[Stonevintage]

Wow Solo - I didn't realize who you were until I opened that webpage. Thank you for having the courage and taking the time to drop in here. There are some from time to time that have a curiosity about wolf/dogs. I will refer them to your site in the future. It looks insightful with plenty of education and precautions.

What do you recommend to owners for training methods? Any difference than regular dogs - (individual as to temperament).

 

[dogma13]

Solo,what a beautiful tribute.

 

[Castlemaid]

What I find funny is that BYB of GSDs' will claim "Champion Bloodlines" if the dogs' pedigree has some titled dog six generations back.

But this breeder claims that the dog are not wolf-dogs because the wolf was six generations back?

I guess if it makes the breeder look good, six generation back is something to brag about; if it may cause issues, then the six generations back is not relevant anymore.

 

[Solo93]

What do you recommend to owners for training methods? Any difference than regular dogs - (individual as to temperament).

As you noted--individualised,as to temperament. For the foundation--the most critical part--I focus on the relationship as a whole: nonviolent & proactive leadership skills (some dogs might get away without a "boss", but not wolfdogs!), great 2-way communication, an understanding of canine social rules, and bonding! Enrichment, fun games, group walks, special treats for responding to commands.

I strongly recommend a loose No Free Lunch/NILIF type of program (more like "Little in Life is Free"), and do a lot of "focus" and "indirect access" stuff...because they are independent Northern mutts, and they need to learn that all good stuff comes from me, and you go through me to get what you want. I also make sure to do manners-building things like claim my space, and reward calm and prosocial behaviour. For example, when I ate dinner, I'd have 5 or 6 wolfdogs lying on the floor waiting, and when I finished I'd get up and drop a bit of leftover food in front of each one.

I use positive reinforcement to teach, managing the environment to prevent rehearsal of "bad" behaviours (this includes solid dog-proof fencing), redirect and then reward alternate behaviours, and I correct for deliberate disobedience. I also make sure that I'm consistent, and never give a command I can't/won't enforce. If I say "do X" then I need to make sure "X" happens...even if that means I assist the dog with the behaviour (& then I praise or reward for "getting it right", even if I helped).

I also watch their thresholds. Modern life can be overstimulating, and you don't want them to feel overwhelmed. I build plenty of quiet down-time and free play into their routine, and I make sure they get the company of other canines, because there are some things you as a human just can't compare to. Not necessarily true for, say, bully breeds or Akitas, but wolves are pretty gregarious with their own kind.

I think the stuff above is valid for pretty much ANY dog. It's just that you can slack off more with a lot of them, & they still turn out okay. Wolfdogs, if you give them an inch, some of them will take a mile. I never get rough with them (!) but I'm strict w.r.t. mental "discipline", and having them build self-control. The shy ones need structure and strong leadership just as much as the pushy ones do; it makes them a lot more secure.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

As you noted--individualised,as to temperament. For the foundation--the most critical part--I focus on the relationship as a whole: nonviolent & proactive leadership skills (some dogs might get away without a "boss", but not wolfdogs!), great 2-way communication, an understanding of canine social rules, and bonding! Enrichment, fun games, group walks, special treats for responding to commands.

I strongly recommend a loose No Free Lunch/NILIF type of program (more like "Little in Life is Free"), and do a lot of "focus" and "indirect access" stuff...because they are independent Northern mutts, and they need to learn that all good stuff comes from me, and you go through me to get what you want. I also make sure to do manners-building things like claim my space, and reward calm and prosocial behaviour. For example, when I ate dinner, I'd have 5 or 6 wolfdogs lying on the floor waiting, and when I finished I'd get up and drop a bit of leftover food in front of each one.

I use positive reinforcement to teach, managing the environment to prevent rehearsal of "bad" behaviours (this includes solid dog-proof fencing), redirect and then reward alternate behaviours, and I correct for deliberate disobedience. I also make sure that I'm consistent, and never give a command I can't/won't enforce. If I say "do X" then I need to make sure "X" happens...even if that means I assist the dog with the behaviour (& then I praise or reward for "getting it right", even if I helped).

