Yes that's exactly how it works. Lol!

 

I believe so, it's what my dogs would do.

I really needed to smile. Thank you!

 

Lmao!

Yes, your dog is defective, the ac vent won't give him puppies.

 

Lol! I think that is about what my guy would do if I tossed a rolled up towel at him. "Oh you want to play!" I threw a pillow at him once when he was bugging his sister and he was unfazed. Just like oh cool, and then I had to take it away because he thought it was a toy...

 

A long time ago I'd probably make a comment along the lines of "You throw like a girl" I'm a lot more enlightened now, so I'll just point out the contradiction of toss vs bonk. If you're tossin, it ain't bonkin.

 

I suppose some one like Nolan Ryan could toss a rolled up towel hard enough to make it work.

It's a technique that might work with soft, skittish, nervous dogs. A GSD with a good temperament would just use it as a toy and think it was a game.

Not a technique that I would use or rely on. We train narcotics detection dogs by throwing a rolled up towel to them, hitting directly above their head as a reward. We hit the source of the odor pretty hard and throw the towel really fast to reward. The idea is to simulate the towel exploding from the aid as the dog locks up and puts it's nose to source. Occasionally, a dog gets "bonked" and they find it to be a fun part of the game. That is the only time I would throw a rolled up towel at a dog. As a reward, not a punishment or to startle.

 

Definitely made me smile.

 

What's a bonker, Precious??

 

Or Jenny Finch, Jim. Its 2017.

 

Give me a minute to google "Jenny Finch."

 

https://youtu.be/gm9iZnqGMvY

Yes, she could probably throw a towel pretty hard.

 

Softball chick.

 

This goes back to William Koehler's much maligned book on training guard dogs, only he used a choke chain, because the noise would startle the dog. And I suppose if you tossed a choke chain hard enough, you COULD make it hurt, but that wasn't the idea. It was supposed to be a distraction, not a punishment.

 

Wait, can you say chick? Which is the bad one, chickie?

 

Bonkers... there is no magic there. Also, I don't want my dogs skittish of thrown objects, for reasons Jim described when giving rewards.

There is more effective training and the video demos of the bonker being used make me a bit sick. Poor timing, dog doesn't "get" it, and the trainer himself comes across as both arrogant to the people in the seminar and untrustworthy to the dog.

I'd like to see him try to "bonk" a certain one of my dogs to stop a behavior... that would be fun.

There are better ways to train a dog than with a bonker, and personally I don't like much of what I've seen of Gary Wilkes' training.

 

Pm sent

 

You know those shake cans that some people think are a great tool for disciplining your dog? :rolleyes2:

Well, I had one of those for temperament testing Star as a pup, when I went to pick her up from the breeder. She wanted to play with it... :laugh2:

I knew right then I was picking the right pup!

What really sealed the deal was afterwards when she climbed into my lap, and curled up... uppy:

 

I'm so glad I found this thread. I came here looking for answers after someone posted a Gary Wilkes video on a GSD Facebook page I'm part of.

The chat errupted in curses about how much of an idiot the guy is and how wrong his stuff is, and when I asked what to look for (because the dog didn't really seem too bothered) I got told to stop hijacking someone else's thread. I'm not an advocate of positive punishment, just a new dog owner looking to educate myself beyond a knee-jerk emotional response of "it makes me sad when I hurt my dog" - that reason makes little sense to me as I was raised with corporal punishment.

I decided to leave the group - I didn't like the tendency toward emotional decision making without critical discussion.

Rant over.

I'm glad I came here where it seems cooler heads are pointing out the flaws without resorting to name calling - I myself have found that whenever I (in moments I am not proud of) have had to get physical with Chuck (for instance when he's hanging off my leg) he just thinks I'm joining in with the game.

Am I correct in thinking that this is one of the major flaws of positive punishment in the hands of an amateur?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

LMAO!! When I hear positive punishment my mind goes to fifty shades of Grey. Not dog training.
Per the bonker technique. All of my dogs would think it was a game. Which they would associate with the unwanted behavior. Oh I stick my face in the vent I get a cool new chew toy.

