@car2ner did you ever see the scary doll that's used to test how a dog will react to children?I'm sure all of my dogs would be leery of that thing too,lol!

 

@Slamdunc, you are to be commended for the work you have put into building a solid relationship with Boru. I enjoy hearing about him.

As I have stated before, it is not that I believe messing with a dogs food is to be routine. It's simply that I am aware that in busy, cramped households the chances of a toddler or child bumping an eating dog are fairly significant. So I condition against it. I never want a dog that I placed to be THAT dog. To be fair, to the best of my knowledge most of the dogs I place are fed kibble and your points about raw being high value are solid. But I also teach leave it and out and those two commands rank high on my list of priorities. I used to get teased about having the only dogs on the planet that would spit out food.
Rather then creating a competitive dining experience, I work to create an environment where eating is a social event. There may be bumping and jostling but there is always food.

 

Rather then creating a competitive dining experience, I work to create an environment where eating is a social event. There may be bumping and jostling but there is always food.

I like this!Sounds like our house.Figuring out how to relieve anxiety rather than create it.

 

One last perspective on his topic. If you mess with a dog while they are eating you can cause other problems, not guarding.

I did this by accident with one dog. I regret it and I won't make the mistake again. He was actually having some stomach problems and his appetite wasn't great. he isn't and never was really super into food anyway.

In a nutshell he wanted to eat less and I was trying to coax him to eat. At one point it worked and he ate, and then suddenly it backfired big time and he just didn't want to eat. I was making him uncomfortable trying to get him to eat. It didn't result in guarding, it resulted in him not wanting to eat way more

I solved the stomach problems with a minor food change, and then I completely disengaged from him about it, put his bowl down around a corner where we can't even see each other when he eats and that is how he eats to this day.

Occasionally his still does not finish a meal, he stops I just pick up his bowl and that's that. If he loses a little weight he will get hungry and eat more on his own, if I stay out of it. He maintains fine. He is healthy, sometimes a little leaner than I like but usually when he gets lean like that his appetite then kicks in and he will eat more to make up for it. The important thing is I stay out of it.

 

I made this same mistake when Newlie was dying of cancer. I so wanted him to eat because I knew if he didn't, it would be the end, but I finally realized that he was feeling my desperation and that was only making things worse.

 

I never mess with my dogs food while they are eating.

Why?

All three have zero sense of food guarding. In fact each will let the others eat out of their bowls, though I discourage it.

 

I am going to comment again and try to word it different.


Tonight, Ringo was lying on my bed. I walked into the bedroom and laid on top of him. All he did was kiss me. I can put my face in his bowl and he ignores me. I can get down on the floor with him and wrestle and say "ouch", he will stop playing and lick me trying to help me. I can raise my voice and he will stop what he is doing. This is the type of dog I want, one that is safe and caring and knowledgable which he is.



I know this may be different if someone else tried to do these things with him but I believe with the character that my dog Ringo holds because of the actions I have taken with him and who he is he would not react the same to these situations as some other dogs would. I believe that you not only have to be a trainer but best friends with your dog. Get close, get down there, be in his world for a bit and he will understand you better. My dog is a fearful dog. He was taken away from his parents at 3 1/2 weeks old. He used to be scared of a lot of things in and out of the house. Not so much now and only after a year and a half of him being here. I think that is pretty good. I can trust him if a kid goes near his food or jumps on him or pulls his ears. I feel safe having people around because of who Ringo is and how much he has learned. Should you bother them while they eat.... That's up to everyone out there who owns any dog. I want people to feel they can bring kids here and all will be well. Sorry if this was a bit long. I hope I explained things a bit better this time.

 

LOVE this one... people are taking this topic to extremes if you ask me. I agree with Bigguy. I have NEVER had a dog that would growl when eating period. I may have chose to add extra food or maybe pet them while I commend them for eating, but I truly feel if I never messed with them while eating NOTHING would ever have happened anyway.

I have only had dog's that loved kid's and would never think about growling or protecting anything from my kid's and now my grandkids. Maybe I am just lucky. Maybe I am lucky to have a great breeder.

