topic. Because its not just about you. So, please don't take it personally. If someone is REALLY bothering you, do as Selzer suggested and put them on ignore.

I get it. It's all good.

 

What I don't appreciate is the attitude. Treating me like I'm some big bad BYB supporter who is out to ruin the German Shepherd dog breed and support bad things. Like I'm some criminal of the dog world.
-Although it partially has to do with the breed as a whole, it has more to do with you getting a dog that IS going to be good for your family. Bad breeding with no knowledge more often than not creates nervebags who have to be carefully managed lest you end up with a giant lawsuit because your fearful, neurotic dog bit your 7 year old's friend.

I don't want to just write off being able to find a nice family dog for $1000, just because it's $1000 and not $2000. This is just not logical to me. This doesn't mean settling for a dog that's "cheap".
- It has little to do with being "cheap." It has to do with the cost it takes to do business. You will be hard pressed to find a single GSD from a reputable breeder under $1200 at the least. Because it costs a lot of money to title your dogs, care for them properly, and do all those health test. As others have said a few times...with rare exceptions, most working lines are considerably cheaper than showlines. And I also happen to disagree with the people who say they are "high octane" dogs. Almost every litter is going to have "pet quality" puppies in them.

And from shopping around, I see many so called reputable breeders with websites set up are nothing more than a regular household, breeding dogs in their garage and have a couple kennels out in their backyard. They import their dogs from Germany and have all documentation on Title, OFA, temperment, a couple pictures of them showing their dogs at dog shows. They slap their kennel name on their pupps Soandso vom soandso and claim they are an establishment. It just seems like anyone could do this and claim to be more than a back yard breeder. But really, are they more? I realize that some people are way more experienced than others, however breeding dogs doesn't appear to be an exact science. I'm sure that going with someone who is $1000 more may buy a better structured, colored dog for showing. However, I'm not in this to show a dog. I do want a nice family companion that will hopefully be free of major issues. This is kind of stressful
-Nothing you described above meets my criteria for a reputable breeder. And most people would agree with that. I personally will not look at a breeder who does not train and title their own dogs. A rare exception for me would be someone who did it for 30 years and has either turned the reins over to a younger person learning the ropes or someone who has a physical limitation (one example I can think of is a friend of mine who can no longer work her dog in protection because of some very serious knee problems...something like that). Reputable breeders are bringing dogs up themselves. They are keeping dogs back from their litters to train and evaluate themselves. They are NOT buying all their dogs from Germany with titles already on them. Hang around with good GSD's long enough and you will learn that to a certain extent it is an exact science. Of course with an error rate because even the best science has one. Consistently producing great working dogs with strong nerves and level heads is not a coincidence.

 

What I don't appreciate is the attitude. Treating me like I'm some big bad BYB supporter who is out to ruin the German Shepherd dog breed and support bad things. Like I'm some criminal of the dog world.
-Although it partially has to do with the breed as a whole, it has more to do with you getting a dog that IS going to be good for your family. Bad breeding with no knowledge more often than not creates nervebags who have to be carefully managed lest you end up with a giant lawsuit because your fearful, neurotic dog bit your 7 year old's friend.

I don't want to just write off being able to find a nice family dog for $1000, just because it's $1000 and not $2000. This is just not logical to me. This doesn't mean settling for a dog that's "cheap".
- It has little to do with being "cheap." It has to do with the cost it takes to do business. You will be hard pressed to find a single GSD from a reputable breeder under $1200 at the least. Because it costs a lot of money to title your dogs, care for them properly, and do all those health test. As others have said a few times...with rare exceptions, most working lines are considerably cheaper than showlines. And I also happen to disagree with the people who say they are "high octane" dogs. Almost every litter is going to have "pet quality" puppies in them.

