Re: Help needed with bloat

I got mine from amazon.com. Brake-fast.net is selling them, as well. However, if you wait a little while, you will get them powder coated from the factory. I believe the rep told me two months. As of last week they had 45 of the bowls they re-enameled. When those are gone they will produce the medium bowl with the finish from the factory. They are already making the small metal bowls that way.
Customer service was great. I thought I had the teflon coated bowl and they were willing to exchange it for the newly coated one even though I didn't buy it from them. Turns out amazon.com sent me the recoated bowl so it worked out.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

Finally found the email I sent out to friends after Serena bloated:



Melinda & Jay wrote:
None of this is meant as a substitute for advice from your vet. It is a collection of all that I have learned since Serena bloated.
PLEASE feel free to forward, or to contact me if you feel I have written something that is incorrect/
~Melinda

Here is the Serena story:
In hindsight, she wasn't really acting herself the night before, at bedtime, but we chalked it up to sulking about Keagen. Everyone's nose is a little out of joint over him right now.

Feb 9th, Jay fed everyone about 6:15. He left at 7, and I got up shortly thereafter for a bit, then went back to bed until 10ish. (Boy, I needed that!). Remy was uncrated in the house. After I got up for good, I was checking emails, and heard her gagging and licking. I thought she had yacked a little water and was "recycling" it as dogs sometimes do. I heard her continue to lick, and looked-she was licking the floor of her crate rather obsessively. Still not thinking about bloat, I let her and Halle out of their crates. I noticed she was chubby, and made a mental note to remind Jay that the new food is much more calorie-dense, and to not feed her as much. She was now licking the carpet and gagging a little. I let the girls and Remy out to potty. She immediately began licking snow. Ok, NOW I am thinking about bloat. Ran in, googled to confirm, called the vet and told them I was on my way in. I paged Jay with a 911page, so I could fill him in. By this time, her abdomen was quite distended, and painful to touch-for her and I!

Crated Remy and Halle and left. Oh, and on the way out, literally, she did vomit. Partially inside, partially outside, and part on the door frame. I used wad of papertowels to clear off the door frame, and left it to deal with when I got back.
They immediately took her back for Xrays, she did have gastric dilatation, but had not yet torsed. He offered options:

Send her home on Reglan, and schedule surgery for next wk.
Either keep her until 3, or have me bring her back at 3 for repeat Xrays, then send her home on Reglan, and schedule surgery for next wk.
Or, as he looked back and forth between the film and the clock, he said, "we can do it now, and be done with it."
I voted for #3, which he did also say was what he would do if she were his. The gastropexy won't prevent the dilatation part of bloat, but will prevent, or at least decrease the chance of, the volvulus.

The evening of the surgery, she was very loagy and very out of sorts, understandably so!
Her incision is quite long, as to be expected. He had to give her more of the anesthetic than would be normal for a dog of her size, she really fought the anesthesia. That's our tankgirl! She actually was soooo loagy that we ended up having to walk her and syringe her with water every 1/2 hr to help her to clear the anesthesia. By the next day, she was sore, but more like herself. She's been back for 2 rechecks, each time she astounds the vet and the staff. She goes in midweek to get her sutures out.


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Bloat, Torsion, or Gastric Dilatation/Volvulus (GDV)





Made up of 2 steps

Step 1 is the Gastric Dilatation. At this time, the stomach itself is distended (or stretched). May be distended with food, water, air, or combination of all. At this point, decompression can be done, and surgery may/may not be decided upon.
Next step is the volvulus. Because of the location and position of the stomach in a dog, when it expands to a certain extreme point, it will twist. This twisting will eliminate the ability for the situation to remedy itself. It also will result in a cutoff of bloodflow to the stomach itself, and to the heart. The dog who has developed a volvulus will rapidly deteriorate and WILL die without immediate medical attention.


Symptoms

Pacing, fidgeting.
Acting agitated or uncomfortable
Salivating, panting, whining
Licking weird things, almost obsessively. May even lick the air. (You will know it when you see it!)
Unsuccessful attempts to vomit, retching
Excessive drooling, usually accompanied by retching noises. May vomit foam/mucous.
Difficulty breathing, shallow breathing, panting
Rapid heartrate
Pale gums, or very red gums
Swelling in abdominal area (may or may not be noticeable)
Hunching up
May try to gulp water, snow, dirt, rocks, grass.
IF YOU SEE ANY OF THESE, CALL YOUR VET AS YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY OUT THE DOOR!!!! The first words out of your mouth on the phone should be “I think my dog is bloating.” Do not let them put you off.



