Have both parents had their hips and elbows x-rayed?

Without that, I'd say no and that's before even getting into anything else.

 

I'm currently interested in this GSD puppy.

The mom doesn't have papers, the dad does. Both parents are owned by the breeder. Both parents are extremely friendly and unintrusive.

Can someone with experience take a look at the parents and the puppy and let me know of any issues that stand out? Thanks for any help!

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Sorry, I can't tell you anything from that picture. It looks like a GSD.

Issue right now is the mom doesn't have papers. Do either dogs have health certifications? At least OFA or Penn hip?

Here is a great thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

 

I meant to post pictures directly on the page, not the link.

Here they are -

 

With this breed, I wouldn't even glance at a pup without parents cleared for hips. I am not that brave.

If you are going to buy from a breeder that has dogs with no papers, you loose all the benefits of buying from a breeder and the knowledge that comes with the study of the pedigrees. In that case, if I were you, I'd adopt and save my money for a better cause.

 

Do you want a cute puppy or a healthy stable dog?

2 great articles..
Getting a Dog, part IV Dogs for Defense K-9

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)

and this link again

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


I'm not a breeder but can someone tell me if it is healthy or normal for a mom nursing dogs to have ribs showing? I've always seen moms kept a little plump at this time

 

Well, all puppies are cute. I want the puppy to turn out health and sound as an adult. Both parents seem healthy. I don't have 1000 dollars to spend on a dog. These people are asking 500.

I didn't ask if they have had the parents hips x-rayed. I will but I'm guessing they haven't. This is the first time they've bread the dogs and I don't think it is something they will be doing a lot of in the future.

What are the odds of a gsd developing hip problems?

 

Hip Dysplasia is very common in the breed. This dog will be with you 12+ years hopefully. Do you really want to risk it with a breeder who hasn't put a lot of thought into what they are doing? Keep saving and researching breeders, by then you'll have enough to afford a pup from a good breeder or maybe find a GSD in need of rescue

 

Brandi...it is normal....especially as the puppies start to get older and take more from their mother in nutrition.
I have females that look "plumper" in the beginning of nursing.....and "thinner" as the puppies grow and require more.
Close to the time of weaning.....moms are thinner...they quickly gain back their normal weight & tone....once pups are weaned.
The dogs in these pictures look normal & well kept.

 

Thanks for the information! This is good to know. Anything else you can tell me from the pictures?

 

If you don't have $1000, walk away from these breeders. The purchase price is typically the cheapest part. A hip replacement surgery can cost you 10K.

Very, very, VERY high odds if the parents haven't been screened by OFA or PennHip.

 

If you don't have $1000, walk away from these breeders. The purchase price is typically the cheapest part. A hip replacement surgery can cost you 10K.

Very, very, VERY high odds if the parents haven't been screened by OFA or PennHip.

Is a screening costly for them to do? I haven't asked the breeders, but if I do ask, would it be unreasonable to request they have the screenings done before I purchase?

 

Thanks for the info Robin

 

About 20 or 25 % of GSDs have some form of hip or elbow displasia, depending on which source you look at.

Here is a table from OFA on the percentage of displastic dogs broken down by breed:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

19% of dogs evaluated by OFA had some level of displasia. Keep in mind that these statistics are only for hip x-rays sent in to be evaluated. Many people, and many breeders never bother to have their dogs xrayed, and many owners will not bother to send in xrays that show bad hips.

 

19% of dogs evaluated by OFA had some level of displasia.

Sorry, meant to say: 19% of German Shepherd Dogs had displasia.

You also want the elbows screened and ofa'd. Elbow displasia is also very common, and another expensive genetic health issue that costs thousands of dollars in surgeries, and greatly impacts the quality of life of the affected dogs.

 

Looking at the male, the coat seems quite dull, and since yes, I've seen many nursing mothers get that thin, adding both I wouldn't guess, only by pictures, that they are the most healthy dogs out there.

Believe me, I am not someone to push rescue every time I see the word "breeder" on the forums. But I'd also wait another year and save those extra 500 (which is exactly what I did with my last pup) and get a pup from a breeder I really trust with parents from a pedigree I really like than gambling with the 500 pups of the "only one litter before spaying" breeder. That is why I say "If I were you", because if I weren't willing to pay what a good pup is worth, then instead of paying 500 I would pay 50 at a shelter fee and get the same odds in terms of health and temperament.

 

Looking at the male, the coat seems quite dull, and since yes, I've seen many nursing mothers get that thin, adding both I wouldn't guess, only by pictures, that they are the most healthy dogs out there.