 

Reminds me of a "behaviorist" who used a spray bottle to correct a working-line malinois. The spray bottle was quickly dispatched by the dog, and the behaviorist deemed him untrainable and "feral" type. Behaviorist was so wrong about the dog, who is one of the most stable-social dogs I've met and indeed very trainable once you understand this type of dog. Spray bottles are for cats, in my opinion (nothing against cats, but they work nicely for cats that eat stuff they shouldn't, etc.)

Punishment can be anything the dog doesn't like. By nature of what it is, it is something that makes the dog less likely to do something. With an amateur trainer, it's more about understanding how to communicate properly what you like and what you don't want, to the dog, rather than anything else. Some of that is timing, but not all.

 

Ok, I admit it. I bonked my boy over the head with a bag that had a sweater in it. we were walking to the church parking lot that has a Good Will box for clothing donations. On the way, he sees a dog and starts to stiffen. I really was tired of the same o same o collar correction so... bonk right on top of the head. No startle, no fear, he just looked up at me like really?????. I looked at him like yup and if you don't mind you're Ps and Qs I'll do it again.>

 

I've thrown a small throw pillow at Scarlet before, to interrupt her shenanigans. She thought it was a fun new game I'd invented. If I had gone over and whacked her on the head with it, she would've loved it even more. No, I don't think the bonker was made for her. She's not a very delicate girl, lol.

 

Chip,
To be very clear, I DO NOT use the "bonker!" I do not train dogs that way. I do not advocate the "bonker" and I do not like how Gary Wilkes uses it. I am not a fan of Gary Wilkes training and I have expressed many times, very clearly the training methods that I use.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" by any means. You are advocating a training technique that you have endorsed and included links to videos of Wilkes training in the past. Now, you say that you have not found the need to use a "bonker", because you can train dogs? You then say the "bonker" thing is not about you, but the only place that I have seen it mentioned has been on this forum by you. I'm on a lot of dog forums and work with a lot of dog people, the only posts that I have seen it referred to are posts by you. Yes, you are the messenger and before recommending a training technique, I think you should have first hand experience with the training method to propose it.

If there are thousands of novices that are attending Gary Wilkes seminars as you say, that do not know how to train dogs, well that is unfortunate and very concerning. People need to have a clear understanding of the effects of compulsion on dogs. The people that adopt rescue dogs that certainly have baggage and issues need a better method to rehabilitate and train their dog than throwing things at the poor dog. A bonker is clearly not the answer, IMHO.

Geez, talk about compounding issues and eroding trust.

 

Chip,
To be very clear, I DO NOT use the "bonker!" I do not train dogs that way. I do not advocate the "bonker" and I do not like how Gary Wilkes uses it. I am not a fan of Gary Wilkes training and I have expressed many times, very clearly the training methods that I use.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" by any means. You are advocating a training technique that you have endorsed and included links to videos of Wilkes training in the past. Now, you say that you have not found the need to use a "bonker", because you can train dogs? You then say the "bonker" thing is not about you, but the only place that I have seen it mentioned has been on this forum by you. I'm on a lot of dog forums and work with a lot of dog people, the only posts that I have seen it referred to are posts by you. Yes, you are the messenger and before recommending a training technique, I think you should have first hand experience with the training method to propose it.

If there are thousands of novices that are attending Gary Wilkes seminars as you say, that do not know how to train dogs, well that is unfortunate and very concerning. People need to have a clear understanding of the effects of compulsion on dogs. The people that adopt rescue dogs that certainly have baggage and issues need a better method to rehabilitate and train their dog than throwing things at the poor dog. A bonker is clearly not the answer, IMHO.

Geez, talk about compounding issues and eroding trust.

Ah well ... as a wise philosopher once said ... "Don't have a cow man." :

You said ..."No, I do not use a "bonker" for training in the method described to punish a dog. I use a taped rolled up towel as a reward. It is thrown at the source of the odor to reward the dog, not to startle, scare, punish or correct a dog."


While that it is not it's intended use ... you explained it well and there is no confusion with how you use a "Bonker." Pretty creative I'd say and no there is no "confusion" with how you use ... uh that tool. You could have easily called it something else and most likely ... I'm the only that would have said ... "hey wait a minute???" Most likely ... if I did what you do??? I would ask you about how you use the "Bonker thing???" I really don't see how how that would be a bad thing???

