I don't think any of these more expensive breeders you listed would be what you call "world renowned" - they are still in the class of hobby breeders - most good breeders do this for the love of the breed and are lucky to break even.

I have a friend that has put together two breedings of two great dogs. Guess what one female had two pups another shows two on ultrasound. Take away the cost of the stud fee and the puppy costs and she is out money by the time she sells the pups. Another friend I think spent 2K for Artificial Insemination with frozen semen from a great stud. . The one with the AI got pyometra had to be spayed. No pups. Then it costs them a lot of time and money to title said breeding stock. There are some folks with lots of females that are making money at this but the average hobby breeder with a few breeding females ..... nah.....maybe enough to cover their expenses........can't be not more, not for what the pups cost.

The reality is ANY puppy is somewhat of a gamble. The more thought and effort that goes into the breeding upfront the less the risk that the puppy you get is going to have a heartbreaking problem.

As others have said - there is always rescue. Sometimes breeders will also rehome (for a price) retired breeding females into a good home to make room for more. Usually require them to be spayed but that may be an option

---

You can also check out working lines. Not going to get the same look of the black and red dog, but there is sometimes a more sedate one in the litter. Dont take that to mean couch potato. My 8 year old working line dogs are still crazy wild things. If I just put them outside without making sure they get mental and physical stimulation they become a backyard wrecking crew.

 

Let me just say one more thing. My boyfriend wanted an english bulldog really bad. So I started doing research for him. I already knew the breed is a mess and BYB have created even more of a mess of them. So I started bring my research to him. He realized that we could spend 3k+ for a dog that would still most likely have health problems of some sort. The best breeders cost in upwards of 5k for a dog. Once I brought all the facts to him about the breed and that reputable breeders offer a guarantee their dog will LIVE past two year (I think it was two maybe longer)! Because apparently they can just up and die! He said forget it! I wanted a GSD and started looking. It took me no lie, almost a year to find a breeder I liked that had they type of GSD I was looking for. Not to mention I was researching my A off about the breed, health, training, etc. I refused to pay more than $1500 for a dog and that was even a stretch. I would have paid more for him though, now that I have him. They are worth every penny. :wub:

I did find a breeder that I liked but they had only females in the litter. So I decided to wait, I wanted a male. If it is meant to be it will be, it is your decision to make. :hug:

 

I know I am playing devil's advocate here, but what is meant by "improve the breed"? I think the various lines of dogs have "improved the breed" so much that we have to ask the question on whether the founder of the breed would be horrified. I like the idea more of maintain the breed/breed for the future, and the breeder has some question marks there.

The OP is not wanting to spend an arm and a leg for a pup. He is not willing to pay for all the things that you people are requiring of a breeder. This breeder seems like she has some nice lines, and is beginning to get her ducks lined up. She is not there yet. But then, the OP does not want to spend the money for a pup from a breeder who does it ALL.

So the OP has a choice. They can Pass on this puppy and save more money and buy a puppy down the road from a board-approved breeder (BTW, this board does NOT approve breeders as far as I know, sometimes the membership gives recommendations). They can throw caution to the wind and buy the puppy. Or they can go to a few rescues and get a puppy or a dog that way.

I am not going to spend my dollars on a breeder that does not do what I think is important. But, my plans for a pup might be very different from the OPs.

Is this place close enough to you to visit. Can you see how the puppies are raised, can you see the dam?

If I was buying, I would want the hips done on the dam. She cannot do them before the pups are weaned. She is swelled and loose from having puppies. Things have to tighten up to get a good reading. If I was buying for a pure pet, well, I might go for it.

 

I know I am playing devil's advocate here, but what is meant by "improve the breed"? I think the various lines of dogs have "improved the breed" so much that we have to ask the question on whether the founder of the breed would be horrified. I like the idea more of maintain the breed/breed for the future, and the breeder has some question marks there.

You could say "maintain the breed", but that seems to imply breeding for the sake of breeding... the idea is to start with good breedworthy dogs, and improve upon what faults they may have (no dog is perfect) by selecting a breeding partner that is strong in the areas your dog is weak. This is where knowledgable pedigree research comes into play, and it takes a dedicated person to do this. Most BYB's just match up their dog with a nice dog nearby, with no thought to what the bloodlines may carry or how they may combine.