 

I have a baby puppy out there in the family with a baby. The mom told me she keeps taking the pup's bones away to ensure that the baby will not get nailed if he touches the bone.

I told her, "you are creating problems by doing that. If the bones are getting snatched away, then the puppy will be more likely to guard them/be protective of them."

What I need is a book of situations and how to respond to them in short, non-judgemental, easy to say and easy to hear remarks that will get your point across with the best chance of people taking heed.

For example, the people get a puppy, and they are all set up to do classes with the puppy. But the kid visits the ER, and now both parents agree, no non-essential spending. Puppy classes go out the window. We need a quick and easy statement that is reasonable, non-judgemental, and will get the puppy and owners the classes they need. Something like, "Puppy classes/ obedience classes are essential for dogs that can disable a full-grown man." That might work better than, "More puppies lose their lives prematurely due to lack of training than any other reason." or, "Most dogs that have landed in shelters have never been taken to classes."

 

This thread came at a good time and a reminder. My oldest son and his gf just got a 8 wk old pup. I went to see the little sweetie and gf mentioned that she was doing the hand in bowl thing. I asked her if he acted aggressively or started to eat faster. She said no, he is really good. so I said why bother him if there isn't an issue.

Don't fix what isn't broken. Otoh, I don't see any issue with every once in a while adding a bit more to the bowl, especially when they are just about finished and realizes that more is being added.

My own guy at 8weeks old snarled at me the first time my hand went near the bowl. I put my hand right in there. He didn't snap at me but he sure scoffed the food down. I figured he must have had to fight for a position at the communal puppy feeding bowl. So for the most part I left him alone but also made sure that I gave extra every so often. It worked like a charm.

 

Claiming and attempted ownership is exhibited throughout the spectrum of a dog's behaviors.....it's innate and it's certainly not limited to food......I see it no different than a ball/toy.....bone.....resting spot...etc.....but it's all the same with many dogs...precedent is guaranteed to be set and then further established... whether the behavior is dictated by the human or the dog.....the outcome should be fairly obvious based upon the course one takes. I expect a dog to resource guard....if they didn't at any point in their early life....I'd be surprised.



Those that have established the proper precedent and interaction regarding control of a dog's resources most likely will never have a problem with their dog but unfortunately that "respect" is not a "transferable" right that everybody else gets......


I'll take whatever I choose from my dogs....but I wouldn't advise others to unless I'm there to supervise.




SuperG

 

And this is EXACTLY why I teach all of my dogs that kids get a pass! I don't ask or expect my dogs not to guard stuff from another adult, but I INSIST that they give small children a pass to do whatever they do... Tolerate it or move away! Period! No other options EVER! Any and all aggression toward a small child is met with severe consequences, immediately and without a second of hesitation. Just what has worked for me, not the holy grail...

 

The "respect" isn't transferable, but, the idea in the dog's brain that if they don't be careful someone is going to snag away their bone IS transferable. And that is why I am trying to tell that lady, short and sweet, but convincingly not to create the issue.

 

Unfortunately in this case this lady very likely will get what you said, but it's also very likely it'll be her child getting bitten that really gets your point through to her. I can only imagine how hard it must be to know that and still not be able to convince her!

Would puppy obedience classes help in this situation? I mean, it couldn't hurt, but it seems like an issue that's outside of the purview of a puppy class...

 

There will always be some people with situations that aren't ideal. I've lived in a small home as well and I can't imagine 4 people and 2 dogs living in such a tight space without the humans getting annoyed with each other, never mind the dogs.

Even in my camper I keep the dog separated when they eat and I'd direct kids to sit on the couch or chair and keep busy with something while the dogs ate. It's not like the food is down all day. It's ten minutes a meal most days.

 

If the dogs know without a doubt that you will make sure they eat in peace and not bothered they will have no worries and no one else will have worries including kids ,people, other pets in home.

