I hope this is the right place. I tried a search and found nothing. Does anyone have experience with or knowledge of these dogs. Or a possible link to past forum discussions. http://bluebayshepherds.weebly.com/
Blue Bay shepherd?
cdwoodcox
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Eye color is supposed to be amber like the Carpathian Wolf. But there's that GSD parentage and GSD's have brown eyes as virtually nearly all domestic dogs do.
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Czech wolf dogs don't really even look wolfy IMHO. They have wolf color on a vaguely GSD body.
I'm dubious as to the ability to have a truly wolfy looking DOG. If you look at the Russian fox expirement they had neoteny within a few generations of selecting for dog like behaviors and this was in a purely wild/undomesticated genepool.
The recent wolfy looking dogs the native American Indian dogs and alaskan nobles have had fraud controversies being nothing more then hybrids.
The more established attempts of wolfy looking dogs all miss the marks. The ones that used wolves like the Czechs and saarloos missed the mark. Tamaskans miss it. On the whole they are obviously dogs.
Some of those blue bays look awfully wolfy. The breeder also breeds wolves. I question the claim of one wolf ancestory 5 generations back.
I'm dubious as to the ability to have a truly wolfy looking DOG. If you look at the Russian fox expirement they had neoteny within a few generations of selecting for dog like behaviors and this was in a purely wild/undomesticated genepool.
The recent wolfy looking dogs the native American Indian dogs and alaskan nobles have had fraud controversies being nothing more then hybrids.
The more established attempts of wolfy looking dogs all miss the marks. The ones that used wolves like the Czechs and saarloos missed the mark. Tamaskans miss it. On the whole they are obviously dogs.
Some of those blue bays look awfully wolfy. The breeder also breeds wolves. I question the claim of one wolf ancestory 5 generations back.
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No. I owned a GSD. GSDs have enough of a wolfy look to keep a dog lover happy. Why risk a gamble with a wolf-dog hybrid?
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Disclaimer: I have an insane amount of nyquil coursing through my veins. So everything I am saying and thinking is through a cold medicine haze. So just ignore me if I say something stupid 
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The Czech Wolfdog was an attempt to create a super GSD, by combining the stamina and endurance of the wolf with the tractability and loyalty of the GSD.
The Czech Wolfdogs, Saarlos and Tasmaskans are dogs. They don't act like wolves. They're simply dogs bred to look like wolves. The Blue Bay is much the same. People who buy these dogs expecting to get what makes a wolf a wolf in a dog are going to wind up being disappointed.
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Lol!I need some!I'm up way too late and spending way too much time on hereDisclaimer: I have an insane amount of nyquil coursing through my veins. So everything I am saying and thinking is through a cold medicine haze. So just ignore me if I say something stupid
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I'm familiar with the history of Czech wolf dogs.
My point is that they don't look like wolves! They have the same color, but head shape, ears, eyes, snout, body all scream DOG.
Looking through the blue bay breeding stock several look like they are higher content wolf then the claimed 5 generations ago.
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Norman - Here is a link to answer some of the questions about an F6 cross. If you don't want to read thru all the pages just scroll down to the photos on page 10. Page 11 reveals the percentages of crossings and how far out or how long ago the crossing was from the original F1.
As you can see, photo #1 is an F6 and his wolf percentage is 47%.
www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/FWC_Pheno_Pamphlet_2011.pdf
As you can see, photo #1 is an F6 and his wolf percentage is 47%.
www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/FWC_Pheno_Pamphlet_2011.pdf
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If the F6 parent is nearly half wolf, then the Blue Bay Shepherd should be labeled and sold as a wolf-dog. The GSD parental contribution wouldn't dilute the wolf-dog content. They say the breeding program has no wolf blood but that isn't exactly true because half of the genes already come from a mid content wolf-dog hybrid. If they disclosed who the F6 parent is, would any one think that the GSD would make it a dog? As for breeding true, its only been bred like that for a few generations, too soon to know what kind of dog it would be.