If I was buying, I would want the hips done on the dam. She cannot do them before the pups are weaned. She is swelled and loose from having puppies. Things have to tighten up to get a good reading. If I was buying for a pure pet, well, I might go for it.

Hip dysplasia is just as heartbreaking in a pet as it is in a working dog. Ask me how I know.

 

You could say "maintain the breed", but that seems to imply breeding for the sake of breeding... the idea is to start with good breedworthy dogs, and improve upon what faults they may have (no dog is perfect) by selecting a breeding partner that is strong in the areas your dog is weak. This is where knowledgable pedigree research comes into play, and it takes a dedicated person to do this. Most BYB's just match up their dog with a nice dog nearby, with no thought to what the bloodlines may carry or how they may combine.



Hip dysplasia is just as heartbreaking in a pet as it is in a working dog. Ask me how I know.

No "improve the breed" implies that the breed/breed standard is not good enough, and you want your dogs to stand out -- higher drive, steeper slope, laid back, over the top, larger, stronger, no-shed.

What I think "improves" the breed, another believes murders the breed. What I mean by maintain the breed, is to breed dogs to be as close as possible to the standard. There is still ways to discern differently what the standard says, but we should at least be breeding to the standard. And that is not improving the breed, but improving upon our lines, breeding for the future and adding dogs that will improve this characteristic or that, but always trying to meet what is listed in the standard.

A dog with mild hip dysplasia, even moderate hip dysplasia, sometimes even chronic hip dysplasia may show no symptoms at all and never require surgery. In another dog it could be crippling.

The surgeons will suggest surgery no doubt. But I do not know that a dog will not have just as many if not more problems with surgery than if they are provided good supplements, kept at their ideal weight, and exercised properly. I think it depends on the individual dog, but also on the type of surgery, and perhaps on the surgeon.

While it is not desireable, it is not a death sentence or even a sentence of a life of pain.

But working dogs, police dogs, SAR dogs, it is the end of those prospects, if the dogs are lucky they become pets. And for breeding dogs. Well, of course you would not want to breed a dysplastic dog. You might have to make hard decisions on other animals of the same/related lines.

If you are buying a breeding dog -- those hip certs should be in place. If you are buying a pet dog, well, you can gamble a little more if you are not going int schutzhund, agility, SAR, police, military. But unless you buy a dog with certified hips, it is a gamble no matter where you buy the puppy. Your odds might be better, that's all.

 

I speak from experience. My husband surprised us with a pup that a co-workers niece bred. 1st time breeding for the dam and no papers/health tests or titles(4-h doesn't count, right?) and she has an unstable temperament, and an allergy sufferer.
I couldn't disappoint my husband after he was so proud of the "research" he did to surprise us, but I sure wish I could have backed out!
For my next pup I did slow research and couldn't be happier! It pays to pay and get the best you can find, and my pup was only $1200, not 2 grand.

 

Oh, people DO breed for a living. But you probably want to stay far away from those.

As has been mentioned, HD is a complex thing, and you have to look at the sire and the dam, and how the dogs in the lines produce, and still, you might find that a particular combination has problems producing clear hips. I think there are worst things to worry about. Hip dysplasia -- there are options and degrees and certainly no guarantee that your dog will have any problem.

But you have it wrong. The best breeder CANNOT prevent your dog from having a heart breaking issue. These are living, breathing creatures. About the only thing we CAN GUARANTEE is that, barring accidental death, you dog WILL have something, some type of disease/illness that will take him. We would all hope that they have a peaceful death at age 14, but that is certainly the exception rather than the rule.

We support the better breeders because they are investing in the dogs, they are fighting genetic diseases, they are breeding for temperament, they are involved in the dog world, they are knowledgeable about dog-related issues, they treat their dogs good. That is the type of breeder we want to support.

 

I have one of those severly dysplastic SAR dogs. I knew the litter was put together with solid hip history and half the litter was bad. Fortunately she is not suffering but she is not working either as I returned her on the spot.

That narrows the puppy risk I can take which is why I am at least looking for a puppy with prelims and some good idea of its basic temerament and drives. I have one 8 year old dysplastic. The 8 year old OFA good I bought as a 2 year old to replace her and room for one more. The dysplastic dog is living a fine life as an active pet.

I don't even expect a warranty on hips - I mean - once it happens you are attached to the dog and it is the rare person who will return it. I just want a breeder to do due diligence and try to prevent that among other things.