I also watch their thresholds. Modern life can be overstimulating, and you don't want them to feel overwhelmed. I build plenty of quiet down-time and free play into their routine, and I make sure they get the company of other canines, because there are some things you as a human just can't compare to. Not necessarily true for, say, bully breeds or Akitas, but wolves are pretty gregarious with their own kind.

I think the stuff above is valid for pretty much ANY dog. It's just that you can slack off more with a lot of them, & they still turn out okay. Wolfdogs, if you give them an inch, some of them will take a mile. I never get rough with them (!) but I'm strict w.r.t. mental "discipline", and having them build self-control. The shy ones need structure and strong leadership just as much as the pushy ones do; it makes them a lot more secure.

As somebody that tends to own dogs in multiples, 4-6 large breed, I practice much of the above and totally agree with the part I bolded.

 

[Lilie]

Eye color is supposed to be amber like the Carpathian Wolf. But there's that GSD parentage and GSD's have brown eyes as virtually nearly all domestic dogs do.

Just a side note, the statement above is not correct. There are many (domestic) breeds with Amber eyes as well as Blue eyed breeds.

 

[Stonevintage]

All sounds like normal sound advise. Lol - I find it hilarious - some new GSD owners still think you have to have to Alpha roll their pups based on wolf pack theory and here you are successfully using and recommending training methods that are very much the opposite. I'm going to wright this link down so I can refer it to the next guy that posts here that believes you have to pin your dogs at every turn because that's what wolves do to each other.

I had mine in the late 70's thru the 80's - (Bill Wakefield pup) The wildlife biologist we got ours from had some very strict rules. We first he had us adopt a dog/puppy and train that one. He told us what to look for in breed and personality. We did. After 6 months, he had us bring our new GSD/AST pup out to his place and "we" were tested as to the training. We passed with flying colors and got some very good tips. That allowed us to have a 50/50 F1 but no higher%. The 3/4's only went to homes with higher % experience. His instructions to us were - anything that you train this dog pup to do you can train your hybrid to do. Having this dog trained will assist you in training your hybrid.

Looking back, I think this was partially to provide confidence in us so we wouldn't pass anything off as un-trainable and partially because of their love of companionship. A smart move on his part and I'm sure responsible for our success. Man, they had so much fun together! So many years of happy times and adventures in the forests. The only time they ever had leashes or collars on were for trips to the vet.

 

[Solo93]

All sounds like normal sound advise. Lol - I find it hilarious - some new GSD owners still think you have to have to Alpha roll their pups based on wolf pack theory and here you are successfully using and recommending training methods that are very much the opposite. I'm going to wright this link down so I can refer it to the next guy that posts here that believes you have to pin your dogs at every turn because that's what wolves do to each other.

I had mine in the late 70's thru the 80's - (Bill Wakefield pup) The wildlife biologist we got ours from had some very strict rules. We first he had us adopt a dog/puppy and train that one. He told us what to look for in breed and personality. We did. After 6 months, he had us bring our new GSD/AST pup out to his place and "we" were tested as to the training. We passed with flying colors and got some very good tips. That allowed us to have a 50/50 F1 but no higher%. The 3/4's only went to homes with higher % experience. His instructions to us were - anything that you train this dog pup to do you can train your hybrid to do. Having this dog trained will assist you in training your hybrid.

I like your breeder's conscientiousness! Wolfdogs do learn more quickly from other dogs, especially an adult role model...and most hate to be the only dog. The way you did it is great advice.

It is suprising to me, how few people really understand social dominance. You get the full gamut from "dominance doesn't exist" (wow...um, NO) to "dominance means to hit and roll your dog all the time just 'cause" (also **** no). Dominance exists to PREVENT violence, not cause it. It is an extremely useful concept when you fully understand it...but everybody wants it explained in a sound bite and that's just not possible. It's a whole hunk of their language, not just a side note.
This is the closest I've ever come to squeezing it into a sound bite ;-o Dominance overview Good luck getting most "overnight experts" to read the cover, let alone the details!