 

Isn't some training of "bothering" the dog when they are eating necessary? I think the dog either has to have a very solid drop it/stop it command that can stop them from eating or they have to be fine with human messing their food. Or else how do you stop them when they try to eat stuff that they are not supposed to eat? I personally 'mess' with my dog's food frequently by adding food into the bowl and ask her to stop eating and get some really good treats before she can resume again. Maybe I am just lucky since my dog has 0 handler aggression issues, but I feel like this training is very essential to every dog especially near areas with dead squirrels/dead pigeons/homeless' leftover.

 

It seems to me that there are sort of 2 conversations going on here simultaneously. I personally don't see this as a question relating to food and/or feeding time only. Though I don't and never will bother my dog while she's eating, and to the extent possible I don't allow kids to either. I don't hand feed except for treats during training (though I can see the value for helping an older dog get over a resource guarding issue). And I don't take things from my dog, unless it's a safety issue, for practice or training.

Just my opinion, but if I were trying to train a dog to resource guard their food, I'd do it by messing with their food frequently and sometimes even taking it away from them. That way, everytime you come close to them while they're eating they'd have reason to worry! Trust is what keeps a dog from resource guarding food, not messing with them!

But what about toys, or a favorite spot on the couch? What about accidental bumping? I'm curious to hear how you folks who so carefully guard your dogs while eating address your dog's other resource behaviors, rather than just stating over and over that a dog should eat in peace...

I don't doubt at all that my dog would bite an adult that came up and tried to take her bone, or something else she viewed as a high value item, and that's totally understandable - I would expect that from most dogs. And I would not correct her for that. If she did that to me it would be a very different outcome though...not that I do this, or suggest anyone do this! I don't "grab" anything from my dog! If I need to take something away I'd tell her to drop it and leave it. That being said, if a small child were to try and take her bone, I am confident she'd take her bone and go elsewhere, or leave it and look to me for help!

 

Okay well speaking for myself, I DON'T "carefully guard" my dogs while eating. My one dog eats out of the thing that holds the water bowl. You know, the bowl holder has two bowls. If I see the water bowl is low when I put down her food, I'll fill it and put the water bowl back in while she is eating. She doesn't care. Neither do I. So-- I think for myself and my dogs I would say I don't take any special care other than not to deliberately bug them.

Except for my one who is dysfunctional and it's my fault, and he does eat around a corner like I said so he has privacy. But the door to the laundry room is over there and if I need to go switch laundry while he eats i do, which necessitates walking around close to him and sometimes asking him to scoot his butt over so I could get by. I wouldn't say I do that often but if it needs doing, I wouldn't NOT switch the laundry or carry on with my life just because he is eating.

They know the difference, I think. If I am carrying on with my normal life it does not involve their meal and they know it. So I make no effort to change anything I would ordinarily do.

As for furniture...well, to be honest we all have our spots that we like and usually the dogs are in theirs so mine is available. And honestly if they are in my spot I usually just take their spot. They would all move if I asked them to. But if my dog is sleeping I wouldn't typically wake him up to make him move so I can sit there. Exception to that being that my husband sometimes goes to bed before my and my big male will totally hog my entire side of the king size bed, he's that big, and he lays on my pillow. So I DO wake him up and move him to the foot of the bed when I go to bed, and he has never given me any trouble. I am polite about it. But I literally can't go to bed unless he moves LOL

Anything small enough to fit in the mouth, if there seems to be any guardiness or unwillingness to drop then we practice trade-ups and big reward outs etc.

I even trade puppies for loot because I'd rather they bring it to me than run away with it.

But everything in moderation, and I will grimlly walk a dog down to take what they have with no reward if I don't happen to have one, and it needs to be done.

Everything in moderation and they know what the "usual" is. "usually", I am fair and nice and give them good things for cooperating. And they joyfully cooperate. Maybe every once in a blue moon I make a mistake or I am grouchy and I lose my patience and I don't act as nice. They aren't little flowers who will wither and die the first cross word they hear... I am a firm believer that dogs are totally fine if something unfair or uncool is the outlier if you know what I mean.