 

I have one of those severly dysplastic SAR dogs. I knew the litter was put together with solid hip history and half the litter was bad. Fortunately she is not suffering but she is not working either as I returned her on the spot.

That narrows the puppy risk I can take which is why I am at least looking for a puppy with prelims and some good idea of its basic temerament and drives. I have one 8 year old dysplastic. The 8 year old OFA good I bought as a 2 year old to replace her and room for one more. The dysplastic dog is living a fine life as an active pet.

I don't even expect a warranty on hips - I mean - once it happens you are attached to the dog and it is the rare person who will return it. I just want a breeder to do due diligence and try to prevent that among other things.

OMG - Eeek when you get 3 hours of sleep the night before you say stupid things. I did NOT return my dysplastic dog, I retired her. She is sitting in the room with me now and is a beloved family pet. I am concerned about dysplasia more from the standpoint of a working dog subjected to serious stresses - yes - there are plenty of other issues in the breed to be concerned about.

 

The OP is putting a lot of focus on hips...There are worse things to be concerned about..
Aggression (the good, the bad & the ugly) - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Health Issues - German Shepherd Dog Forums

 

Tuff..you have received quite a bit of good advice from what I've read on this thread. You are trying to do your homework so keep going in the same direction. I've seen some comments about what a hefty price breeders are asking but you need to look at what they are paying to bring those litters into the world.

Give the vet a call and find out what it costs for an ultrasound and all the other costs associated with a litter. Call some trainers and find out how much time & money they spend on training, trialing and showing their dogs. And that includes even knowing if they will x-ray out, have all of their teeth and anything else you want to make sure of before you even THINK about breeding.

Once you know how much all of that costs then maybe..just maybe you'll see the majority of breeders who are doing this for the breed are doing it for love. There are some out there making money but they are not there for long. It is a living breathing animal and the ones doing it right will be there for advice for the life of your dog.

I looked for a dog at one point for 3 yrs. I didnt go to numerous breeders. I went to dog events, shows, trials and training to learn. I saw dogs & puppies I liked and I would ask the breeding. When I was ready for my next dog I knew which lines I wanted by that time. I was very happy the breeder was someone I liked the way they did their job. I then waited 1.5 yrs for the right chance at a youngster. This had nothing to do with a competition dog but to take my best chance at the best fit for the rest of this dog's life. Once it's mine it's mine for life.

Another option I would strongly suggest is rescue. There is a very good rescue in Northern California. Just search on German Shepherd Dog Rescue of Northern California.
Just some more thoughts for you.
Micky

 

LOL, I actually figured that out a moment ago when I saw you said "I have" present tense, it could not be that you returned her.

I wouldn't have been fussed about you returning her either though. I mean, you were buying her to train for search and rescue, and that would not work out, keeping an extra dog, one that might have problems, but would still need training and socializing, etc. I could understand weighing all the options, returning the one dog -- it is a lot better reason than returning the pup because she doesn't fit in with your camping schedule this year. But after we raise them for just a little while, it is hard to let them go. If only someone would offer me $230,000 for one of my maniacs...

 

I guess it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you really want to go with this whole 'dog' thing. Keep in mind that your purchase decision has absolutely no affect on my life, so at the end of the day, do what you feel you should to do with the information that's been provided. I'll do my part in paying it forward by passing along what I would consider to be good information, just as I have received in the past.

I like to look at breeders as a game of odds. Odds are that by going with a reputable breeder, you'll have a better chance of obtaining what you want in your next family pet. They screen their dogs for health clearances, they back up their claims of talent and ability with titles or accomplishments, and typically possess a strong knowledge base on the temperament in that particular lineage. Buying a good quality dog is by no mean a guarantee that the dog will turn out exactly how you planned (keep in mind that life is full of variability). I do think that when it comes down to it, you set yourself up with better odds when going to a reputable breeder than finding that easy puppy from the newspaper. Its a process, one that you will get out what you put in. If you want a family dog with sound health and a good temperament, don't cheat yourself out of getting exactly what you expect. Don't settle for less because it seems easier (maybe I should make this a life quote?). It takes a lot of time and effort to seek out and find the things you desire, but if you go above and beyond what most would put out, it will no doubt feel a whole lot more satisfactory in the end.

