It really depends on the strength of the genetics behind the dog and bitch. Some dogs are very prepotent and tend to produce sons and daughters that resemble themselves. I started with a daughter of a rather inbred bitch named Citty Haus Ming so I tend to get females that resemble (in their work) their mother and grandmother with some lessor influence coming from the sire and his mother's mother. The males have tended to be a blend of both or, as in my D litter, leaned one way or the other depending on their color. Donovan (black like dad) is very much his father's son except his head comes down from Nike through Vala. Drigon (dark b/t) is his mother and grandmother. Deja (b/t) is pure and simply her grandmother with some influence of her mother and paternal great grandam Deika.

In my current litter (4th generation of this line) there is a dark b/t male where there is no mistake he is from my lines. I see it already at 7.5 weeks.

I tend to have dogs that all look similar probably because I have found that what I like always comes in that look, but that would be a different thread.

Anyhow, pick the puppy that most resembles his/her father by 7-9 weeks and then move forward. Something to remember, though, that often what we want in a breeding program must also come from the bitch and not just from the male. If you want to continue with dogs like Jäger than pick females for breeding that also bring these virtues or other valuable traits to the program. Don't expect Jäger to do all the work of producing the types of dogs you want.

Long day, I hope that makes sense.

 

Oh it's not to say she doesn't have qualities I really like or want to preserve, particularly for a female... If I could cherry pick from both I'd have perfection in my eyes... Obviously that's not possible lol.

Is there any pattern in what tends to be more influenced by sire or dam? Or on the sex off the pup? Like (now somewhat disproved) how people say if you want to now if a male human will be balding, look at the maternal grandfather as the genetic influence for that is on the X chromosome, where a male gets only a Y from the father

 

Do more traits from the sire tend to stick with female puppies moreso than the male puppies? Do specific traits tend to follow one path?

 

No, I have found my girls tend to be more like their grandmothers (so their mother's mother and their father's mother). Vala is more like her father, but her father is his mother's son and more resembles that line over his father's sire line. Navarre, though, was a combination of his grandfather's (Belschik's father Troll and Nike's father Harro). I would say Nike was like her father, but also a lot like what I heard about her mother's sire and dam (mostly the latter).

If you look at Timmy and Troll bösen Nachbarschaft, Timmy was of the Fero type and maybe some of the nerve coming through Fero's dam. Troll, on the other hand, was of his mother's type and proved to be the better producer with the better nerve. Again, there is that color thing.

I would look at the grand parents of the cross you want to make to get an idea about how the pups will end up. Figure out where what you like in each dog is coming from and that should give you a better idea about how the different pups may turn out in the litter.

 

Never really looked at their coats... So it appears Troll took his mother's coat, and Timmy his fathers?

As far as my planned breeding's grandparents, well I own one of them so obviously extremely knowledgable of her. The other on the dam side (Atze) is who all of Katya's aggression must have come through b/c it doesn't show with Aska (whom I own). It is also who she got her coat from (well atleast halfway lol. Atze was black). Jäger's sire is well known but I have no direct experience with him so I'm not sure if Jäger favors his sire or dam. He certainly got his sire's coat pattern but is far darker like his dam's coat, or Brawnsons coat. Interestingly, I do think he looks extremely similar in the face to Brawnson. Doesn't look like his sire at all IMO.

Also, Jäger is 'aw,aw' and Katya is obviously 'a,a' so all potential offspring will take his coat

 

Jane, the one I am nick naming BA is the b/t male (BT).

 

You 100% sure Jäger is homozygous sable? He looks to me like he may carry black which he could have inherited from his mother (since her mother was black).

 

Unless the DNA test was wrong

 

@hunterisgreat - please be sure to use the mentors (and tools) that are available to you to make sure you are making a wise decision to breed your female to your male. In saying this, I am not trying to imply that you aren't, just trying to emphasize the importance of using them.

I honestly think that if I were to look at percentages on this issue, most people should not be breeding their male/female. I am NOT saying that this is the case in this particular instance, but do your due diligence... I know you are capable of doing so.

 

I feel I have. I've done all the health tests. I've put thousands of hours into the dogs training, I've worked many other dogs and have a feel for what else is out there, I've titled them both, I've independently gotten many opinions of what they should produce, all puppies are already spoken for with alternates... Honestly don't know what else can be done to validate the decision.

 

Hunter, don't feel like you have to justify your decision to anyone on this board. They are your dogs and you are actively involved with them. You have as much right to breed them as anyone. After all you will be the one ultimately responsible for the well being of the litter.