 

[Stonevintage]

Good stuff. I have to get ready for an appt. I briefly read thru and have a personal need (GSD 1.5 yrs old) to get this concept better absorbed.

I remember Dr. Mech issuing what many called a reversal on not necessarily dominance but pack structure. I treated his book like the bible way back It was hard for me to relearn what he explained after so many years of thinking one way.

I had the pleasure of conversing with Dr Mech a few years ago. There was a problem with a group of yahoos trying to kill off our local wolf packs by introducing Parvo infected puppies they adopted and intentionally got ill to stake out for meals for the wolves. I reported them and ended up on a conference call with F & G & Dr. Mech who looked up the teeter data for our packs and said it would not work for the yahoos because Parvo has been present here in our wild populations for some time.

I wanted prosecution, Dr. Mech was more for education than prosecution so the local F & G held a "town hall" meeting which was packed. It was made known at that meeting that F & G had the details and the names of those involved in the "plan".

Got to run. Thanks again for your time and all the info.

 

[Susan_GSD_mom]

I understand what you are saying about traits but I do believe that because many people haven't been around dogs with "extreme" traits they do attribute this to the wolf component.

The den digging behavior though - is one that I believe is an inherited trait that not many dog breeds express much anymore. The den that ours created under the house foundation was almost large enough to walk in. It's sides had old blankets and towels literally packed into the dirt sides. We never knew it existed for years because it was concealed by a wood deck.

I recently read a research paper, in "puzzle" tests the wolf demonstrates an 80% success rate where dogs of several breeds were only successful 20%. This translates into more "try" as in if your wolf/dog wants to escape your yard - he's probably going to do it lol.

I had mine from 18 days old to 13 1/3 years old. An amazing wonderful experience. I got lucky.

Mmmm, I wouldn't attribute it to luck. I had a number of them over the years, most mid content, a couple higher. I could call them ALL heart dogs, and none of them gave me as many issues as some of my WL GSDs, lol. And they were much easier to keep entire, due to the lower testosterone levels except during breeding season. It was an amazing run, then the state of Michigan outlawed them. I had a rescue at the time, and he still lived out his life with us. The week the law passed, my vet told me, "Well, he just turned into a German shepherd, didn't he." I know there had to be hundreds who made the same 'transformation,' even today. The problems come with poor ownership, not poor animals. Just like WL GSDs, Mals, Rotties, etc., they are NOT for everyone. I'd have another in a heartbeat.

Susan

 

[Stonevintage]

I would have another too if not for my age and the laws. Lol - mine was a wolf in GSD's clothing. He was always a GSD to anyone who asked as there were laws back then but they weren't enforsed and the rabies vaccine had not been deemed ineffective or really dealt with at all.

Mine was f1 and so 50% but his look, & build were all GSD except for the coat length (and sooo soft) and his eye shape. Other hybrid owners could spot it as we could spot theirs but to JQP it was a GSD. His color was black and silver with an agouti pattern but he was timber and not tundra so leg length and lighter color were not present.

I went thru some of the information on Solo's site yesterday. There's a comment in there about some of the extremes you may see that cracked me up - like you may find your wolf dog standing on top of the kitchen counter not just counter surfing) or you may find that they "buried a whole chicken in your laundry basket"lol

 

[NormanF]

The closest I want to get to owning a wolf is a GSD.

My dream dog is a Czech Wolfdog but its so rare and one needs lots of patience and tact to handle one.

Which is too much for most people and I'm just your average dog owner.

 

[Stonevintage]

You got that right Norman. I had a co-worker who ended up with a 3/4 wolf. Her husband was an animal control officer with our county and he picked it up as a stray. She mentioned it to me because she remembered I had one at one time.

I asked her some questions about their housing arrangements and their fencing. She said, well - we're in a subdivision and we're working on that but for now he spends most of his time out with the neighborhood kids like our Jack Russell's do running around in the street. Arrgh!

It half killed me to have to tell her about some realities, dangers and liabilities. You would have thought they would have known. As a result they re homed that beautiful animal 3 days later. Because he was AC he knew people out in the woods that had experience and could provide a good home. He really was a stunning looking animal.