My story:
I promised myself that my first german shepherd dog would -for sure- be from a proven and reputable breeder so that I could get all those great qualities I love about the breed in my new puppy. Three years ago, as I was getting ready to narrow down my puppys breeder, a 4 month old purebred German shepherd puppy fell into my lap at a local animal shelter (man, I won't even go there on how excited I was at the $ I saved in the adoption fee). Hey, she came with papers too Now let me say, this dog has GOT to be one of the best looking gsds i've ever seen (for my tastes anyways) but holy crap has she turned out to be an emotional nightmare as an adult. I've got a psychology B.S., so naturally I take the nurture side of the debate. When I got my first GSD, I optimistically thought to myself that I could develop her into that idealistic, great, classic family dog that everyone envisions (you know, protective, stable, easy to socialize with, intelligent, obedient, etc etc).

Actually, no, shes nowhere close to being THAT dog. We did far more right than wrong with her, and with little to no improvement three years in, i'm now convinced she has this genetic hold of neurosis and weak nerves that going to be impossible to overcome. I've tried every fun socialization trick in the book and this dog still quivers and has a friggan nervous breakdown anytime shes even in the general vicinity of an obedience or socialization class. I tracked down her breeder a few months into owning her and again, great people with good intentions of breeding their nice looking dogs for family pets. Unfortunately in this instance, the result of their ignorance on good breeding practices was an epic failure in temperament. Shes very dog aggressive and reactive to any stranger she comes across. She is a total CLOWN with me and my close friends/ family, however is a major liability around anyone else. It doesn't make me feel good that my stupid dog lunged at a five year old for running past us on a walk last week. Guess whos got that nutbag living with her for the next 10+ years

. I'll be honest (everyone be nice), I often regret getting this dog. Don't get me wrong, I love her and shes a fantastic house pet. Shes apart of my family now and of course that won't ever change. Unfortunately, though, we got caught up in the moment, made an impulse acquire, and in the end, ended up with something we really didn't want.

Now, fast forward three years and I took another initiative towards finding that dog I originally sought out. I had a list of things I wanted in a pup and took my time to research the breeders I felt could provide me with what I was looking for. Sure, I flip flopped back and forth between WHAT it was that I wanted, because I knew I didn't need the Ferrari of pedigree dogs (as everyone was insisting) but I also didn't want to settle for some crappy backyard bred dog again. I found a breeder, by chance, who really isn't one of those 'big names' but had great dogs and most importantly, a super solid knowledge base. He was able to effectively articulate WHY he did that particular breeding and WHAT he felt it would produce. He wasn't in it for a quick buck, but rather had a genuine vested interest in developing and enhancing the german shepherd breed as a whole. Never did he try to sell his dogs, but rather, his dogs sold me. (BIG difference, one that you can only experience to understand). I drove a 14 hour round trip and almost vomited when I handed over 1500$ in cash for a DOG. Now that i've got her, I would have paid 15,000$ for her if I had to do it again. There's just no comparison between her and just about every other puppy i've ever come in contact with. Truthfully. Shes a baby at this point and even still, she walks into every new situation like she owns the place (super solid nerve base). Gun shots, firecrackers, sirens, and large crowds; this dog has NO hesitation whatsoever. At this point, I can't even begin to emphasize just HOW important and influential genetics have been on the temperament outcome of my two contrasting dogs. The puppy's temperament is becoming everything I had ever hoped for and though I'm loving the puppy stage, I can't wait for her to grow older and see what she becomes as an adult.

 

I guess it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you really want to go with this whole 'dog' thing. Keep in mind that your purchase decision has absolutely no affect on my life, so at the end of the day, do what you feel you should to do with the information that's been provided. I'll do my part in paying it forward by passing along what I would consider to be good information, just as I have received in the past.

I like to look at breeders as a game of odds. Odds are that by going with a reputable breeder, you'll have a better chance of obtaining what you want in your next family pet. They screen their dogs for health clearances, they back up their claims of talent and ability with titles or accomplishments, and typically possess a strong knowledge base on the temperament in that particular lineage. Buying a good quality dog is by no mean a guarantee that the dog will turn out exactly how you planned (keep in mind that life is full of variability). I do think that when it comes down to it, you set yourself up with better odds when going to a reputable breeder than finding that easy puppy from the newspaper. Its a process, one that you will get out what you put in. If you want a family dog with sound health and a good temperament, don't cheat yourself out of getting exactly what you expect. Don't settle for less because it seems easier (maybe I should make this a life quote?). It takes a lot of time and effort to seek out and find the things you desire, but if you go above and beyond what most would put out, it will no doubt feel a whole lot more satisfactory in the end.

