I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.
onyx'girl
Lou, I just started working on this with Onyx as of last weekend. I am not going E-collar just yet. If you re-read my posts you will see this has been a two week thread, because of experience with a vet visit. Not quite enough time to get Onyx fear aggression managed.
Probably not enough time with other methods. But if you'd read "Simon's Story." http://loucastle.com/simon.htm you'd know that Simon made obvious, demonstrable progress in two days.
Here's a link to two dogs playing. One of them used to be aggressive towards the other and all dogs as well. Can you tell which one was the aggressive one? No one has been able to. He was rehabilitated with the Ecollar, using my protocol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qmMAFKBuKg Sorry there's no sound with it.
Lou,
I have not been "spanked," nor converted to an e-collar enthusiast or supporter. As for your comment that there is "no evidence" that shock collars can burn, my evidence was with my own eyes.
I don't understand why you can't make your points without personal insults, derogatory comments and self-aggrandizing referrals to your own web site.
As for "trying something new," have you EVER tried clicker training under the guidance of an experienced instructor? Why are you so closed to that?
If your statements are true, then all of Patricia McConnell's, Trish King's, Karen Pryor's, Ian Dunbar's, Suzanne Clothier's and Pat Miller's dogs would be fat, unruly heathens, yet they have more credentials, credibility and success than any shock collar fan I've ever seen.
I've never pulled a dog from a shelter that has "clicker trauma," but I have had experience with dogs traumatized by shock collars. THAT's my experience and my reality. I've also never put a dog on a shock collar for any reason, but my dogs haven't ended up fat and I've had success with their training.
As for the topic at hand, aggression begets aggression. If a dog is already tending toward fear aggression, giving him more cause to be fearful by using aggressive methodologies will reinforce the fear and the response. IMHO.
You disagree. That's your right, but it is also my right to know what I've seen, what I've experienced and what I believe.
I have not been "spanked," nor converted to an e-collar enthusiast or supporter. As for your comment that there is "no evidence" that shock collars can burn, my evidence was with my own eyes.
I don't understand why you can't make your points without personal insults, derogatory comments and self-aggrandizing referrals to your own web site.
As for "trying something new," have you EVER tried clicker training under the guidance of an experienced instructor? Why are you so closed to that?
If your statements are true, then all of Patricia McConnell's, Trish King's, Karen Pryor's, Ian Dunbar's, Suzanne Clothier's and Pat Miller's dogs would be fat, unruly heathens, yet they have more credentials, credibility and success than any shock collar fan I've ever seen.
I've never pulled a dog from a shelter that has "clicker trauma," but I have had experience with dogs traumatized by shock collars. THAT's my experience and my reality. I've also never put a dog on a shock collar for any reason, but my dogs haven't ended up fat and I've had success with their training.
As for the topic at hand, aggression begets aggression. If a dog is already tending toward fear aggression, giving him more cause to be fearful by using aggressive methodologies will reinforce the fear and the response. IMHO.
You disagree. That's your right, but it is also my right to know what I've seen, what I've experienced and what I believe.
Are you a medical doctor? A researcher who works on human skin? Some other sort of specialist who can tell the difference between a burn from friction and one from electiricty? Do you have some education that enables you to tell the difference between a burn and moist eczema? I ask because even medical doctors can have trouble with this. AND I know that no Ecollar puts out enough current to cause burns.
Did you perform tests to determine that this was a burn or did you simply assume that they were?
In the absence of any of this supporting material and knowing that no Ecollar puts out enough current to cause a burn, I'll have to say that you're wrong. This isn't a matter of your opinion v. mine, it's a matter of science and physics.
The first insults and derogatory comments were yours. Then you added to it by calling me a liar (indirectly) by saying that you'd seen burns from an Ecollar after I said that it's physically impossible for it to have occurred. Your agenda is obvious, to stop people from using Ecollars by scaring them by spreading myths, misconceptions and outright lies as if they were true.