 

[NormanF]

You got that right Norman. I had a co-worker who ended up with a 3/4 wolf. Her husband was an animal control officer with our county and he picked it up as a stray. She mentioned it to me because she remembered I had one at one time.

I asked her some questions about their housing arrangements and their fencing. She said, well - we're in a subdivision and we're working on that but for now he spends most of his time out with the neighborhood kids like our Jack Russell's do running around in the street. Arrgh!

It half killed me to have to tell her about some realities, dangers and liabilities. You would have thought they would have known. As a result they re homed that beautiful animal 3 days later. Because he was AC he knew people out in the woods that had experience and could provide a good home. He really was a stunning looking animal.

A wolf-dog needs lots of space to roam around and requires a well-fenced yard to be happy. It won't tolerate living in a confined space like a dog can. If people can't provide those things, a wolf-dog isn't for them.

 

[cdwoodcox]

I was reading the testimonials...This breeder allowed a puppy buyer to take a puppy home at 3 weeks???? Yikes...read the Elara testimonial...

Owner Testimonials - *Blue Bay Shepherds

Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.

 

[Solo93]

Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.

Three weeks is appropriate for mid content wolfdogs...probably not necessary for Blue Bays, but not harmful either as long as the adopter is trained. More thoughts here. age It really should be determined individually for each situation.

 

[cdwoodcox]

Since a few of you that have commented on here are seem very knowledgeable on wolves. I read somewhere that wolf hybrids have a very different socialization period than regular dogs. 3 weeks on is when the bonding really takes place. Wait until 8 weeks and you have missed a lot of very important bonding . Any truth to this and are these pups too far removed from wolf blood for it to matter anyway.

Three weeks is appropriate for mid content wolfdogs...probably not necessary for Blue Bays, but not harmful either as long as the adopter is trained. More thoughts here. age It really should be determined individually for each situation.

Thanks.
And interesting read.

 

[Stonevintage]

It's been a long time but I do remember, the breeder wanted their pups in their homes just a couple of days before their eyes opened. I do know we never bottle fed. There was some kind of formula though (milk) with some kind of dry baby food mix and we pulverized and put tiny bits of raw minced chicken in it after we'd had our pup about 10 days.

What I do remember very well are the hundreds of pounds of chicken necks we went through! Initially, we had to strip the skin and pound the necks (to pulverize the bones) and cut up for feeding. But, at about 12 weeks that pup was "wolfing" down about 6 chicken necks a day and didn't need our help at all. We did always have to remove most of the skins because there was too much fat and made lose stools.

Chicken necks were plentiful and only 10 cents a pound. We switched to kibble at some point and that worked out fine.

 

[Solo93]

The eyes open around 10 or 12 days. My 1st high content came home at 10 days,so I was the first thing he ever saw. <3

I had the wolfdogs chewing on raw backs and beef bones by 3-4 weeks but not eating much of the bone...I continued their formula for the calcium, along with yogurt and cottage cheese, and added in finely chopped raw meats of all kinds. By 5 or 6 weeks mine could throw down chicken necks and wings like nobody's business. ;-) Also, the adults would regurgitate for the later ones. Now, the dingoes were different, they were like yours in that they were 3-4 months old before they were good at it...they needed some help. I bought a meat grinder and ground up their necks & wings, and mixed it with a bit of ground beef and eggs to make a puppy-loaf. They LOVED that and they milked it as long as they could, haha.

I loved how big and strong mine got on the raw diet. I got to meet a number of their relatives, raised on kibble from the start, and they were noticeably less robust. My breeder came to visit a few times and said he wished he could afford to do the raw thing with all of his because he liked how the pups turned out for his buyers who did raw.

 

[Stonevintage]

I'm remembering way back so maybe we got him at 10 days. I remember holding him wrapped in a towel with wet ends wiping his face of all the formula stuck all over in his nose and face and one little eyelid was open a crack - I called my husband and that was an awesome moment we were standing embraced looking at our little wonder thinking _Yes! we can do this!