And from shopping around, I see many so called reputable breeders with websites set up are nothing more than a regular household, breeding dogs in their garage and have a couple kennels out in their backyard. They import their dogs from Germany and have all documentation on Title, OFA, temperment, a couple pictures of them showing their dogs at dog shows. They slap their kennel name on their pupps Soandso vom soandso and claim they are an establishment. It just seems like anyone could do this and claim to be more than a back yard breeder. But really, are they more? I realize that some people are way more experienced than others, however breeding dogs doesn't appear to be an exact science. I'm sure that going with someone who is $1000 more may buy a better structured, colored dog for showing. However, I'm not in this to show a dog. I do want a nice family companion that will hopefully be free of major issues. This is kind of stressful
-Nothing you described above meets my criteria for a reputable breeder. And most people would agree with that. I personally will not look at a breeder who does not train and title their own dogs. A rare exception for me would be someone who did it for 30 years and has either turned the reins over to a younger person learning the ropes or someone who has a physical limitation (one example I can think of is a friend of mine who can no longer work her dog in protection because of some very serious knee problems...something like that). Reputable breeders are bringing dogs up themselves. They are keeping dogs back from their litters to train and evaluate themselves. They are NOT buying all their dogs from Germany with titles already on them. Hang around with good GSD's long enough and you will learn that to a certain extent it is an exact science. Of course with an error rate because even the best science has one. Consistently producing great working dogs with strong nerves and level heads is not a coincidence.

Yes, and no. I think that sometimes they buy puppies and raise them up. Sometimes they keep their own and raise them up. Sometimes they buy adults. Adults that will augment their lines. I imported a titled bitch, who had had a litter, who has an awesome pedigree, who has hips and elbows done, who has a show rating and koer.

No way do I have the money, cannot beg, borrow, or steal enough to import a puppy from top lines that might wash out due to hips/elbows, temperament, serious fault that I do not want to breed, or simply a bitch that does not produce, like my Heidi. We talk about stacking the deck, well sometimes breeders need to stack the deck too. No, there is NO guarantee that I will ever have another puppy from this bitch, I may never be able to pay off the loan I took on her from the puppies she produces. But with a puppy, there are so many chances that they will wash, that it just makes sense to buy a proven bitch.

If you are buying a dog that you have not seen, other than a photo, you have no clue what the temperament is, then buying a dog that has a koer done and that has titles is helpful.

So immediately discounting a breeder who does not title all their dogs themselves, might seriously limit someone unnecessarily.

********************************************************************************************

Good breeders take their dogs back, so the chances are much slimmer for their dogs to be available in rescues. So the chances are good that whatever rescue dog this man finds MAY have come from the same type of breeder that you are warning the fellow off of. How does that work?

In a previous post you mentioned rescues being proved healthy, are they doing hip and elbow x-rays now?

I do not want to make this breeder vs. rescue, but there are some inconsistencies in your posts.

*************************************************************************************

Be that as it may be. You may be tired of people over and over and over supporting BYBs -- whatever those are defined as this week. But you should not take all of that frustration out on this individual poster. Why not try to give him the benefit of the doubt, believe that he does indeed WANT to do the right thing.

 

It IS stressfull. Maybe it should be.

You are making a purchase that you hope will be fore 12 or more years. It is a big deal.

Somewhere you have to find the medium between idealism and realism. Ideally you would choose a breeder by the temperament, proven abilities, and characteristics of their dogs, and the availability, knowledge, and dedication of the breeder. It is not really about how many things each dog has or has achieved, but the trust you have in the breeder. If you find all of that and find that this breeders pups are 3k to 8k, ideally, that would not matter, you would buy the best match for your family.

At some point you have to also be realistic. Not everyone can or should spend 3K on a dog. And if you find the perfect breeder, they may not view you as the perfect buyer. They may not sell to you. They may want all of their dogs to go to homes where the owners WILL train and title them. They may want their dog to go to a home that will show them.

I think you have to make some lists. What I want in a dog, What I need in a dog. What I want in a breeder, What I require of the breeder, breeder's dogs. What is the best lines for me and my family.

Once you know exactly what you want, and what you are not willing to compramise on, then you can find the breeders that fit that bill. Then you can look a little closer at each and somewhere in there hopefully find the right dog from the right breeder for the right price.

I envy you, you have the opportunity to do this prior to buying your first dog. Some of us had no clue when we bought our first dog. Kind of the difference between learning to swim first and just jumping off the deep end.