And yet another insult. This is what the anti-Ecollar people always do. They start these kinds of arguments, then go to personal attacks in the hopes that moderators will close down the conversation and stop the flow of information and truth about Ecollars. That may happen, but another one will soon spring up.
Now you've made an assumption that turns out to be wrong. I've used clickers and I still use the method (not the tool the, I don't care for it) when it's appropriate. You've made the faulty assumption that I only use an Ecollar, one that's fairly common among anti-Ecollar folks. The difference between us is that you want people to think that the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" ALWAYS are appropriate and that's simply NOT true.
I'd suggest that you try to read what I actually said instead of what it seems you wish I'd said. I was quite clear. Here it is again,
I NEVER said that it occurred all the time. I was quite clear that it only happens when the owners don't "compensate" for it.
And this has to do with the topic in what way? Dogs can be traumatized with any tool, including the clicker. I saw a woman lose her temper, because she had gotten frustrated with the failure of her attempts to use the clicker, and throw the clicker, striking the dog in the head with it. It's only by luck that the dog wasn't injured. But I'd never cite that as why a clicker should not be used. That would be stupid.
Nice try Susan. But it's clear that you've decided to try and twist what I wrote.
I agree that might be a result. And so my protocol http://loucastle.com/critter.htm doesn’t use the Ecollar to stop the aggression. Instead it's a form of behavior modification. Neither the fear nor the response is reinforced. But this is the EXACT SORT OF COMMENT I'd expect from someone with a closed mind who thinks she know how I use an Ecollar. Even a quick read of that protocol will show you how wrong you are. But I doubt that you'll bother. You have you mind made up and don't want to be confused by the facts.
It's not just that I disagree. It's that you're wrong about the burns. It's simply impossible. No Ecollar puts out enough current to cause burns. This is a lie told by anti-Ecollar people to scare people away from them. There is ABSOLUTELY no scientific evidence to support your claim. It would be easy to show, yet no one has done so.
You have not seen burns. You may think that you have. But the laws of physics say that you're wrong.
OK Susan I think we all understand that you hate eCollars, that is your choice.
Let's all agree that any training tool can be misused or abused. You can take a flat collar and choke a dog, should we never use flat collars?
Susan and Lou if you would like to email or PM each other to continue this back and forth, please do so.
Now let's move back to the Original Topic "Can fear aggression be overcome".
Wisc.Tiger - Admin.
Let's all agree that any training tool can be misused or abused. You can take a flat collar and choke a dog, should we never use flat collars?
Susan and Lou if you would like to email or PM each other to continue this back and forth, please do so.
Now let's move back to the Original Topic "Can fear aggression be overcome".
Wisc.Tiger - Admin.
Sue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!
i guess love, understanding and patience works better anyway as does desentsitizing the dog. I had been using all types of methods with Bearla and the one that seems to be working best is desensitizing Bearla by taking her in to see the vet for a weigh in ever couple of days plus the amichen bonding used by jan fennel.
between the two, we finnaly were able to walk into the vet yesterday for her weigh in and check up and NOT HAVE A SCENE. Bearla got out of the car and dug her feet in at first but i offered her a peice of jerky and told her if she was good there would be more. We went in and at first i had wanted to turn around because there were 4 dogs in there. Bearla began to pick up on my stress and started to growl so i forced myself to calm down and walked in but straight toward the toys and treats that are hanging on the walls that are for sale.
We looked them over and i kept talking too her. i noticed that her hackles were coming down. The girls that work there started talking to her from a distance and then the one, Cathy, came over offering her a treat and a yellow duck. Bearla stood WAGGING HER TAIL AND OFFERED HER PAW. She then sat BESIDE me, and stared at the other dogs. One was a GSD and you could see that she wanted to check it out. The owner was standing off to the side with it because apparently he was experiencing the same type of issue. if his dog got too close to other NON GSD it became extremely upset. Bearla wanted to go and check him out so i asked if it was okay to try to get them closer together. The big male looked her over and stood up stretching his neck out trying to sniff. When we seen both dogs tails wagging we thought it would be okay to get a bit closer. Within 5 min the two dogs were sniffing each others noses and making tentive little licks toward each other. They relaxed and actually sat there looking at the other dogs. The receptionist started laughing because she thought the look on thier faces was 'OK, We are royal, We Rule" You are all measly mutts." When it was time for Bearla to go it, she walked by the other dogs with her hackles up and giving a low growl but i would pull her head back up and tell her NO. The vet examined her with NO GROWLING. it was awesome. I loved it. The vet told me it could be because i have been doing so much work with her at home due to my health and the weather instead of going to the behaviorist.