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I wouldn't say that my heart is set on a blue bay shepherd. I merely want to research the breed as a possibility. I am still very much set on a long coat sable as my next dog. It would take a lot to change me from that. But these are the only other dogs that I thought compared in looks to the long coat sables. That being said I will communicate with the breeder and do some research. Even this thread has been helpful.
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I think a solid blue GSD is gorgeous!!!! However - don't have one, would not breed one. I don't care for the tan/blue dogs as they just look washy.
This site has ALOT of what appear to be purebred blue GSDs - they put them into their program and call them "Blue Bay" dogs.....yes back a few generations, they do have wolf/wolf crosses in some of the dogs....
Just the new generation of Shiloh minded breeders....just based on color instead of size here.
There are blue and blue long hairs out there....not easy to find - but you will find one if you look....send out emails to European kennels and eventually someone will produce one.
Lee
This site has ALOT of what appear to be purebred blue GSDs - they put them into their program and call them "Blue Bay" dogs.....yes back a few generations, they do have wolf/wolf crosses in some of the dogs....
Just the new generation of Shiloh minded breeders....just based on color instead of size here.
There are blue and blue long hairs out there....not easy to find - but you will find one if you look....send out emails to European kennels and eventually someone will produce one.
Lee
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Who can say. The breeder's take on things may shed some light on what she is trying to do. As she states, this is still something in development. It may be that her attempts may work IF there is something in the genetic makeup of the blues that more easily allows a cross to fix. There is a difference in the blue's but it's genetics that I don't understand.
I have owned both an F1 cross and a Blue in the past. So this is interesting to me. I can't fault anyone for trying if they are dedicated and honest. Success at this may help prevent the disasters that occur when hybrids are taken into homes that are ill prepared for wolfy traits which IMO is probably better than 90%. People want the look but not the traits.
It has been done with the Czech Wolf Dog. It appears that Dog breed continues to maintain a fixed 6.23% wolf content. It has enhanced endurance and exceptional tracking skills. It is an established breed and the world didn't end because they exist. Neither the wolf nor dog population suffer because they exist.
I have owned both an F1 cross and a Blue in the past. So this is interesting to me. I can't fault anyone for trying if they are dedicated and honest. Success at this may help prevent the disasters that occur when hybrids are taken into homes that are ill prepared for wolfy traits which IMO is probably better than 90%. People want the look but not the traits.
It has been done with the Czech Wolf Dog. It appears that Dog breed continues to maintain a fixed 6.23% wolf content. It has enhanced endurance and exceptional tracking skills. It is an established breed and the world didn't end because they exist. Neither the wolf nor dog population suffer because they exist.
I've met the breeder in person...both at her house and at mine. (Back when I had the wolf dog rescue, many of us made a regular habit of meeting each other's animals & comparing notes on handling, containment, genetic contribution, etc.) I have not visited her since she switched over to (mainly) Blue Bays but have met the high F#, mid % foundation stock. Nice animals, but a mid content can be a handful for the average person. They tend to be reactive & shy, which is a PITA for most people. (Better bite inhibition than most dogs though, due to wolf influence. A wolf does NOT want to hurt its packmates...it needs them.) The mids were 1/4 to 1/2 shepherd, roughly. They tend to be more tractable than the Sibe and Mal crosses, but sharper, and can be pretty neurotic if not socialsed well & trained. She has been breeding for...20+ years, might be closer to 30. She knows her stuff, imo. People underestimate the contribution of wolf genes, as 1/4 wolf is basically a dog. (My half-wolf is basically a dog, easier than my purebred GSDs in the past, but he came from good lines on both sides and I was a very experienced handled when I acquired him.) I would expect less health problems than a GSD, more independence, and vllimited tolerance for "handler error". You also need a 6' minimum fence, with dig skirting or a footer, if you plan to leave a dog like that outdoors unattended.