My story:
I promised myself that my first german shepherd dog would -for sure- be from a proven and reputable breeder so that I could get all those great qualities I love about the breed in my new puppy. Three years ago, as I was getting ready to narrow down my puppys breeder, a 4 month old purebred German shepherd puppy fell into my lap at a local animal shelter (man, I won't even go there on how excited I was at the $ I saved in the adoption fee). Hey, she came with papers too Now let me say, this dog has GOT to be one of the best looking gsds i've ever seen (for my tastes anyways) but holy crap has she turned out to be an emotional nightmare as an adult. I've got a psychology B.S., so naturally I take the nurture side of the debate. When I got my first GSD, I optimistically thought to myself that I could develop her into that idealistic, great, classic family dog that everyone envisions (you know, protective, stable, easy to socialize with, intelligent, obedient, etc etc).

Actually, no, shes nowhere close to being THAT dog. We did far more right than wrong with her, and with little to no improvement three years in, i'm now convinced she has this genetic hold of neurosis and weak nerves that going to be impossible to overcome. I've tried every fun socialization trick in the book and this dog still quivers and has a friggan nervous breakdown anytime shes even in the general vicinity of an obedience or socialization class. I tracked down her breeder a few months into owning her and again, great people with good intentions of breeding their nice looking dogs for family pets. Unfortunately in this instance, the result of their ignorance on good breeding practices was an epic failure in temperament. Shes very dog aggressive and reactive to any stranger she comes across. She is a total CLOWN with me and my close friends/ family, however is a major liability around anyone else. It doesn't make me feel good that my stupid dog lunged at a five year old for running past us on a walk last week. Guess whos got that nutbag living with her for the next 10+ years

. I'll be honest (everyone be nice), I often regret getting this dog. Don't get me wrong, I love her and shes a fantastic house pet. Shes apart of my family now and of course that won't ever change. Unfortunately, though, we got caught up in the moment, made an impulse acquire, and in the end, ended up with something we really didn't want.

Now, fast forward three years and I took another initiative towards finding that dog I originally sought out. I had a list of things I wanted in a pup and took my time to research the breeders I felt could provide me with what I was looking for. Sure, I flip flopped back and forth between WHAT it was that I wanted, because I knew I didn't need the Ferrari of pedigree dogs (as everyone was insisting) but I also didn't want to settle for some crappy backyard bred dog again. I found a breeder, by chance, who really isn't one of those 'big names' but had great dogs and most importantly, a super solid knowledge base. He was able to effectively articulate WHY he did that particular breeding and WHAT he felt it would produce. He wasn't in it for a quick buck, but rather had a genuine vested interest in developing and enhancing the german shepherd breed as a whole. Never did he try to sell his dogs, but rather, his dogs sold me. (BIG difference, one that you can only experience to understand). I drove a 14 hour round trip and almost vomited when I handed over 1500$ in cash for a DOG. Now that i've got her, I would have paid 15,000$ for her if I had to do it again. There's just no comparison between her and just about every other puppy i've ever come in contact with. Truthfully. Shes a baby at this point and even still, she walks into every new situation like she owns the place (super solid nerve base). Gun shots, firecrackers, sirens, and large crowds; this dog has NO hesitation whatsoever. At this point, I can't even begin to emphasize just HOW important and influential genetics have been on the temperament outcome of my two contrasting dogs. The puppy's temperament is becoming everything I had ever hoped for and though I'm loving the puppy stage, I can't wait for her to grow older and see what she becomes as an adult.

Thank you very much for taking the time to share this. This helps me a great deal.:thumbup:

 

Abakerrr, that's an excellent post.

Many breeders considered to be byb are very much like the 2nd breeder you described & produce sound, stable, healthy, long lived, discerning GSD that make outstanding companions, therapy & service dogs.

When seeking a dog it's essential to know exactly what you want & need. Consider breeders that consistently produce such dogs. Eliminate from consideration any that don't. A thorough knowledge of dogs, the breed itself & sound breeding is essential in a breed as plagued with numerous health & temperament problems as the GSD.

 

Tell me what you think of this dog based soley on appearance.

 

Based soley on appareance... Canis lupus familiaris, 4 legs, a tail. The first is a male, the second has 2 eyes and 2 ears.