Heck, I overlook their "outlier" behavior if it's real out of the ordinary or extenuating circumstances or whatever. My old girl growled at me for the first time in her life after having a tooth removed and she had not yet come out of the drugs totally and I was in her face. The drugs have a weird effect on her anyway. 11 yrs first growl. I just said sorry and left her alone.I totally think they can do the same with us if you know what I mean.

When my father visited with an elderly and frail friend I asked all the dogs to stay off the furniture while they were here. I told them to go stay on the dog beds and they did.

I tend to have dogs that are pretty good natured, pretty cooperative, etc. Maybe I select that kind? I like my house mellow and friendly. I'm mostly mellow and friendly toward them. They mostly are the same back to me

 

Well, I teach leave it from bait food I have put on the ground or floor for that purpose. And actually i put food on the floor where i train enough that it is implied that you dont just vacuum up anything you see on the floor. But that is something I do while training. It has nothing to do with a meal. And in the learning phases I put low value on the floor and reward with higher value for not touching it.

Service dogs have to have some food avoidance training. Once on a flight, my seat mate put down a chicken salad on the floor by my service dog. She showed no interest which is appropriate for a working sd.

And rally has distraction food bowls in some exercises so I do also put down food bowls with food that I train around. But it is clear to my dogs that we are working, not having a meal.

When I give them a meal I just think it would be rude to be like by the way stop eating and now do something else. I would be irritated if the restaraunt served me my food and just as I was taking a bite they said sorry you need to switch to another table.

But I walk by delicious meals being seated at the restaraunt... I dont obviously have the expectation of eating until it has been given to me to eat. I dont think it annoys my dogs to learn to refuse food while training. Anyway it is something they have to learn. They know this isn't meal time.

Any dog ought to be able to learn to leave it, call off , or ignore certain things at certain times, I just don't think meal tines ought to be part of it

 

Well, I teach leave it from bait food I have put on the ground or floor for that purpose. And actually i put food on the floor where i train enough that it is implied that you dont just vacuum up anything you see on the floor. But that is something I do while training. It has nothing to do with a meal. And in the learning phases I put low value on the floor and reward with higher value for not touching it.

I probably shouldn't reply to this....my response will be off topic but.......I've always had this splitting hairs attitude....semantics perhaps...about people teaching "leave it" the way you described above.


You probably have another command for an obedience discipline which means the dog will never ever as in ever never ever take possession of specific objects......like venomous snakes, crap, mushrooms, electrical cords, poisonous materials etc....things which could injure/kill your dog I suppose. Rewarding a dog with the "leave it" item.....just doesn't make sense to me.


SuperG

 

Yeah I don’t feel as so much as I have to guard food but yes I do have to watch our chihuahua does respect feeding time and does not steal food and commit suicide. He eats in the crate. Last week a tiny screw on the counter above his food blwl into max bowl I had to sift it out and did not think twice about. I added some ham afterward just because. I don’t feed them during crazy party madness although they will pick up what’s one the floor without fighting over anything as they learned no one will miss out. Anything will need to be taken away will be given a really good people food treat. I do not do raw feeding so that makes things easier although once in awhile they will get something raw. Max actually sleeps with his head on the pillow in my bed. Kids can barge in and take over his spot anytime or he just has to make room. Otherwise he would sleep downstairs. Same with Luna. They seem to have their spots. To get them off the couch it’s is not a fight i do not pull them off but come here max or Luna. Or to be honest There will be times I will scream get off my couch!!! Our chihauahu topper will guard his toys with the shepherds not us so they get put awAy because he no longer enjoys them but wants to guard them from max and Luna who could care less. When I was sick my mom sent over a cleaning friend -max always would steal her swifter dusters he looked forward to it a weird habit he wanted her to chase him around . I could get it easily and would switch it out with a toy- body language is important as to say I’m not playing.I can give max and Luna bones and they can enjoy them laying next to each other sometimes they may switch each other’s bones but they are the same. Photo of the enjoying their sheep horns together. My daughter stealing everyone’s spot - they readjust. All this I agree would chock this up to their good nature

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Boy, I love my dogs. When the girls were little, little, when two of them had to get together to drag the food bucket and feed the dogs. At one point, Ninja was eating the food they put down, and Elena felt she needed to stick her hand into the bowl to do something. I was, of course, too far away to stop a lightning fast bite. But there wasn't a snarl, growl or even a grump. it was a non-happening. Why? Because my dogs are not conditioned to believe that people are going to take away their food.