 

So, like whats it like to always be right? If you ever fall off that high horse sure do hope you don't get hurt

 

I know you want showlines...they tend to be more expensive(I have no clue as to why!)
Working lines can run about 1000-1500 and you can get a great companion in the WL. They do have an off switch contrary to many opinions and going with a good responsible breeder will get you a great pup for about 1200. That is reasonable, because you will have spent more time saving, therefore more time researching. Even some SL breeders may have pups for the 1200 range, but I would really research what they are breeding, and that they know what they are doing.
I paid 1200 for my pup, and he is the best of my three, stable, good health and a biddable dog that is super easy to train and live with. He is an ugly working line however

 

He is an ugly working line however

Please. Your dog... ugly??? What does a beautiful dog look like then?

 

A red dark/black sable long coat then would fill the bill? :wub: I see so many gorgeous GSD's it is really hard to not love them all....what if they all looked like a breed that has only one cookie cutter 'look'? How boring would that be?
Agree freestep, two of mine are dropping cuz's at my feet while I'm out on the deck...I toss the ball over the roof and type...

 

A red dark/black sable long coat then would fill the bill? :wub: I see so many gorgeous GSD's it is really hard to not love them all....what if they all looked like a breed that has only one cookie cutter 'look'? How boring would that be?

I think a red dark/black sable with a long coat sounds beautiful!

 

I just went back to another thread where we were talking about the prettiness of working lines (or lack thereof according to some people). This is the dog that I meant to post (Medo's daddy--not that I'm biased or anything!).

Seriously, how can anyone think THIS isn't one of the most beautiful looking GSD on the planet? I heart me the sables!
SG (JKL) Ickx von Haus - Klönne - German Shepherd Dog

 

I just went back to another thread where we were talking about the prettiness of working lines (or lack thereof according to some people). This is the dog that I meant to post (Medo's daddy--not that I'm biased or anything!).

Seriously, how can anyone think THIS isn't one of the most beautiful looking GSD on the planet? I heart me the sables!
SG (JKL) Ickx von Haus - Klönne - German Shepherd Dog

Uhm, uh, yeah, well, he isn't my type.

Sorry.

 

Personally, I like the look of working lines best...especially those dark black sables! I really like bicolors, too.

The typical black & red showline dog looks boring to me... so cookie-cutter... and I don't really care for roach backs.

 

Justine, he is stunning, he'd look really good in my backyard with Masi)

Alyalanna>if you like the 'looks' of the working lines, there's a couple breeders I'd check out in WA,,schraderhaus (My masi's mom is there) and Von banach..both have dogs that I would never turn away from my door

I think we all have color/type preferences , I have had black/red-black/tan-bicolor-now a dark sable...I honestly thought I'd never own a sable color, at one point the 'color' just did not appeal to me,,but I went with "brains" this time and must say I am always drawn to a dark dog anyhow,,the sables have definately grown on me,,and I'll say it, I want a black or bicolor boy for my next one but it has to have brains to

 

Alyalanna>if you like the 'looks' of the working lines, there's a couple breeders I'd check out in WA,,schraderhaus (My masi's mom is there) and Von banach..both have dogs that I would never turn away from my door

I think we all have color/type preferences , I have had black/red-black/tan-bicolor-now a dark sable...I honestly thought I'd never own a sable color, at one point the 'color' just did not appeal to me,,but I went with "brains" this time and must say I am always drawn to a dark dog anyhow,,the sables have definately grown on me,,and I'll say it, I want a black or bicolor boy for my next one but it has to have brains to

Thanks! I will definitely keep them in mind. Though I may be coming back for more breeder recommendations since I may not be in Washington after I get my degree.

 

LOL selzer you crack me up

 

I know that everyone's intentions are to "help" the OP right?!....then everyone needs to lighten up just a tad....
To the OP......you can find a nice, sound GSD puppy in the price range of $1000....you will need to contact breeders and ask...
The other thing that you will need to consider.....are you willing to have a puppy "shipped" to you??...because that is also added expense.

 

I think it matters much more the temperament of the adults in the family, the prospective owners, whether or not a rescue adult makes more sense than a good puppy.

Finding a reputable rescue -- even if 95% of them are reputable, you can still run into the less reputable ones, has to be as interesting a process as finding a decent breeder.