Moving on well ... nope I don't use a "Bonker" because I know how to train a dog. But the "Bonker" as I've said ... it is not about me! But ... I get it and if as you say all site reference me??? Then no problem, if people care that much ... then they will also see this ....

https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39?ref=br_rs

And they will see my note ... to ask him and be "respectful" because he does not bare fools well!! You have been warned! But you know by and large people don't go there or here for "Bonker" questions ... they simply come to me. Believe it or not ...not everyone is satisfied with "Find a trainer" as the best advice??? So when I am not doing stuff like well uh "this" that's what I do answer question in "PM's." I remember what it is like to "struggle" with a dog and I got it done on my own without ... "Finding a Training" thank you very much and yep ... I got them stitches! So you know ... don't do what I did to make that happen! But bottom line ... I got it done and my "Soft, Squishy Dog" is still here.

So ... I don't need to use a "Bonker" but I don't have Counter Surfing, Cat Chasing, Door Bolting, yard escaping dogs to contend with. For those that do ... the proper application of a "Bonker" will stop that crap ... right freaking now! I have seen Gary Wilkes use a "Bonker" as a freaking club??? That surprised even me! But you know ... the dog was fine! The dog understood clearly ... that his behaviour caused "that" particular "consequence!" So for the dog... if I don't do that ... nothing bad happens ???

I really don't care about hand picked, perfect temperament, prima donna puppies that also happen to like people. Distract and treat away ... if those dogs//puppies are not a bite risk ...it makes no difference been there done that. But if one does not happen to get a dog like that ... then they best get it right out the gate or Law Suites and PTS it is! "Zero Bite" risk policy is how I roll ... no apologies. I remember where I came from and while I went to ER ... my dog my problem ... no stranger involvement ... good enough, I roll hard as it were no problem.

But back on pointe ... if people and thousands if not millions of them have an unsolvable issue ... for them, have a behaviour with there dogs that they cannot solve?? Then yep ... "Bonk" away if they can stop "whatever " that particular issue is "right freaking now." Then they are more likely to keep their dog and then proceed from there to actually training their dog, if they can stop whatever it is right freaking now. Then they can see light at the end of the tunnel as it were and actually "Training their dogs will seem like a good idea??? It seems fairly simple to me???

But whatever, I don't really see the point in going to a dog forum and having people tell one to "Find a Trainer" myself??? Most likely that is a lack of imagination on my part but ... what are you gonna do??? Nuff said.

 

I have been to dozens and dozens of seminars by some of the foremost trainers in world, most of people I see going to seminars are people who are either trainers or dog handlers, usually trying to expand their knowledge base. I have found that people that have dogs with life threatening behaviors that know nothing about dog training, reach out to experienced people,( trainers, behaviorist, vets,etc) to get fixes as opposed to waiting to schedule their time to attend a seminar which probably is available in their area every couple years.
Or at the very least they enroll in local obedience school.

 

Chip,
It is nice and admirable that you offer to help people on the internet with their dogs. I also help people online as well as in person with their dogs. However, my experience comes from working and training a variety of dogs in the real world in several disciplines. However, we must be sure the advice and methodologies that we recommend are sound. We also must ensure that the advice we give will work for the dog and handler, safely and effectively.

There are many training techniques that will work for some handlers and dogs. Those same techniques may cause a different dog to become aggressive and redirect to their handler. One technique that may work with a certain type of dog may shut another dog down and be detrimental. If someone has a rescue dog or a shelter dog, then the dog needs to be handled and trained differently. The dog may have been abused, have separation anxiety, temperament issues, etc. To throw things at a dog like that is not helping the situation for many dogs and owners. I'm not into quick fixes, and just hammering a dog to behave and conform. Few issues need to be "fixed right now." and that approach leaves a lot to be desired.

People that understand training and have experience will often recommend seeking out professional help. I will often recommend seeking out a knowledgeable trainer. Not because I can not offer advice or suggestions, but like others I know that seeing a dog in person is the best way to go. Sometimes owners can not accurately describe or diagnose what they are seeing in their dog's behavior. Sometimes what they think they see is not at all what is happening. If you base your advice on what your are told, you could be really off base. Giving advice without seeing a dog is a slippery slope, what works for one dog and handler may be very detrimental for another dog and handler. That is why the experienced members often reply that a trainer is needed.