And if I have to get a pill or a broken bottle or a bit of something nasty out of their mouthes, I have always been able to put my hand in to their mouths and extract ANYTHING. It is really rare that I have to do that, but I have. I am not wearing scars from this. Actually, it is another non-happening. If my hand goes into my dogs' mouths, they never bite down.

I don't know why I am so lucky. I don't deserve to be so lucky. I have not trained them to accept anything from me, and to expect anything from me. They just do. I'm lucky. I love my dogs.

 

I had to get a chicken leg bone out of my dog's throat this week. Some idiot left fried chicken bones on a playground we were doing some urban agility on. My dog went to sniff and I heard a crunch. I used our "phooey" command and I reached inside her mouth and pulled out the entire bone from her throat. This could have gone wrong in so many ways but my girl was completely calm about it. We've never made a big deal about taking her food away. At home, She's more concerned about my big-boy taking her food away. But we ALWAYS give them safe places to eat where they won't be bothered.

All of my dogs have been like this, mutts and purebreed. Sometimes I need to take something away. It happens so rarely that I guess my dogs don't fret about it.

Now if I could have found the person that had been careless about the bones, I might not have been so pleasant and calm to them! That could have hurt my gal-dog badly.

 

My dogs all were adopted and they all have been good natured. Of course, I went looking for good natured dogs, but lots of other people did, too, and ended up with something completely different, so luck played a large part in it as well. My dogs eat in the middle of my kitchen with me whipping back and forth around them and even, in Rocky's case, stepping over them with no problem. They wag their tails if I pat them on the back as I go by and they have all liked their food and had good appetites. They have also been trustworthy around children. I will never forget a relative's nephew who was at my house and was fascinated by my 90 pound dog, Max. He was maybe 4 years old and wanted to feed Max and I showed him how to put bits of food on his open palm for Max to take, but he kept forgetting. I was worrying but didn't need to. Max very gently licked whatever crumbs he was offering from between his fingers. The picture of that little boy sitting on the doggie bed with my big dog, who was probably three times his size, and feeding him morsels of food has always stayed in my mind.

 

I was worrying but didn't need to. Max very gently licked whatever crumbs he was offering from between his fingers. The picture of that little boy sitting on the doggie bed with my big dog, who was probably three times his size, and feeding him morsels of food has always stayed in my mind.

I remember, many years ago when my daughter was about a year old. I came home and found her feeding our German Shepherd bits of bologna. That big dog was so so so careful taking the bologna from her tiny fingers, it was amazing. This dog was from the shelter and wow, we lucked out with him He was fabulous with our daughter.

 

The Alpha thing is BS. Any dog who thinks they are Alpha is a stupid as a cat. See the research of Dr. John Bradshaw. There is no evidence that dominance is a character trait of individual dogs -- particularly against humans.

With all of my dogs, a baby could walk up and take their food right in front of them. The dog will try to eat quickly but there will be no aggression. I handle them and their food any way I want to, even if they have their face stuck in the bowl. They are smart enough to know who gave them the food. They are also smart enough to know that even the baby is boss.

 

For me i am in the group that does mess with the dog while it is eating, from the day i get the dog i put my face in its bowl, hands and feet near the bowl. I did it with both of my GSD and the golden, all of them will back off and just wait. I do it for two reasons first one is i want my dogs not to be food guarding or food aggressive, second reason is if i am away and a friend or family member is watching the dogs they can feed them without any problems and take the bowl away with no problems. I have seen what happens when a dog is not use to people messing around with it while it is eating it is scary to watch.

 

Agreed. Family dogs must never show aggression against any family member or friend. If there is any situation in which they do, they must be trained out of it. Food included.