Risk factors

Deep-chested breeds (GSDs, Danes, Saints, Labs, Irish Wolfhounds, Great Pyrenees, Boxers, Weims)
Raised dishes result in an 110% INCREASE in risk of bloat! (Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine, Non-dietary risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in large and giant breed dogs )
Feeding some canned food or table scraps seems to lessen the incidence.
Previous history, or family history.
Fast eaters. (If you have a gulper, try scattering the kibble on the floor.)
Tense/fearful/anxious dogs
Underweight dogs
Males more likely than females
Food containing citric acid, or food with fat in top 4ingredients.
Large volumes of kibble. (i.e., less calorie dense foods)


Treatment

The immediate treatment is decompression of the stomach. The vet will do this, or if you feel confidant in your abilities, you can find the instructions/supply list online.
Gastropexy can be done. There are several methods to do this, each with pros/cons. Only your vet can decide which is the optimal choice. Gastropexy does not prevent the bloat from occurring, but will prevent the dilatation.
Without surgery there is a 24% mortality rate and a 76% chance of re-bloating at some point. The best choice is to finish the treatment that has been started and have the abdomen explored. If the stomach can be surgically tacked into place, recurrence rate drops to 6%. {Marvista Vet }
Prevention

NO exercise around mealtimes. (1hr before, 2hrs after) Light walking is okay, and may increase gastric motility. (That’s a good thing.)
Limit water intake right around meals, and also around exercise. Don’t limit their water intake except around mealtimes/exercise.
Feed several smaller meals rather than 1 larger one.
It is possible that administering simethicone (Phayzyme, Gas-X) at first sign of abdominal discomfort MIGHT buy you some time. It does NOT eliminate the need to seek emergency medical attention!
Possible prevention:
1-2 Tbs of Aloe Vera Gel or 1 Tbs of apple cider vinegar given right after each meal to promote proper acidity
Yogurt or supplemental acidophilus to promote healthy bacteria in the gut.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

A while back I did a little experiment on myself.(haha hope this doesn't sound crazy). I ran around very actively after I had a meal and a beverage. My stomach started to feel upset pretty quickly and i could hear gurgling noises. I wonder if that's how it feels for dogs when they are active right after they eat and why it can trigger bloating.

We include information on bloat when we adopt GSDs out, and i always make sure to kennel my boy an hour before and an hour after I feed him.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

Thank you for experimenting for us - very clever!

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

Great experiment. It provided useful information, but I still had to chuckle a bit.

I was worried about bloat as well when I got Schatzi. Being a paranoid mom, whenever she showed just one of the signs (not the serious ones), I would panic and call the vet. While I still keep a close eye on her, I did a lot of research on bloat so that I could recognize the true emergency signs:

http://www.german-shepherd-lore.com/bloat.html

My parents grew up in Germany during WWII and they always had Shepherds. None of them seemed to be affected by the various ailments that plague dogs today. Their dogs always ate table scraps and were the most robust dogs you could ever find.

While I don't feed her table scraps, she does eat a quality food (dry with a bit of canned) and I add digestive enzymes and probiotics. My understanding is that maintaining the proper pH balance in the gut is extremely important.

I also try to keep her stress level low. You should see the conversations I have with my 9 month old pup. She just doesn't understand why she can't run around like a crazy dog after meal time.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

I see all these things about how you shouldn't feed your dog their food in an elevated bowl.

What's considered elevated? A few inches off the floor or is that ok? Or should we literally be feeding our dogs their food on a plate on the floor?

 

Bloat

i'm seeking input mainly from those who have experienced bloat first hand...

there are many theories as to what causes bloat, and even more theories of how to decrease the chances of bloat, so what i'm wondering is -- what did you try? what supposed "rules did you break"? and what are you doing differently now?

also, just how common is bloat in german shepherds?

 

Re: Bloat

A friend of mine's Great Dane had it and referenced this page.