Congratulations to Onxy's Mom for choosing a kinder gentler approach! It sounds as though you are making progress.
As a professional clicker trainer, I agree that fear agression is a management issue. I have worked with several dogs with fear aggression that have turned out to be wonderful dogs. It would be unfair to say that they all make it, some don't. That is just the reality. Any trainer that claims otherwise is dishonest at best and diluted and dangerous at worst. Dogs are fluid, no one can claim 100% efficacy with any degree of honesty.
Using correction based training practices on a dog that is already fearful CAN (not always) reinforce the fear even more strongly. For me, it comes down to respecting your dog and following your "gut". I would NEVER do anything to a dog that I would not do to someone that I love. Therefore, to use punishmnets that could harm them to me is repulsive. I certainly would be very upset if someone used those practices on my child.
Clicker training does often take a bit more time, this is true. However, you are building a strong bond between you and your dog, and one that is based on trust and "good things happening". I will gladly take the extra time to build a strong positive relationship wth an important member of my household. When my dogs comply with my wishes, it is because they do it from a place of love and not from fear of retribution. My dogs LOVE to train, it is the highlight of their day.
Having used correction based training in the past, before I was introduced to clicker training, I know first hand the difference in my dogs. My Wolf, who used to dread training, now loves it! He came to me so fearful that he didn't even want human contact. He now has his CGC and TDI. He was trained both ways, again, the difference in the results between the two methods was profound.
It sounds as though you have found a good, positive trainer for Onyx, and I wish you both a long, happy, loving relationship!
As a professional clicker trainer, I agree that fear agression is a management issue. I have worked with several dogs with fear aggression that have turned out to be wonderful dogs. It would be unfair to say that they all make it, some don't. That is just the reality. Any trainer that claims otherwise is dishonest at best and diluted and dangerous at worst. Dogs are fluid, no one can claim 100% efficacy with any degree of honesty.
Using correction based training practices on a dog that is already fearful CAN (not always) reinforce the fear even more strongly. For me, it comes down to respecting your dog and following your "gut". I would NEVER do anything to a dog that I would not do to someone that I love. Therefore, to use punishmnets that could harm them to me is repulsive. I certainly would be very upset if someone used those practices on my child.
Clicker training does often take a bit more time, this is true. However, you are building a strong bond between you and your dog, and one that is based on trust and "good things happening". I will gladly take the extra time to build a strong positive relationship wth an important member of my household. When my dogs comply with my wishes, it is because they do it from a place of love and not from fear of retribution. My dogs LOVE to train, it is the highlight of their day.
Having used correction based training in the past, before I was introduced to clicker training, I know first hand the difference in my dogs. My Wolf, who used to dread training, now loves it! He came to me so fearful that he didn't even want human contact. He now has his CGC and TDI. He was trained both ways, again, the difference in the results between the two methods was profound.
It sounds as though you have found a good, positive trainer for Onyx, and I wish you both a long, happy, loving relationship!
Wow,
after reading the back and forth between Mr. Castle and Susan I hope to relay a few comments that are more gemain to your original post.
Susan mentioned a post I made regarding Timber 1, a GSD that after surgery had absolutely no time for the vet. The vet's answer was be tough with the dog, although he never suggested an E-Collar. It was more along the lines that I should pin him down, make him know I am the alpha guy, etc. Literally without exception the folks on this board disagreed so I followed their advice. We visited the vet's office at least a dozen times for no reason other then to re-establigh the bond between Timber and my vet. I was thinking the E-Collar would have been a quicker fix, just a few jolts and prblem solved. However, the fear an E-Collar causes would not have improved the respect and feelings Timber, my vet and I have for each other.