 

:thumbup:

 

The people I'm getting a dog from...consistently hold back females. They currently have 5 females and just one male. The male will never be bred to any of their breeding females as he's a son of one, and has the same sire as the other. Their youngest shares a dam with him. I think when it comes to breeding and preserving a line its easier to have the female than trying to find a female later on that fits your male. Then you have to hope that that female has also been worked, and has the traits you want to pass on to the future generation that you might want to then hold back. I'd also figure that leasing a female would be quite expensive.

 

Could help but chuckle at the phrase "leasing a female" lol

 

Wow, if my comment on this thread came off as "needing to justify..." Well that just means that people are hyper-sensitive. Honestly, given some recent threads that hunter followed (and started on his own) I think he knows what I am referring to and I doubt that he took offense at my post. But, I could certainly be wrong on that... that is for hunter to detmine and judge.

 

No, I expect people to question my decisions. I've weighed many different pairings. I've even contacted the owners of some suggested dogs. If I couldn't show I've done the right things before arriving at the decision then that would be an indicator to myself more consideration was warranted. I was just saying that I felt I had done due diligence. No hurt feelings, egos, etc over here. Would be glad to elaborate why I made the decision if you like.

 

Most keep females because the dam owner's own the litters, and make the decisions, etc., for going forward with a line. Get a great bitch, and then find the right dog for her. His part in this only takes the time it takes for a couple of ties. If you do not have a dog, you are less likely to use a dog out of convenience with your bitch. Sure these two will make great puppies, but is there a better dog for a specific bitch out there?

The chances that a dog that we raised from a pup, best complements a bitch that we raised from a pup, are pretty slim, and really opens the door to kennel blindness. If we purchased the dog and bitch with that in mind paying attention to the genetics and what the various dogs were likely to produce, you can get closer.

But, hey, someone has to keep stud dogs. If the lines are compatible, and the one answers areas to be improved upon with the other, there is a good chance that there will pups that match what you want.

I think you should wait and see, which pup makes the best sense for you, be it male or female. I mean, it sounds like you are planning on going forward. A dog pup, if you already have a dog, might not be as useful in developing a line, than a bitch pup. Because then you have to go and find the bitch you like to use him on. It's just easier to find a dog to breed to your bitch, than it is to find a bitch to breed to your dog.

 

A number of dogs will be owned and worked by folks I know so ill have access to many of the pups down the road. I'm very aware of what you called "kennel blindness" and very cautious with validating my own opinions of my dogs as I'm keenly aware of my inherent bias. This is why I've sought out many third party opinions, more so than I would for dogs I don't know at all.

I got the female in the hopes she'd complement my male, and the general opinion is they do. Furthermore, my male brings some qualities that are lacking in her, and vice versa, so hopefully there will be some pups that exceed either of them. This is the pup I wan to retain

 

Line-breeding for the progency of Beschützer des Jägers von den Sportwaffen and Katya von Hugelblick

 

hunter, where do you think Jagers special quality is coming from?

there is a difference in the female complementing the male , and trying to pull ephemeral "stuff" out of the males pedigree.
If that is what you want you need to know the male's pedigree extremely well , find the sources for your desired qualities and breed an animal that has that running through the veins of the pedigree.

Katya is pretty different .

 

Its hard for me to say. No one seems to know a tremendous amount about his dam's lines. Of the few people that have told me about some of the dam side, there are some qualities that I've only heard described there that Jäger definitely expresses, that no one has ever said about the sire's side. There are also qualities from the sire side that I am guessing are heavy influences, but its certainly possible there is equal or greater influence from the dam side... but I've got a less clear picture of her lines.

I know what you mean, and certainly I've less experience than most of you here in playing match-maker... but no one has yet been screaming "noo! that match will never work!!!" or anything of that nature. They've all been positive. I'm also more comfortable considering matches where I know the dogs themselves, for obvious reasons. This is where the Axel dog came from. I know that dog, and know how he works. I didn't know anything about his lines and actually was viewing the pedigree at the same time most of you all were.

Its not that the qualities I like in Jäger are absent in Katya or vice versa, but that ultimately, if I'm to establish my own line, I should decide what my goals are, what I like, what I don't like, what I want to enhance, what I want to extinguish, etc, and seek to achieve those goals correct?

If I'm off base on anything, or going about it wrong, by all means educate me. I'm a sponge.

 

At some point the researching ends and you have to do the breeding to see if you get the results you expected. Then you raise and develop the pups. That is where you see if you have accomplished your goals. The second breeding is often easier because you will have a better feel for how your dogs produce.

 

Yeah I feel like I've done every bit of research, proofing, etc that I am able to do. Obviously its ultimately a educated guess at best which dogs produce well together. At *some* point, one must simply take the plunge and roll the dice after stacking the deck as best as one can. However, if there is more work to be done, I'd love it for that to be shared with me as I'm unaware of what else I should/could do.