I have met quite a few Southern Breeze line wolfdogs. I have not met any Blue Bays in person. I do know a few folks who have them, and they are thrilled, but then again they are coming from wolf dogs, not dog-dogs. If you are close enough to visit, you should try to meet the foundation animals...if not, ask her if any of her buyers near you would allow a meet n greet. My 2 cents. ;-)
NAID dogs ("Indian dogs") are a freaking disaster. I'm a pretty MYOB person, but we have been hoping to close that puppymill down for 15 years now. I could tell SO many horror stories. Do not recommend. :-(
Tamaskans, eh. Not very wolfy looking imo, generic Northern temperament, socialisation and training make or break them. Some lines have wolf (F3 or thereabouts) & some don't. Ditto for CsV (Czech "wolfdog") and Saarloos. "American Tundra Shepherds" seem to have faded out, but they were another similar breed...made with poor quality GSD, malamute & maybe a few wolf hairs. Temperament & health both subpar in my opinion...but everybody has an opinion. ATS were modeled after the military "superdog" experiment to add 1/4 wolf to a GSD to increase health, stamina, & ability. What they got was shy dogs who wouldn't work off territory. The project was abandoned quickly. Then again, Angola uses wolf/shepherd hybrids (mid content) as patrol dogs and I'm told it worked for them. I fostered one of the Louisiana prison dogs and he was actually a really neat dog. You use crap purebreds, you get crappy mixes.
Sorry for the novel...maybe tmi. ;-)
I have met quite a few Southern Breeze line wolfdogs. I have not met any Blue Bays in person. I do know a few folks who have them, and they are thrilled, but then again they are coming from wolf dogs, not dog-dogs. If you are close enough to visit, you should try to meet the foundation animals...if not, ask her if any of her buyers near you would allow a meet n greet. My 2 cents. ;-)
NAID dogs ("Indian dogs") are a freaking disaster. I'm a pretty MYOB person, but we have been hoping to close that puppymill down for 15 years now. I could tell SO many horror stories. Do not recommend. :-(
Tamaskans, eh. Not very wolfy looking imo, generic Northern temperament, socialisation and training make or break them. Some lines have wolf (F3 or thereabouts) & some don't. Ditto for CsV (Czech "wolfdog") and Saarloos. "American Tundra Shepherds" seem to have faded out, but they were another similar breed...made with poor quality GSD, malamute & maybe a few wolf hairs. Temperament & health both subpar in my opinion...but everybody has an opinion. ATS were modeled after the military "superdog" experiment to add 1/4 wolf to a GSD to increase health, stamina, & ability. What they got was shy dogs who wouldn't work off territory. The project was abandoned quickly. Then again, Angola uses wolf/shepherd hybrids (mid content) as patrol dogs and I'm told it worked for them. I fostered one of the Louisiana prison dogs and he was actually a really neat dog. You use crap purebreds, you get crappy mixes.
Sorry for the novel...maybe tmi. ;-)
underestimate the contribution of wolf genes,"
Arrgh, typo. People OVERestimate the contribution...as if a bit of wolf makes the dog fundamentally different. It really doesn't; I say that based on 16+ yrs of experience with large numbers of them, handling hundreds of all crosses & content levels. Canids exist on a continuum. Wolves don't have even one behavior not found in dogs, & vice versa...but they have a different "breed package" of traits--reactive like a GSD or Border collie, intense like a Malinois or working line shepherd, independent like a husky, etc. Disclaimer is that a full wolf (like a handful of dog breeds) is NOT a pet and I would not recommend them to most people!
Arrgh, typo. People OVERestimate the contribution...as if a bit of wolf makes the dog fundamentally different. It really doesn't; I say that based on 16+ yrs of experience with large numbers of them, handling hundreds of all crosses & content levels. Canids exist on a continuum. Wolves don't have even one behavior not found in dogs, & vice versa...but they have a different "breed package" of traits--reactive like a GSD or Border collie, intense like a Malinois or working line shepherd, independent like a husky, etc. Disclaimer is that a full wolf (like a handful of dog breeds) is NOT a pet and I would not recommend them to most people!