I firmly believe the E-Collar does instll a different type of fear in a dog then other training methods, such as the use of a pronged collar.
You mentioned your dog being fearful and aggressive at training sessions. I have a fourteen month old rescue who has been out to meet a few potential adoptees. Sheba, my rescue and the dogs she meets are always seemingly aggressive toward each.
When Sheba was dropped off at my house three weeks ago, her and my dog Timber acted like they wanted to kill each other. I put them in seperate rooms, and they will still growl, fur up and teeth exposed when they even looked at each other. However, a few days later they became best of friends.
If you have the chance let you dog interract with a friend's dog for a few days, and I think you will be suprised at how well they play together. I guess you can tell I am not a big fan of formal classes unless it is SCH training.
I am personally not an E-Collar fan and would not use it on my dogs. However, I do think there are some instances in which an E-Collar should be used. Perhaps some of the articles Lou attached are specific about that issue. Nonetheless, in all the replies he provided he never specifically commented on specifically how the E-Collar should be used, and in what situations.
I will add that in my opinion the use of an E-Collar should be extremely rare.
My biggest problem in advocating the use of an E-Collar is it appears to be a quick for any problem a dog has. The dog won't obey, a few jolts of electricity and problem solved. Unfortunately, it is exremely harmful to the dog's mental state, and your future relationship with your pet.
after reading the back and forth between Mr. Castle and Susan I hope to relay a few comments that are more gemain to your original post.
Susan mentioned a post I made regarding Timber 1, a GSD that after surgery had absolutely no time for the vet. The vet's answer was be tough with the dog, although he never suggested an E-Collar. It was more along the lines that I should pin him down, make him know I am the alpha guy, etc. Literally without exception the folks on this board disagreed so I followed their advice. We visited the vet's office at least a dozen times for no reason other then to re-establigh the bond between Timber and my vet. I was thinking the E-Collar would have been a quicker fix, just a few jolts and prblem solved. However, the fear an E-Collar causes would not have improved the respect and feelings Timber, my vet and I have for each other.
I firmly believe the E-Collar does instll a different type of fear in a dog then other training methods, such as the use of a pronged collar.
You mentioned your dog being fearful and aggressive at training sessions. I have a fourteen month old rescue who has been out to meet a few potential adoptees. Sheba, my rescue and the dogs she meets are always seemingly aggressive toward each.
When Sheba was dropped off at my house three weeks ago, her and my dog Timber acted like they wanted to kill each other. I put them in seperate rooms, and they will still growl, fur up and teeth exposed when they even looked at each other. However, a few days later they became best of friends.
If you have the chance let you dog interract with a friend's dog for a few days, and I think you will be suprised at how well they play together. I guess you can tell I am not a big fan of formal classes unless it is SCH training.
I am personally not an E-Collar fan and would not use it on my dogs. However, I do think there are some instances in which an E-Collar should be used. Perhaps some of the articles Lou attached are specific about that issue. Nonetheless, in all the replies he provided he never specifically commented on specifically how the E-Collar should be used, and in what situations.
I will add that in my opinion the use of an E-Collar should be extremely rare.
My biggest problem in advocating the use of an E-Collar is it appears to be a quick for any problem a dog has. The dog won't obey, a few jolts of electricity and problem solved. Unfortunately, it is exremely harmful to the dog's mental state, and your future relationship with your pet.
This has no meaning in the real world but it's a typical comment from those who know little about the modern use of Ecollars.
What does it mean to say "a level set for what would be used on Bearla?" Is that the level at which she'd first feel it? Does that mean a level that your trainer would use? Is that something else entirely?
In any case the level at which you first feel the stim has nothing to do with the level at which your dog first feels the stim. All of my basic work is done at the level the dog first feels the stim. The difference between what you feel and what the dog feels has to do with skin conductivity and nerve sensitivity and there's no correlation between those things for a dog and for a human. I've had dogs that worked on a 4 (out of 127 levels) and have never found a human who could feel that. And I had one human who didn't feel the highest level that the Ecollar had.