Thats also why with this first experience I'm keeping all the puppies close and not going somewhere I can see how they develop

 

think ahead two generations --- just speaking in generalities , Line-breeding for the progency of Beschützer des Jägers von den Sportwaffen and Katya von Hugelblick where do you think you might want to go next , if you kept a female back or had access to one of the females.

 

Since this is an outcross breeding, it is really more of a crapshoot. It is not that scientific, but you could keep the pup that has the phenotype most similar to the breeding partner whose qualities you hope to obtain.

 

Chip -- that's what I said -- the dogs will be good dogs , but hunter wants to capture something specific from his sire , some character , drive , temperament. Looking at the youtubes I prefer the male - he is warm , social an engaged . Hard to put "science" to the art when you the pedigree is not as knowable, even though we know the names and the achievements we don't know too much. That seems to be the Czech pattern.
I would keep the one that most resembled the best of the sire's pedigree , and go forward on that .

There has to be a plan -- seems like the male IS the FOUNDATION .

 

Well, like I said, the dream would be to cherry pick qualities from both... she has some really nice things I like as well, but many of those qualities seem a little easier to find? Does that make sense? I want to combine the dogs, not replicate one at the expense of the other. I understand that it is a bit of an outcross and the litter will run a wider spectrum... but there's still some shared DNA, T-litter for example, that I think make it not completely a wildcard. That, and does anyone know how certain traits express in an outcross? For example (just example... not describing the actual dogs):
Sire has high aggression, dam has high aggression, does the whole litter similar aggression even if an extreme outcross?
Sire has high prey, dam has high prey, does the whole litter similar prey even if an extreme outcross?

If a tall man and a tall woman make a child, we can say with certainty that the child will be tall... how many (or which) traits follow this behavior?

 

Also, I assume the strategy would be to seek to line breed the ideal progeny with whomever I can determine the traits originate with to fix the trait and reduce the variance introduced through the outcross?

 

Understanding genetics has always been somewhat difficult for me because it seems so complicated. For example, I'm not sure that tall human partners would always produce tall children. You have to know what genes responsible for a defined behavioral trait are recessive or dominant, and I don't think anyone has figured that out. It is much easier to breed for conformation/color, etc.
Obviously, the closer up the ancestors, the greater the genetic influence. One person has a theory of studying the pedigree and looking for producers of producers and trying to backload the potential breeding with dogs of that type of pedigree, provided they also produce the traits you are looking for. But I think you are correct that you will just have to start with this breeding and develop a strategy from there. If you can get in touch with Bruce Brisson, he seems to know a ton about the genetics of many of the German lines and bases his breeding theories on ideas that breeders of race horses use.

 

I was oversimplifying, but its a "generally true" thing. I'd bet most of the things that decided traits such as nerve, aggression, prey, etc, are influenced by many many genes in combination and in ways too complex for a human to wrap their head around. I *would* say if I had the full DNA sequence of all the dogs then predicting quantifiable traits would be a non-trival but simple matter using modern computer analysis techniques... presently computers can quite capably predict stock price shifts 30 seconds in advance and execute trades on that. From a technical standpoint, analyzing a DNA sequence is the same.

 

Jäger is an outcross and this breeding will be an outcross. Your female is fairly heavily linebred on Fero/Troll. You may find that she has more influence over the puppies than Jäger. The challenge will be to pick the puppy/puppies that most represent the good of each parent or at least of the sire. The litter will probably be all over the place so the real skill will be where you go in the next generation, etc.

 

If they all ended up as carbon-copies of Katya I'd still be very pleased, but I'd like to see a move a bit more back towards general utility vs. so sporty.

Would it be fair to say that Jäger is likely not similar to his litter-mates?

 

lol -- that's what I said !
I am thinking at least 3 generations to get where you want to be -- not saying they won't be good pups.

 

Yeah thats why I'm asking so many questions and trying to form the plan now lol.

 

Keep me posted on the litter.

 

Hunter, just out of curiosity, do you know how Jagers littermates are turning out(and who they matched for breeding)?
Anyone breeding them/or Katya's siblings, for that matter?

 

Out of Kayla's litter there were 6 females, 2 males. Several dogs ended up as protection dogs for someone in the Middle East. No idea if others were bred but I could ask the breeder. We are in regular contact

Out of jagers litter I have no idea who may have bred. I could also ask as I keep in touch with Nate. He has expressed he's pleased with what he sees in Jäger. I know the local police all know who he is without having ever set eyes on him via the grape vine bc of some K9 handlers I work with.