 

They are the same dog. You can't tell me anything about his build in the first picture?

 

I think the response was because neither picture is suited to judge conformation. You need a properly stacked photo to critique.

 

abakerrr story is so true. As I stated in my previous post I had the so called cheap dog who bite 2 of our friends. We were lucky on both counts. Just remember that you must live with this dog for the rest of its life! All of my dogs are pets but with dog number 1 I could not take her any where, when company came she had to be locked up. We had to live this way for 13 years! We chose her and we loved her so we would never dump her.

Fast forward the next 3 dogs (2 I have now) can go any where, meet anyone and I never worry. THAT is what a pet is, one you can share your live with and not lock up. I do not do SCH or any sport but I do work with my dogs and play and go places. You do not need a world class breeder just one that knows what they are doing and doing it to improve the breed. You do get what you pay for, if your already willing to spend $700 why not add a few hundred to that, it is soooooo worth it!

Not that this means much but I consider the lady behind me a BYB. She has 2 female bulldogs, shows them so they can be titled and worth more money (her words). She has now inseminated one of them and the girls are maybe 17 months old. She is a nice person but from what I see and hear from her she is in this for money not to improve the breed! Get my picture?

 

Tell me what you think of this dog based soley on appearance.

I'm picky about feet, I don't like the feet in the dog in the standing shot....tighter ones are nicer, IMO.

 

Have you not learned anything from this thread?

You're still hunting for a bargain. Bargains don't exist in the dog world unless you happen to convince a reputable breeder to let you adopt one of the retiring dogs.

Really, if it's THAT hard to see yourself spending $1200+ on a dog...really, go for the adoption of an adult with proven health and temperment. I am not overly pro breeder or pro rescue. I do not and can not fathom why someone would rather go the route of the breeders you have listed above rather than a "sure thing."

You've been given many examples of why these "bargain" BYB's are not a good idea. Stop going down that path. I could give you many more from fostering. IMO, there are two routes to do to get a great dog: puppy or adult from a REPUTABLE BREEDER or an adult rescue from a REPUTABLE RESCUE. Puppies are always a crapshoot. But you are stacking the odds soo much in your favor in health and temperment by getting one from a good (READ: ethical and knows what they are doing!) breeder. And adult rescue who has been in a foster home: you know what you are getting. You can do xrays. You can test the temperment in whatever circumstances you want. It's generally a sure thing.

But in this case...if you can't find yourself willing to pay the costs of buying from a reputable breeder, than you need to go the route of a reputable rescue. Don't put yourself through getting a dog from a BYB.

 

Really, if it's THAT hard to see yourself spending $1200+ on a dog...really, go for the adoption of an adult with proven health and temperment.

:thumbup:

Puppies are always a crapshoot. But you are stacking the odds soo much in your favor in health and temperment by getting one from a good (READ: ethical and knows what they are doing!) breeder. And adult rescue who has been in a foster home: you know what you are getting. You can do xrays. You can test the temperment in whatever circumstances you want. It's generally a sure thing.

:thumbup:

But in this case...if you can't find yourself willing to pay the costs of buying from a reputable breeder, than you need to go the route of a reputable rescue. Don't put yourself through getting a dog from a BYB.

:thumbup:

 

The pictures above are really not easy to judge. Bad pigment isn't going to change no matter how he stands. Looks like he stands "east west." Back looks horribly roached--but could jsut be the picture. Muzzle is short and bulky. Flat footed.

 

Really, I wasn't thinking about if the dog was stacked or not, just because, being honest, conformation never crossed my mind. at the moment of choosing a dog, it is not something I look on a dog until I've seen things that are more important to me and those thing I can't see in a picture.

Conformation is important, but if you don't want to show, but an active pet to share happy moments in family, personally, conformation wouldn't be my first priority, not even second or third.

 

I agree with that-although someday I want to show-so that doesn't make a lot of sense-Go meet the dog-temperment to me is the most important thing

 

I do not see a bad roach, but the slope seems steep for this dog. His stack is poor -- front legs not set straight, but I agree a stack will not help the washed out pigment. He is a young dog I think, he may just not have filled out yet, but this picture does not give him any depth in his chest. Could be weak pasterns and poor feet. Also I see little angulation in the front.

The dog is definitely a purebred GSD, looks German Showline to me, I think he has a nice head, good ear set and size, eyes look good, muzzle short and dark.