According to the chart, GSD's are 12th on the risk list.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2090&aid=402

 

Re: Bloat

My GSD Rocky bloated last April 11th. He was restless all evening, but he had had two good play sessions that day, so we thought his hips were bothering him (he had HD, arthritis & neuropathy, where he dragged his back legs)

He kept wanting to go outside but it was around 3:30AM I heard a horrible sound, him moaning, ran downstairs, he had been vomiting a thick white foam. Took him to EV, he might have survived bloat surgery, but odds were high he'd never walk again. He was ten.

A neighbor's basset hound died after bloat surgery years ago, so I was aware of it. I had always been so careful, no playing after just eating, etc.

Even in the evenings, Rocky seemed to like a nice long drink after his final trip outside. Every night I'd say okay Rock, enough, as I did that night.

I've gone over that night so many times, what could I have done differently? Even getting him to the EV wouldn't have changed the outcome, but I feel horrible because I know at least the last hour he suffered until I begged them to give him something for pain until we knew what we were dealing with.

From what I read after on the internet, age, sex and of course breed is a large factor, so he had those three things going against him. I really don't think I "broke any of the rules".

Oh, I don't know, I guess I'll be extra vigilant with my two new GSDs

I'll never forget his moaning though, unfortunately that's not a good sign, because up until then he just had an upset tummy, when the moaning started his stomach must have torqued.

(I always feel I have to apologize for my long posts, I've always been a fast typist & before I know it, I've written a book)

 

Re: Bloat

no worries lara - as long as there are enough breaks the in thoughts / paragraphs - i never mind a long informative post

i was reading a debate over raised or level feeders - some saying they decrease, some saying they increase, and of course some saying they have no effect whatsoever when it comes to bloat. there are even references to the size and shape of kibble making a difference. on one hand i feel like - if it says it will help, then why not try it? but on the other hand i feel like so many people "follow the rules" and still end up having to go thru this horror that i think - why bother? everything seems like its nothing more than taking a chance.

 

Re: Bloat

Originally Posted By: Camerafodderi'm seeking input mainly from those who have experienced bloat first hand...

there are many theories as to what causes bloat, and even more theories of how to decrease the chances of bloat, so what i'm wondering is -- what did you try? what supposed "rules did you break"? and what are you doing differently now?

also, just how common is bloat in german shepherds?

I've had three dogs bloat w/torsion. All three had successful emergency surgery.

I really can't answer your questions, but I can tell you about each dog and my experiences.

Around SEPT - 1993. ECHO was about 9 years/6 months old when he bloated w/torsion BUT during the year he had bloated (no torsion) once or twice before this. He was always a good eater. He ate Pedigree kibble and had some type of canned food, forget the brand (maybe Pedigree?), with water added. He bloated IMMEDIATELY after he finished his meal. He lost his spleen. When he was younger he was ultra shy, he had a TERRIBLE TEMPERAMENT - I spent hundreds of hours in obedience to help give him confidence. When he bloated he hadn't had any noticible temperament problems in many years.

Around DEC. 1999. JR was about 9 years/10 months old when he bloated w/torsion. He was a very picky eater - ate enough to survive - he was SKINNY, SKINNY, SKINNY!!! He was NOT diagnosed with EPI, but the vet had me use Panacure to help him digest and utilize as much of the food he consumed as possible. He had bloated (no torsion) about a month or two prior to the bloat w/torsion. He ate Innova kibble with boiled hamburger and some of the juice mixed in. Later that night, after he ate he acted like he had an upset tummy, but this didn't really alarm me until about 3 hours later when he vomited white foam. He had a rock solid temperament. FWIW, JR survived mesenteric torsion about 14 months before he had the bloat w/torsion.

Around SEPT. 2005. KELLY was about 9 years/9 or 10 months old when he bloated w/torsion ON A COMPLETELY EMPTY STOMACH. He was always a good eater. He was having problems before this happened with diarrhea which was later diagnosed as SIBO. The day he bloated he vomited water in the AM, and had a very rumbly tummy all day. When he vomited white foam I rushed him to the vet who confirmed bloat w/torsion. Even though he had been laying next to me for hours, the vet felt he had been torsioned for sometime before he vomited - he lost 1/3 of his stomach but had a normal recouperation. Kel had a soft temperament, not shy, but absolutely not normal either.

Some people feel old age contributed to their torsion. One lady who has studied GSD health issues felt that Kel's SIBO caused his bloat. All three had both water and food bowls on the floor.