Believe me, I am not someone to push rescue every time I see the word "breeder" on the forums. But I'd also wait another year and save those extra 500 (which is exactly what I did with my last pup) and get a pup from a breeder I really trust with parents from a pedigree I really like than gambling with the 500 pups of the "only one litter before spaying" breeder. That is why I say "If I were you", because if I weren't willing to pay what a good pup is worth, then instead of paying 500 I would pay 50 at a shelter fee and get the same odds in terms of health and temperament.

Thanks for the response. What do you mean by dull? Do you mean greyish?

 

Only thing that I can tell you is...(perhaps you already know?)...the father is a long stock coat, and the mother is a normal stock coat.
The puppies pictured are also long stock coated puppies.
As for safe, sound genetics?.....no one can predict.
This breed has genetic issues that plague it.....Dysplasia is only one of them.
*Word of caution....be careful (very careful) when deciding to purchase any puppy from unknown lineage or medical history.....even with the best intentions, "genetics" can reap havoc on any individual puppy.
JMO...best of luck to you.

 

I also forgot to ask. Is it normal for the puppies to have white hair on their paws? Some look like they have mittens!

 

To keep it simple... ask the breeder if the sire and dam have been OFA'd (pennHIP or A-stamps also acceptable) for both hips and elbows.

If they haven't, walk away. I don't care how cute those puppies are and how great and healthy the breeder tells you that those dogs are. I want to see PROOF.

Hips and elbows certified by a third party is an absolute minimum when breeding two GSD's. If they can't provide that, go somewhere else.

You should absolutely ask that the next time you speak to them.

 

To keep it simple... ask the breeder if the sire and dam have been OFA'd (pennHIP or A-stamps also acceptable) for both hips and elbows.

If they haven't, walk away. I don't care how cute those puppies are and how great and healthy the breeder tells you that those dogs are. I want to see PROOF.

Hips and elbows certified by a third party is an absolute minimum when breeding two GSD's. If they can't provide that, go somewhere else.

You should absolutely ask that the next time you speak to them.

I agree that the certification is definelty a good thing. It still doesn't guarantee the puppies won't have displasia isn't that correct?

Also, I remember her saying that the sire is somewhere around a year old. Is this normal to breed a dog this young?

 

Yep.....it occurs....I have a couple with white mittens too. Most will fade or the pup will grow and they slowly disappear....but some stay whiter at the tips of the toes when they are adults.

 

Personally...I would not breed a dog before it is 2 yrs old.
I also consider each dog after it has turned 2...not all dogs are physically or mentally mature even at that age...(IMO).
Paul....I have a female who is 6 yrs old....OFA Good & Normal passing elbows...we still have not bred her. I've also bred females after their 3rd birthday for the first time.....so again, it all depends on what my program "needs" at the time.

 

Personally...I would not breed a dog before it is 2 yrs old.
I also consider each dog after it has turned 2...not all dogs are physically or mentally mature even at that age...(IMO).
Paul....I have a female who is 6 yrs old....OFA Good & Normal passing elbows...we still have not bred her. I've also bred females after their 3rd birthday for the first time.....so again, it all depends on what my program "needs" at the time.

Besides not being able to do a proper displasia screen on a younger dog, will the puppies turn out any different when bred by young parents opposed to older parents?

 

To answer your question honestly.....I don't know.
What I do know is...puppies learn from their parents...especially their mother.
If she is too young and inexperienced..she may not properly rear her puppies and nurture them properly. If she displays nervousness, insecurities or aggression...the puppies will also learn these behaviours. *Proper physical & neural stimuli is crucial in puppy development*.
As for "health concerns" with either parents being too young for breeding...besides the possible complications of development in utero.?...I have no hands on experience to draw from....sorry.

 

Like Paul pointed out, there is too much you do not know at a year old. Temperament is not solid, no hip or elbow screenings, no eye screenings, and other health problems the dog may carry aren't present yet.

Correct and screened parents is no guarantee against hip dysplasia. HD is a multi gene issue, its not a single gene. So you can have parents with great hips and a puppy with severe HD due to the combination of genes in the background. Not breeding dogs with severe HD is the best way to stack the odds. Reputable breeders also pay attention to all of the dogs in their lines, not just the specific parents. For example knowing if littermates of the dog to be bred had HD, not just the parents or grandparents.

Genetics gets very complicated, and it takes a long time for responsible breeders to get to the point they're at. They typically start out as enthusiasts and learn and possibly begin their breeding under an experienced mentor. The price of a pup from a reputable breeder is higher due to all the work that went in to the dogs to prove them as breeding quality. Training, showing, health clearances. Most reputable breeders lose money on breeding because of all of the work they put into the dogs. But this is the best way to improve the breed and get the best chances at a happy, healthy, temperamentally sound family member.