Desensitizing is a good method but it takes time and one bad incident can set you back or even destroy all that's been done.
What other methods have you been using?
Dogs often respond to our state of mind.
The same questions that I asked of Susan apply to you. Are you a medical doctor? A researcher who works on human skin? Some other sort of specialist who can tell the difference between a burn from friction and one from electricity? Do you have some education that enables you to tell the difference between a burn and moist eczema? I ask because even medical doctors can have trouble with this.
Ecollars don't put out enough current to cause burns. This is basic physics. At worst you may have seen the result of moist eczema. It looks like a burn but it has nothing to do with the electrical current that the Ecollar puts out. It's from the contact points cutting circulation to that directly under them, and so sores can result. This can occur with any type of collar but is more prevalent with Ecollars because of the direct pressure the contact points apply.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ELECTRICAL CURRENT THEY PUT OUT! That current is similar to the static electricity that you get from rubbing your feet across the carpet and then touching a door knob. At 20% humidity that static shock would produce a sensation that is more than nine times stronger than an Ecollar used as I use them. That static shock can be as high as 20,000 to 25,000 volts. Ecollars put out from 3 to 200 volts, with current measured in micro amps. That's not enough to cause burns. It's simply physically impossible.
I have a dog here that developed sores from wearing the Ecollar without being stimmed. A local vet thought they were burns from the Ecollar. Yet the collar hadn't ever been turned on much less had her stimmed. When he was told this he changed his mind. Even medicals can be fooled. Turns out that she was allergic to the stainless steel us in the contact points. I replaced them with another type of metal and the sores disappeared.
I've felt the highest level of stim that an Ecollar can put out for up to ten seconds (after that it "times out.") I've stimmed myself hundreds of times in the exact same spot at high levels. No burns or even redness resulted. And our skin is much more delicate than a dog's.
This is a myth.
That can happen when the Ecollar is used at high levels. It doesn’t happen when my methods are used. In my system the dog does not associate the stim with the handler. And of course there are many ways to get a dog to distrust you. One the best (as far as destroying trust) is using physical corrections at too high a level for the disobedience. It can also happen when a treat is offered to a dog with so-called "kinder, gentler methods" and then that treat is withheld. It takes many reps but it's not something that's limited to traditional methods that use corrections.
The worst I've ever seen was Roma. Http://loucastle.com/roma.htm and she sounds FAR WORSE than Bearla.
I think that management is necessary until and unless it can be fixed. If it can be fixed then management is no longer necessary.
That's probably true. But I've not had a failure since I've been using my protocol.
I agree. That's why I don't use a "correction based method" with the Ecollar, or any other tool for that matter.
I agree. That's one thing that's great about the Ecollar. It can't cause any harm.
Conversations that compare children to dogs or dogs to any other animals are silly. We do things to our dogs that if we did them to our children would have us jailed for child abuse.
And we do things with out children that if we did them with our dogs would have no effect on their behavior.
Used as it's commonly done, Ecollars often cause problems with the relationship between dog and owner. But used as I do, it actually strengthens the bond between dog and owner. Often it can create one in a few minutes when there was only one of fear there before. This can be seen in my work with Roma. Before I started working with her she tried to bite me, an all out attack because she was afraid of a noise that she thought I'd made. But about 25 minutes later, after doing nothing but working the recall protocol, she climbed up into my lap and was licking my face. People who were watching (who BTW were hoping that I'd fail – they were against the use of the Ecollar) jokingly said that I had gone behind a car and switched dogs on them.
There's an implied statement here that dogs trained with Ecollars don't come from a "place of love" and that they perform out of a "fear of retribution." Nothing could be further from the truth.
Steven Lindsay, author of the three volume set, "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training." writes,
And
Mine too! When they hear the tinkle that the roller buckle of the Ecollar strap makes, they come a runnin'.