 

Re: Bloat

Originally Posted By: Camerafodderno worries lara - as long as there are enough breaks the in thoughts / paragraphs - i never mind a long informative post

i was reading a debate over raised or level feeders - some saying they decrease, some saying they increase, and of course some saying they have no effect whatsoever when it comes to bloat. there are even references to the size and shape of kibble making a difference. on one hand i feel like - if it says it will help, then why not try it? but on the other hand i feel like so many people "follow the rules" and still end up having to go thru this horror that i think - why bother? everything seems like its nothing more than taking a chance.

I think maybe the risks with the raised eating platforms or size of kibble is eating too fast or air getting in there could be the start of the bloating.

Rocky did not eat fast, even when he was a puppy.

I always think of what my Grandma used to say & to me this applies to my precious animals as well as humans
"when it's your time it's your time"

 

Re: Bloat

Another thing, and I didn't think about this until later the next day, after my mind was able to accept that all this DID happen.

Since Rocky's hips were getting worse & worse with age (I always had figured the end with him was finding him unable to use his hind legs), he didn't just jump up onto the back seat, I would move the passenger seat up as far as it would go & he step up onto the floor, then onto the back seat. (we have had Escapes for years, they work very well with the dogs).

That night I was in a panic of course. It wasn't until afterward I realized he had a harder than normal time getting in, I remember having to help him more than usual.

The first thing they did at the vet was measure him with calipers, as they immediately thought bloat from my phone call telling them we were coming in.

So the stomach swelling is another sign. But since it was night, neither myself or DH would have thought of looking, we just got up & let him out, as usual.

So many "what ifs"

 

Re: Bloat

My Golden bloated when she was 11 years old, this was a year ago in January. She had not eaten yet that day or had large quantities of water, and had not exercised that day. I don't think I broke any "rules" because most of the things like no exercise before/after eating, don't feed large meals, etc did not apply since she hadn't eaten anything all day.
Actually I take that back, I guess I did break one "rule" because my Golden usually ate lying down. However as I said she had not eaten yet that day so that was not a factor.
She first threw up when I was not around to see it, a family member told me she was vomiting so I came to see what was wrong. I heard her gagging so I took her into the kitchen. When I stepped back I noticed her stomach was distended, so I rushed her in to the emergency vet and told them "I think she bloated" so they rushed her to the back. She was acting distressed and drooling. They took an x-ray and found that she had torsion as well and needed emergency surgery. When they did the surgery they found the stomach, start of intestine, and start of spleen were twisted but the color was good and the blood flow returned normally when they untwisted it which means we caught it early. She went through the surgery and recovery very well. She was very lucky because I had been out of town for the weekend and just returned that day. If I had not been there I don't know if my family would have recognized how much of an emergency it was.

I think the most important thing to do is to know the signs/symptoms of bloat and that it is an urgent emergency situation.

 

Re: Bloat

twonhshepherds - were you practicing any of the so called preventative measures prior to your bloat incident?

scary that both parents died from bloat. thanks for that link.

 

Re: Bloat

Yes, I was...His Mom died when Max was 2 so I was always vigilant.

I did no exercise 1 hour before or after meals. Careful with the kind of kibble I fed.There is an article somewhere about the ingredients that shouldn't be in kibble...I'm not sure if I could find it. I think it was part of the Purdue study.
Two meals a day and tried to slow him down eating...that was difficult!! No raised food bowl..

I have a friend who's dog bloated on water, just water..go figure.


I always figured it was a matter of time.

Max will be 11 in April...we have nothing to complain about.

 

Re: Bloat

I regret to now fall into this catagory, but as many know, Shoshona bloated last Tue night/Wed morning. I had always taken every precaution I knew of. They were NEVER allowed to eat at least 1 hr before/after excercise. We have an excercise program that we stick to daily which includes warm ups, intense excercise and cool downs.
There is never an issue with eating fast around here. I free feed, the only time food is not avail is before/after excercise.
As far as I'm concerned there were no enviormental reasons Shoshi would have bloated.
I have began investigating a surgery, Laproscopic Gastroxpey (I think thats how its spelled, its not in front of me) but thats where they laproscopically go in and tack the stomachs. I want to get this done for both of my boys. It won't prevent Bloat but it will prevent the stomach from flipping as was the case with Shoshi.

 

Re: Bloat

Since going through it myself and like I said, after seeing my neighbor's dog die after going through the surgery, I read up on it as much as I could & was fanatical (pretty much the same way you described) with my dogs, as far as exercise, drinking too much water, eating too fast, everything that was within my power to control.