The picture only tells me why I would not want to breed to him from a conformation point of view. If his temperament is good, I think he would make a fine pet and you would probably have people stopping and admiring him.

 

I do not see a bad roach, but the slope seems steep for this dog. His stack is poor -- front legs not set straight, but I agree a stack will not help the washed out pigment. He is a young dog I think, he may just not have filled out yet, but this picture does not give him any depth in his chest. Could be weak pasterns and poor feet. Also I see little angulation in the front.

The dog is definitely a purebred GSD, looks German Showline to me, I think he has a nice head, good ear set and size, eyes look good, muzzle short and dark.

The picture only tells me why I would not want to breed to him from a conformation point of view. If his temperament is good, I think he would make a fine pet and you would probably have people stopping and admiring him.

Thank you, an actual answer to my question.

 

Ok look - it is obvious the picture is a sideways shot of the same dog - same fence, same gravel - posted together; if is is not you should clarify. And that bottom dog was to be the father of the next litter.

Maybe some are being a bit condescending but you ask for advice you get advice. Take what you want and throw away the rest and don't take it personally. I think many of us dog folks are sometimes lacking in social graces - plus it is the internet.

I would rather someone care enough to hit me over the head with a 2 by 4 if I was about to make a 14 year mistake than be simply polite and not say at all.

Many of us are working line folks and do not "appreciate" the showline structure and that will also color our own perceptions.

Have you been to LInda Shaw's site? That is very good on structure and color-This reference is an excellent study for such things.
The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd Dog

And then this should be required reading IMO for GSD owners
http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements%20of%20Temperament.pdf

 

Thought I would chime in. Though I have no personal experience with this breeder, I have heard good things about them in the past and thought I might pass the word along. I believe they are just outside of Palo Alto, CA. If they don't have what you're looking for, it might not hurt ask for their help to point you in the right direction.

Witmer-Tyson Imports - German Shepherds, Law Enforcement Training, and Equipment

Good luck!

 

Yes it is disheartening. Not everyone feels they can spend $1000 and up for a dog. Not everyone who sells dogs for $1000 and up would sell to just anyone.

"Go for a rescue" is the chant. People have heard such bad stories about people who got their dogs from pounds or rescues, that some simply do not want to go that route. Others have heard such horrible stories about getting approved by a rescue, that they do not even want to try. Many do not think they can get a puppy from a rescue, and they would feel more comfortable with a dog that they raise with their children. And some rescues have some criteria that might turn down perfectly good homes, and some people know they will not pass the criteria for good reason.

Less than stellar breeders who sell cheap dogs, do not cover all the bases, and ask fewer questions will sell to these people.

It is a problem I do not have a solution for. It is not breeders fault for selling pups for what they are worth. It is not the rescues fault for wanting to place dogs in forever homes.

My plea to the people insisting on buying from questionable breeders is to at least see how the dam and if possible the sire are housed, and what their temperaments are. If they have good temperaments, the pups will probably make ok pets. If they have problems down the line, well all dogs have problems down the line, I just hope the people who cannot afford the puppy can afford insurance or will put money in savings or keep a cc open to cover emergencies.

These people are not really impacting the hard core show-line people or the hard core working line people. I would think that they are more likely to effect the numbers needing to be rescued, but have no statistics on that.

It just amazes me that the vast majority who cannot possibly pay 1200-1500 dollars for a dog, have no problem forking over $50/month for cable tv, $50/carton for smokes, $50 for dinner out for two, $2000 for a trip to disneyland that will be over and done with in 3-7 days, with nothing to show for it, but a roll of film. Do people even know what a roll of film is anymore???

 

It just amazes me that the vast majority who cannot possibly pay 1200-1500 dollars for a dog, have no problem forking over $50/month for cable tv, $50/carton for smokes, $50 for dinner out for two, $2000 for a trip to disneyland that will be over and done with in 3-7 days, with nothing to show for it, but a roll of film. Do people even know what a roll of film is anymore???

Not saying the OP is in this category, but it's true--people will find a way to afford what is important to them. Many people will choke at the idea of spending thousands of dollars on a mere DOG, but when it's important to you, and you take it very seriously, you simply make it happen.

And yes, I know what a roll of film is! I was very happy when I made the move to all-digital, all those rolls of film are cumbersome and take up an awful lot of space.

 

And the reality is - Showline Dogs are priced higher. Not sure why but they are.