Me too. But I haven't seen anyone advocating "correction based training" in this conversation. Can you steer me to such comments?
I'll refer you to an article I wrote a while back. http://loucastle.com/dominance.htm It talks about the alpha roll and that I don't think it's EVER a sound practice. Vet's are medical specialists. Absent some education in dog training outside their medical education, they know little about training a dog. But because they wear a white coat, lots of people think they must know about lots of things. Witness the white coats in ads on TV commercials.
I'm not sure why you people keep making comments like this. I don't advocate a "few jolts" for ANYTHING, much less for fixing fear aggression. Can you tell us what this has to do with my protocol for fixing fear aggression?
An Ecollar used as I do and advocate does not cause fear.
Please expand on this. But to be pertinent to what I'm advocating please read my articles on how I use the tool. It's different from how you know of its use. I'm not talking about any other way that the tool is used in this conversation.
Knowing what it seems that you know about them, I completely understand this feeling. But, again, I'd ask you to read a couple of my articles about their use. I'd guess that it's NOT what you are familiar with.
LOL. I’m limited to 1,000 words here. It's also the policy of this site not to quote articles from the Net at length, so I just supply the links to my articles.
I advocate use of the Ecollar for fear based aggression, and for just about any kind of OB.
I’ll counter that used as you seem to know of their use I'd agree. But used as I do, I think that it's use should be extremely common. It's fast, it's safe, it's easy on both the dog and the handler and it's completely humane.
I think you left out the word "fix" from this sentence. At least that's what I'll assume. A "quick fix" usually means something that's "quick" and "dirty," something that doesn't last. Something like putting duct tape on a leaking radiator hose to get the car home or to the garage. But an Ecollar is probably the most long lasting training of any kind of tool. Dogs that are snake proofed (taught to avoid poisonous snakes) often learn to stay away from them FOR LIFE, with only one stim. NOTHING ELSE that exists in the world of dog training tools can give that kind of result.
There's that phrase again. It's not what I do. I wish that people would read an article when a link is posted so they'd know what I was talking about. But some won't bother, they'll assume they know what we're talking about. As can be seen, some don't. they think that what they've seen and heard about Ecollars is the only way they can be used. Sadly that often leads to long disagreements, until they finally realize that we're talking about two widely different things.
[Comment Removed by Admin]
Prior to this post I had heard you were great with GSD's and someone that is worth listening to.
I will not mention names, because I always get criticzed for quoting others advice and not providing my own. But suffice it to say even ------- ---- which trains more German Shepherds in the US would not be happy which seems to have developed into a personal issue with you and Wisc. Tiger.
Please read my prior post and a response would be appreciated.
Finally, I have not checked your board, but will. Right now I am busy trying to get another rescue into my home. And if that rescue, like so many is fearful, aggressive, the use of an E-Collar is out.
Finally, a personal thanks to the moderator of this board. E-Collars may have their place, but for many they are the quick, easy fix. So thanks for not closing and letting everyone express their opinions.
Prior to this post I had heard you were great with GSD's and someone that is worth listening to.
I will not mention names, because I always get criticzed for quoting others advice and not providing my own. But suffice it to say even ------- ---- which trains more German Shepherds in the US would not be happy which seems to have developed into a personal issue with you and Wisc. Tiger.
Please read my prior post and a response would be appreciated.
Finally, I have not checked your board, but will. Right now I am busy trying to get another rescue into my home. And if that rescue, like so many is fearful, aggressive, the use of an E-Collar is out.
Finally, a personal thanks to the moderator of this board. E-Collars may have their place, but for many they are the quick, easy fix. So thanks for not closing and letting everyone express their opinions.
"Sue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!"
Geez!! That's bordering on non-sequitur! I would venture to say that the tug you used when passing the other dogs at the vets would likely hurt most humans.
Are you saying that you fitted Bearla with an ecollar and the method didn't work or just that you subjected yourself to the stim that you thought would be Bearla's level?
I thoroughly understand the emotion of people who have furkids. I'm glad your method worked. How long did it take? Do you trust her to do it every time?