If you don't have the money for a reputable breeder, looking into a rescue is a great option. For the adoption fee the dog will already be vaccinated and spayed/neutered and possibly microchipped. If you go with an adult, you get a better idea of the dogs temperament and health status. If you go with a puppy, well you're looking at similar odds as the poor breeding pup but will know your money went to a good cause and you didn't support someones mistake.

You mention this will likely be their only litter. Thats good, but selling the pups for 500 is not responsible in my opinion. First off letting the dogs get pregnant and not doing an emergency spay was irresponsible... But ok, pups are on the ground now. The responsible thing to do would be for them to vaccinate and spay/neuter all of the pups (to ensure their mistake does not increase exponentially) and then adopt them out. For the 500, they could definitely get this done prior to placing the dogs. Or they could drop the price to a reasonable fee and require spay/neuter contracts on all of the puppies sold. The situation looks like they're trying to make a quick buck and purposefully bred the dogs, or had an accident and now want to make a quick buck as a result instead of doing whats best for the dogs involved.

 

I agree with all answers your getting. I'm going to throw out another thing to think about, if it's here and I missed it, I apologize.

You said you don't have 1000 dollars to pay for a better bred puppy..And I know alot of people don't. My concern is this, you pay 500 for one of these puppies, and along the road your puppy comes down with allergies, hd/ed, gastro issues, or one of the many other things that gsd's can be prone to...The vet bills could be enormous. Muc more than your initial puppy cost.. How will you pay for that?

Your best bet is to do this, if you can afford 500, take that 500, and started adding to it..SAVE, look around for a breeder who at the minimum, does health testing, and knows whats behind their breeding.

All puppies are cute, and it's really hard to pass them up.. Honestly, if these dogs were ATLEAST 2 years old, had their hips and elbows done, and the breeder 'knew' what was behind them, I'd say go for it, but at this point, with the info provided by you, I would definately pass..

 

:thumbup:

 

The parents are good looking dogs, the pup is gorgeous. The parents seem to be fine amid all those kids in the yard. What you can see on the outside looks good, it's whats on the inside that you don't know about as far as health problems. But that is also true with any dog no matter who the breeder was, yes reputable breeders can have pups with less health problems because they are screened but it does happen.

The ball is in your court, you are the one making the decision, as for your original question I think that the parents are good looking and the pup is gorgeous. Good luck and keep us updated with what you decide.

 

Does the sire's coat look "dull" to you as another person mentioned?

 

From someone just like you, who spent 200 on a puppy to save money, understand you will end up spending a Lot more!!!

I ended up spending 1200 the firs 4 months on health issues that my vet said were because the breeder didn't take good care of the puppies.

If you don't have an extra 500 for the puppy- how can you afford vet care, kennel, over 50$ a month on food, toys, accidents, etc??

 

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If you don't have an extra 500 for the puppy- how can you afford vet care, kennel, over 50$ a month on food, toys, accidents, etc??

It's not that I can't afford it, it's that I have a budget on certain things. If problems arise I could afford it.

However, wouldn't getting insurance on the dog pretty much take care of medical issues, should they arise?

 

Run, don't walk, away. Far away. No hip/health testing? Run faster.

Breeding a dog without papers is not very ethical. I'll bet they bought a pup on limited registration, then went ahead and bred it anyway.

One year of age is too young to breed.

As I understand it, you're not supposed to breed longcoats.

With the white paws on that pup, it wouldn't surprise me if a fence-jumper got into the mix.

 

With the white paws on that pup, it wouldn't surprise me if a fence-jumper got into the mix.

So who do I believe? You, or robinhuerta who just said that the white paws are normal? These are the conficting pieces of advice that confuse me.....

 

Look at this link and honestly ask yourself...is this a reputable breeder?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Breeding a dog without papers...one year old...without health screening at the very least...the answer is no. Has the breeder screened You?

The even bigger picture...morally and ethically...is that buying from a nonreputable breeder supports them...and enables them to continue. There would be alot less health issues, temperment issues and dogs being euthanized, sitting on death row and swamping rescues if people did not support non-ethical breeders and enable them to continue.

Please support a reputable breeder or rescue.

 

His coat looks a little thin toward the tail... it could be he's just blowing coat, or it could be hair loss from a possible flea allergy.

 

He is in the shade and lighting sometimes will make them look dull when they are not. He looks healthy with a nice full coat, I don't see any matting so someone must be grooming him regularly.