This site is all over the place somethimes. You mentioned proven health and temperament from a rescue. Sorry, from a reputable rescue. To prove health, you have to x-ray, you have to check cardiac, thyroid, heartworm, vWd, and maybe some others like CERF, and DM, spine x-ray etc. Neither breeders or rescues can do all of this. Good breeders run health screenings on their breeding animals before breeding them, but not on pups. Rescues do not either. What do rescues do to prove temperament? A good rescue will foster a dog, and get to know if he cannot handle adolescent boys in baseball caps, or cats, or whatever. Do they push them? Do they really know their temperaments? Not to the level of your SAR dogs or Schutzhund dogs, etc. So are they truly really tested. How long are they fostered for? Doesn't it take a month or so sometimes for a dog to relax enough and let show some of the bad habits he may have?

I think getting an adult from a rescue is a gamble too. The dog may do fine in a foster home, because the foster people are dog people and the dog understands the rules and accepts them. With a family that does not have a history with dogs and has little kids, and has a bottomless pit of sympathy for the poor rescue doggy, well it may be that this star-pupil for the month at the foster home, might become Mr. Hyde at the new home.

Dogs live in the present for the most part, and when they go from one type of leadership to another, some of them may not be so "settled."

On the other hand, having a dog that passed it BH, and its SchH and its Koer, and is coming from a breeder that is known and trusted by a good friend and breeder, I think that that is a little less of a gamble in my opinion. We KNOW it has been raised to a certain level in training and it has been evaluated by a number of knowledgeable judges.

So I think that is kind of apples to oranges. I can see both sides to getting an adult dog as opposed to a puppy for a family dog. I think it works out really really good sometimes. I think the dogs are generally coming from the breeders you say are likely to produce nerve bags, and it may not work out sometimes too.

 

Not going to try to one up you, but another perspective, here's my boys sire(for his intensity in protection work he is also a therapy dog):
K-9 Andy - Bojovnika K-9

 

Not going to try to one up you, but another perspective, here's my boys sire(for his intensity in protection work he is also a therapy dog):
K-9 Andy - Bojovnika K-9

Well I guess I'd take a puppy from Andy if you REALLY twisted my arm. (ok, ok...back on topic)

"This is what a German Shepherd should be"
http://andymalyvah.tripod.com/

 

*I'll show ya mine...if ya show me yours..*LOL!
...it's a joke guys...

 

Didn't someone resign today for doing that????

 

is this like "my dogs' better than your dogs" LOL

 

I think it is great that he has what it takes to be both -- that sounds like what a GSD should be like. Odessa could be a therapy dog, but not having seen her bite-work, I have a hard time believing it. She is super stable, airline workers, vets, anyone is fine with her. I have trained a therapy dog, one with the cert, and one that I did therapy with, and Odessa certainly has it in her. I should find somewhere to do bite work with her, just so I know what she is like.

But I think someone else on this thread said it, I am just not into the sable coloring. I like the markings the black and tan dogs have. I had a bi-color -- not Rush, he was a blanket black and tan. I don't want solid colored dogs either. Just a preference. Color is the last consideration, but I love black and red.

 

same silly game! LOL!

Actually...I think all the dogs named are quite nice.

 

Didn't someone resign today for doing that????

Do you think Anthony Wiener is German? Just curious

 

Isn't he "Slobish"??....from the little Island of Slob-n-ass.?

 

 

None of the pictures on pdb will open for me

 

While I continue my search, can anyone recommend a good dog door for an exterior wall?

I want to install it in my great room which leads out to a large side yard - 15 ft by 50 feet or so. The side yard is accessable to the rest of the back yard, which is 1/4 of an acre. I just finished landscaping it, grass, trees, dry creek beds, decomposed granite, mulch, etc.

I have the option of closing the side yard off with a gate. So then maybe when I'm gone after the pup is house trained, he can go in and out but be isolated to the side yard. I've heard of gsd owners having issues with them digging and destroying things.

 

While I continue my search, can anyone recommend a good dog door for an exterior wall?

I want to install it in my great room which leads out to a large side yard - 15 ft by 50 feet or so. The side yard is accessable to the rest of the back yard, which is 1/4 of an acre. I just finished landscaping it, grass, trees, dry creek beds, decomposed granite, mulch, etc.

I have the option of closing the side yard off with a gate. So then maybe when I'm gone after the pup is house trained, he can go in and out but be isolated to the side yard. I've heard of gsd owners having issues with them digging and destroying things.

You may want to post separately in the equipment section on that - not everyone reads every post so different folks may look at that question