Geez!! That's bordering on non-sequitur! I would venture to say that the tug you used when passing the other dogs at the vets would likely hurt most humans.
Are you saying that you fitted Bearla with an ecollar and the method didn't work or just that you subjected yourself to the stim that you thought would be Bearla's level?
I thoroughly understand the emotion of people who have furkids. I'm glad your method worked. How long did it take? Do you trust her to do it every time?
[quote removed by Admin. because it was deleted from a post made by a member]
I'm not even sure that you're addressing this to me except that later you make an anti Ecollar statement and since I'm the main one writing on behalf of Ecollars, I'll guess that you are addressing me.
Ya see this is where I'm confused. I only know Wisc. Tiger because he's (and even the gender is a guess based on some photos on his website) a moderator here and asked that Susan F and I stop debating in public. I'm pretty sure that we've never even exchanged emails. Do you mean someone else?
I'm not even sure that you're addressing this to me except that later you make an anti Ecollar statement and since I'm the main one writing on behalf of Ecollars, I'll guess that you are addressing me.
Some think I am. Others not so much.
"… trains more GSD'S in the US" … than who? And what has this to do with this discussion?
I have a personal issue with Wisc. Tiger? Not that I know of.
Ya see this is where I'm confused. I only know Wisc. Tiger because he's (and even the gender is a guess based on some photos on his website) a moderator here and asked that Susan F and I stop debating in public. I'm pretty sure that we've never even exchanged emails. Do you mean someone else?
If you're talking to me, I did respond to you in my post # 615208
My understanding on how the ecollar is used by Lou, and used to overcome fear agression, is that the collar is used to reward the dog for appropriate behaviour when faced with the object of its fears (like other dogs, for example).
I think that most people are stuck in the mindset that the ecollar is used to correct or punish unwanted behaviour. I am sure that traditionally, this was the main use of the collar. The dog does something "wrong", something undesirable, and a correction is delivered via the ecollar. There are many problems withi this type of "training" ( I wounld't call it training myself, and do not see much use in this kind of usage.) For one, you have to wait for the dog to do something wrong, then "punish" him for it. The problem is that the dog has NO IDEA what is the right behaviour, that feedback is lacking.
From what I understand from reading Lou's website, the correct way of using an ecollar is to allow the dog to figure out the right thing to do, and be rewarded for it. The dog is given the option of a number of behaviour choices, and when the right behaviour is offered, the stim stops. I understand that the stim is the lowest possible level that delivers no pain, but only a tickle. Pain would introduce stress and fear, which would be counter-productive to learning, and make some situations only worse, as in fear agression, for example.
In the dog's mind, he has control over the stim. Do this, and it stops. Training is accelarated, because training is POSITIVE: the RIGHT behaviour is rewarded. This also allows clearer communication in complex situations. Instead of focusing on punishing for the wrong behaviour, the dog is being rewarded for the correct behaviour. In the example on Lou's website, the dog learned that ignoring other dogs and focusing on the handler in a calm manner was rewarding. The dog felt in control, he knew exactly what to do to get the wanted result. A sense of control replaced his fear.
This is really a new way of looking at ecollar use and training. Very intriguing and insightful. I can see that many people would have a hard time letting go of their old training beliefs in order to understand the psychology behind continuous-stim training.
Very interesting.
I think that most people are stuck in the mindset that the ecollar is used to correct or punish unwanted behaviour. I am sure that traditionally, this was the main use of the collar. The dog does something "wrong", something undesirable, and a correction is delivered via the ecollar. There are many problems withi this type of "training" ( I wounld't call it training myself, and do not see much use in this kind of usage.) For one, you have to wait for the dog to do something wrong, then "punish" him for it. The problem is that the dog has NO IDEA what is the right behaviour, that feedback is lacking.
From what I understand from reading Lou's website, the correct way of using an ecollar is to allow the dog to figure out the right thing to do, and be rewarded for it. The dog is given the option of a number of behaviour choices, and when the right behaviour is offered, the stim stops. I understand that the stim is the lowest possible level that delivers no pain, but only a tickle. Pain would introduce stress and fear, which would be counter-productive to learning, and make some situations only worse, as in fear agression, for example.