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Thanks for the input Solo. Having met this breeder and seen her operation, what to you think? Is she doing anything differently that won't result in failure as has been the case in the past with other attempts? I noticed that she is talking about good temperament. Knowing what you know, do you think she can really promise that?
I don't think you can ever promise 'good temperament', when starting with a puppy, because of the nature/nurture thing. I can take almost any dog & turn it into a nice companion. (Obviously if you need a working dog who will do a specialized job, genetics is going to be a bigger deal.) Somebody who doesn't train, doesn't socialise, doesn't understand dogs, or is a poor lifestyle fit for that dog will not get good results. I think that some breeds, anything that's part wolf among them, is VERY dependent upon there not being a lot of handler error. Whereas a Golden puppy may tolerate a lot of newbie mistakes, a Blue Bay won't. A GSD often won't either, so in that respect, not too much different. The lines she's got are not known for genetic aggression (unlike the NAID dogs, Davidson line wolves, Filas, Causasian LGDs...) and they ARE known for shyness on the wolfdog side (because that's a super common wolfdog trait) so...that's your Square One/starting point. I have seen some of her wolfdogs be pretty amazing and some be skittish unsociables, and handling technique was the difference. They really have the potential to go either way.
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No - not too much information.....actually very interesting!
I would wonder where she gets her blue GSDs......here in teh US I don't know or know of a GSD breeder who would sell a puppy to someone developing a line/breed like this - most sell on limited papers period - of course, limited papers would not stop a breeding like this, as no recognized papers are going to be issued to the offspring. So the conclusion would be that she has poor GSDs....but then, if she is bringing in European bred dogs, they might be of good quality....
Lee
They're European imports.
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I understand what you are saying about traits but I do believe that because many people haven't been around dogs with "extreme" traits they do attribute this to the wolf component.
The den digging behavior though - is one that I believe is an inherited trait that not many dog breeds express much anymore. The den that ours created under the house foundation was almost large enough to walk in. It's sides had old blankets and towels literally packed into the dirt sides. We never knew it existed for years because it was concealed by a wood deck.
I recently read a research paper, in "puzzle" tests the wolf demonstrates an 80% success rate where dogs of several breeds were only successful 20%. This translates into more "try" as in if your wolf/dog wants to escape your yard - he's probably going to do it lol.
I had mine from 18 days old to 13 1/3 years old. An amazing wonderful experience. I got lucky.
The den digging behavior though - is one that I believe is an inherited trait that not many dog breeds express much anymore. The den that ours created under the house foundation was almost large enough to walk in. It's sides had old blankets and towels literally packed into the dirt sides. We never knew it existed for years because it was concealed by a wood deck.
I recently read a research paper, in "puzzle" tests the wolf demonstrates an 80% success rate where dogs of several breeds were only successful 20%. This translates into more "try" as in if your wolf/dog wants to escape your yard - he's probably going to do it lol.
I had mine from 18 days old to 13 1/3 years old. An amazing wonderful experience. I got lucky.
It IS a wonderful experience...and don't sell yourself short.
I think you were more dedicated, than lucky.Huskies dig dens, and Border collies are brilliant, and and nothing has more "try" than a terrier. ;-D You are right though, they are a LOT of dog & most folks probably don't have that frame of reference until they meet some. It also has a lot to do with expectations, I guess. My guys were all individuals...I raised 6 permanent ones from pup to grave, and had at least 150 fosters; some were long term or "foster fails". I only had a few I wasn't crazy about, & only 2 that I felt were too damaged to do much with. I lost my awesome 15yo "98%" last year (had him from 10 days), and man, do they leave a hole. ;-o This guy, boy... Ono has passed
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