 

Someone was talking on another thread about choosing the hill you die on. That's where I stand.

IF I ran across a dog that was seriously food aggressive I suppose I would just segregate the dog. But as I stated before for all the crappy, unbalanced, poorly bred dogs that have shared my home over the years I have yet to find one. Which begs the question where are these "demon" dogs coming from? I have my suspicions.

Bud had been starved and was defensive about food. I opted to bypass that particular issue in fairness to him. I believe I could have corrected it but with history and more pressing issues, knowing he would stay with me, I made a choice.

Shadow is a weak nerved, fear aggressive mess. She only eats with me near, and in fact some times needs me to stand over her or keep her dish in my lap.


Sabi would have eaten herself to death, a true food pig. She never showed the slightest aggression about food and the kids often fed her by hand.


Mori had no human contact until I brought her home, and was kenneled with other dogs. She never showed any aggression about food. Not a trace.

 

Just my opinion, but if I were trying to train a dog to resource guard their food, I'd do it by messing with their food frequently and sometimes even taking it away from them. That way, everytime you come close to them while they're eating they'd have reason to worry! Trust is what keeps a dog from resource guarding food IMHO, not messing with them!

That being said, nearly half of the respondents to this thread strongly believe that messing with a dog's food prevents food aggression! Proving once again, there is no one "right" approach!

If whatever you're doing is working for you and your dog, it IS the right method. If it isn't, this thread certainly has plenty of alternative approaches you could try > The main thing is not letting yourself or your kids get bit in the process!

 

I think you make a valid point, and you do NOT want to give them any reason to worry. That's exactly why I'm on the side of mess with their food. I'm not trying to show dominance, I'm not trying to take away their food; I am, however, trying to establish that there is no need for any response just because I am near (messing with, adding, moving, etc.) their food (other than maybe a positive response as it may mean I'm adding in a goody). In my mind, it's about desensitizing the instinct to protect their food. Maybe I'm not saying that "correctly" but, I mean that in so much as they have no reason to worry about this silly human putting his hands in my food. I want them to be used to me bumbling around while they are eating. I want them to know that me messing with their food is not a reason to expect it to disappear. I get eating is instinctual, and instincts are instincts - but, we leverage K9 instincts all the time with specific training protocols both to heighten and reduce certain instinctual drives.

If you want to train a dog to not be afraid or aggressive towards other dogs - do you never introduce them to other dogs? Or do you introduce them to other dogs early and often so they know how to behave? If you want a dog to walk on a leash, do you never put a leash on a dog until you need it -- or do you train for that? If you want to ensure pleasant behavior, you can hope that it just naturally happens - or you can plan for success. I'm no pro trainer, but, to me it seems like this is akin to many other things we train. Maybe I'm crazy, maybe it all about how people approach meal time {I actually do think this is a big part of it, especially with regards to training feeding behaviors}, maybe I've just always been lucky in that any dog's we've ever had just happened to not mind us messing with their food. IDK but what I've always done works, and since it has I will keep at it. Having said that, this is my first GSD - and I get they have their own uniqueness - so maybe in a year I'll be on the other side of the fence saying how I was wrong for all these years...

 

I will occasionally have a need to move Jax's bowl while he is eating (put it down in his regular spot then realize I need to empty the dishwasher and move it to the other side of the room after he's started), and sometimes I'll add things after he starts. Nether is done on purpose or with an intent to train behavior. However, it makes me happy that he has never given me an issue or any cause for concern if I have to touch his bowl while he is eating. I believe that he trusts everyone in the household enough to know that we only ever have good intentions. Also he has certainly never gone hungry lol, so he would have no reason to get worked up about it. I would never mess with his bowl or food in an effort to establish a type of dominance. I expect him to leave me alone while I eat and give him the same respect.

 

Absolutely agree that trust overcomes most issues. Most of Shadows success as a pet is owed to implicit and unwaivering faith in me. Probably more then I deserve. The same trust that kept Bud alive for 14 years.
If the newest of owners would understand the vital importance of developing a relationship with Fido before making demands many issues would be avoided.