In the dog's mind, he has control over the stim. Do this, and it stops. Training is accelarated, because training is POSITIVE: the RIGHT behaviour is rewarded. This also allows clearer communication in complex situations. Instead of focusing on punishing for the wrong behaviour, the dog is being rewarded for the correct behaviour. In the example on Lou's website, the dog learned that ignoring other dogs and focusing on the handler in a calm manner was rewarding. The dog felt in control, he knew exactly what to do to get the wanted result. A sense of control replaced his fear.
This is really a new way of looking at ecollar use and training. Very intriguing and insightful. I can see that many people would have a hard time letting go of their old training beliefs in order to understand the psychology behind continuous-stim training.
Very interesting.
Thanks,
this is getting out of hand. You have already deleted the first paragraph of one of my responses to Lou.
I did spent a bit of time on Lou's web site and was never more disappointed. Everyone should give it a read.
I would like to elaborate and say a few things about other controversial folks, like Ed Frawley at Leerburg, but I suspect any other comments would just result in another delete.
Finally, so no one mis reads. Ed has been great with my son and his dogs, opionated be very helpful. The last time I mentioned a name someone blasted me for criticizing and that is not the case regarding Leerburg.
this is getting out of hand. You have already deleted the first paragraph of one of my responses to Lou.
I did spent a bit of time on Lou's web site and was never more disappointed. Everyone should give it a read.
I would like to elaborate and say a few things about other controversial folks, like Ed Frawley at Leerburg, but I suspect any other comments would just result in another delete.
Finally, so no one mis reads. Ed has been great with my son and his dogs, opionated be very helpful. The last time I mentioned a name someone blasted me for criticizing and that is not the case regarding Leerburg.
You got it.
Ecollars were originally invented in the late 1960's to stop hunting dogs from chasing game, mainly deer. The technique was to wait until the dog was involved in the chase and then press the button. Those Ecollars had much higher levels than collars of today and they were not adjustable. They had only one button. Press it and the dog was stimmed. Release it and it stopped. The idea was to put the dog into avoidance; to make him afraid of chasing deer because of the pain that accompanied it. Keep in mind that those dogs were animals that had been bred for decades to hunt and so had very high levels of drives, especially prey drive. Lesser amounts of pain would not stop them from chasing.
But today's collar are much different. The stim level can be adjusted from the transmitter and they can be adjusted so low that no dog (and no human) can feel the stim. That means that they can be slowly turned up until the animal just barely can perceive it. That's the level at which the basic work, including the work on fear-aggression, is done.
Exactly right. With that method of using the Ecollar the dog had to make the right association. Some dogs didn't. Some dogs made the association of the pain with being away from the handler. Those dogs didn't want to leave the handler's side again. some dogs were able to just power through the pain. It was all but impossible to stop those dogs from chasing deer.
But I advocate that you don't give the dog the opportunity to do the wrong thing. Instead, when the stim is introduced the dog is on leash so that he can be gently guided into the desired behavior. This means that there can't be any improper associations made.
Close. Usually the dog is guided into the right behavior, using the leash, hands or both. In the case of the protocol for crittering or dog-to-dog aggression, the dog is pulled backwards. The leash pulls him backwards as he faces the prey animal. Since no animal likes to walk backwards, they step on uncomfortable things and trip over things, in a couple of steps he turns his head to see where he's going. As soon as he does, the stim is removed, rewarding him for turning his head.
I don't use the word "tickle." The stim is meant to be uncomfortable and the word tickle may mislead someone into thinking that the stim is "fun."
Yep.
Excellent interpretation of what I've written.
So folks don't think I'm claiming to be some kind of dog training genius, I'm not. LOL. I didn't invent this stuff. I stole it from several trainers who were doing it, tweeked it to suit me and the Average Pet Owner (whatever that means) and put it on my site so anyone can learn to do it.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