 

Slamdunc I always enjoy your posts and appreciate the time you take to share your extensive real world experience.

I say that to piggyback on your point below:

I've learned a lot from you and others posts on here. And from simple reading and watching videos, I've learned enough to train my puppy to a level that the average person finds exceptional and as a matter of fact even earned me some rarely given impressed kudos from my trainer for the hard consistent work I've put in.

But I still paid good money for a trainer for two reasons
1) a trainer is there really to train YOU not the dog. They watch the dog and you develop a plan and teach you how to train your dog. Practice makes perfect, Steph Curry didn't get that perfect jumper from shoot around at highschool bball practice.

2) Animals speak mostly through body language, that includes humans by the way! You're not watching yourself when you're training, if you don't have the experience there's a million different things you could be doing that's holding your dog back. You CANNOT learn that from a book, video, or the internet.

 

"if people and thousands if not millions of them have an unsolvable issue ... for them, have a behaviour with there dogs that they cannot solve?? Then yep ... "Bonk" away if they can stop "whatever " that particular issue is "right freaking now." Then they are more likely to keep their dog and then proceed from there to actually training their dog, if they can stop whatever it is right freaking now. Then they can see light at the end of the tunnel as it were and actually "Training their dogs will seem like a good idea??? It seems fairly simple to me???"

I THINK what he's trying to say is, if you don't know how to train your dog, and you've lost control temporarily, (and your dog is about to dash out the door, for example, and maybe get run over) throwing something at it in an attempt to distract it and interrupt the behaviour MAY save its life.

Then, once they've saved its life, maybe "training their dogs will seem like a good idea??"

(And yes, that's Chip's usual writing style.)

But of course, you have to wonder why the idea of training the dog first doesn't occur to them.

Arrrgh. I think the bonker is a horrible idea as a training tool, BUT if my dog was focusing on something that was about to get it into trouble, and I wasn't able to do a leash correction, I'd do WHATEVER I could to get its attention and distract it. And that MIGHT mean throwing something at it to break its focus.

I once hit my dog over the head with a paddle, because I'd foolishly let the leash get out of my reach, and she was about to jump out of the canoe, and dump us both into very, very cold water. That might have had serious, if not fatal, consequences for both of us. She was totally ignoring verbal corrections, and I had to act fast. The paddle was the only tool available, and she was SO fixated on jumping that I had to hit her more than once.

Needless to say, I didn't let that happen again!

 

Yeah I 100% understand what you're getting at, as the old proverb puts it "needs must when the devil drives".

I've done things like check my puppy with my foot to the chest with a hard enough combined impact to knock her on her booty when I had food in my mouth and she went to chase the cat. I've smacked her on the snout for nipping me unexpectedly, ingrained reaction from years of kickboxing and boxing when you get hit... hit back. And I'd probably throw something at her if it was a life or death situation and I was out of better options.

I get it, is what I'm saying!

But those aren't training methods, they're desperation moves. Why would you teach that, hold seminars and include it, post youtube videos where you advocate that?

If you care enough to learn from any of the above, there are a whole host of better options to learn across the spectrum from pure positive to compulsion and everything in between.

The question of how do I stop X behavior is a simple google search away, part of that answer should include managing the situation to prevent said behavior. With an implied understanding that you do what you must to protect your dog from death. You don't need to build an entire method to train people who won't train their dog to explain that. It's a classic catch 22.

But bottom line for me is, somebody is getting money for a youtube video where he tells you to throw stuff at your out of control dogs head. And somebody actually comes on a dog specific forum full of people and resources that could probably teach you how to train your dog to drive and advocates in it's favor. :|

(OK the driving part may be a slight exaggeration lol)

 

The bonker is a veiled method of physical correction - that is hitting- the dog. I am not against physical corrections, in the right context, and when fair and clear to the dog, but lets come right out and say it, not give it the cute bonking name. Maybe then we can really get into how to train a dog, and communicate what we want and don't want, rather than hide behind a rolled towel. It's lots more complicated than that.