When the boys go in for their yearly shots I will discuss the procedure with the vet & see what she suggests.

But so far it just sounds like extremely bad luck, I don't know what else I could have done differently with Rocky. I think when you have a large chested dog (animals) you're always running the risk.

And of course the bloating itself is just very uncomfortable, it's when it torques, that's where it becomes deadly, which is what the tacking would prevent. Definitely something to look in to.

 

Re: Bloat

My internist concurs with the New Purdue study -- that is, raised feeders, etc. I won't repeat them, since we probably all have them memorized.

That said, she says that is all we really know about bloat. It's still not understood, even by specialists like her. She indicates it's possible that some dogs may have torsion, then bloat even (not all GDV is bloat then torsion). As you know, Camerafodder, that's what I'm dealing with Camper with right now. He has partial torsion of his stomach. He hasn't eaten a grain-based kibble since he was a little guy and has been on a raw diet for just about two years now.

I've never fed him with a raised feeder. He savors his food, doesn't gobble, but actually eats slowly. We have set exercise and feeding times to ensure one hour after exercise, then two hours after feeding.

The four vets I've consulted say they think it's genetic. But I've spoken to the breeder and there's no history of bloat/torsion in any of her dogs (and I have no reason to doubt her); nor has she heard of it in any of the pups she's sold over the years. She seemed genuinely shocked. Maybe it's a combination of genes, then just the oddest little thing happening in utero. After all, why was my dog redder as a pup than his siblings? And why does he have far more energy and drive than his sister? As my internist puts it, it's all his unique conformation. We don't know exactly what goes into making Camper his unique wonderful partially torsioned self.

And, we realized, there could be quite a number of dogs walking around with this exact same condition. It was just an odd set of circumstances that led to me finding out (my paranoia, mostly). So maybe dogs that bloat in old age actually have had partial torsion for years.

When I say partial torsion, I don't mean that as a static condition. In one set of xrays, the stomach was out of position and slightly twisted. When we took an ultrasound (just a week later), it was not twisted, but still out of position. The stomach is bouncing around all over the place in there. I got lucky.

I think the one rule we need to always follow is to pay very careful attention to our dogs; don't dismiss simple GI symptoms as "just one of those things." Check out anything that seems odd.

I've always been pretty cautious. I felt silly bringing him in for xrays because he urps sometime. Thank God I did.

When we look for "rules," I think it gives us a false sense of security, that we understand bloat better than we do. But for every rule, there's exceptions. There are people here whose dogs have bloated on raw diets, or on empty stomachs. Young dogs bloat. Females. And solid-nerved dogs.

The info (like the Purdue studies) we have is correlational information and historic data. Helpful, but only so useful.

This week, I've found out, we just really don't know that much about bloat.

We're doing gastropexy tomorrow after they untwist and rearrange his organs. When I have a female GSD and have her spayed, I'd absolutely have it done. But would I open up a young healthy male for a prophylactic gastropexy? Or even for a laproscopic procedure? Not so sure I would. There are risks to surgery too.

 

Re: Bloat

Chama (she's not a gsd but she is a rottie mix with a very deep chest) bloated in a very typical way and there was no torsion. She ate a bunch of kibble and drank a bunch of water. Totally my fault but also something she'd not done in the past (stuck her head in the bag and ate like it was a feeding trough!). I don't normally leave a bag on the floor but I had just opened it that night and was in the middle of a project. Looking back I realize that she has bloated before (not to the degree she did this last time) and I treated it with activated charcoal and all was well.

This time I panicked because she started doing that unproductive gagging thing. I didn't know if it was from the bloat or from her lungs (she coughs because she has scaring on her lungs) but I decided I needed and x-ray and rushed her into the e-vet. At that point I wasn't sure she had eaten any kibble (I caught her next to the bag but not eating from the bag) so I couldn't explain the mass that showed up on her x-ray. The amount of poop she produced in the next 8 hours convinced me it was kibble but the vet was convinced it was a tumor.

And, indeed, many older dogs do bloat because of a tumor.

To make the long story shorter, I took Chama home against the vet's wishes. She thought I should pts, told me there was nothing I could do for her at home. She said there was no way she would recover and even if I decompressed and/or had surgery done she would bloat again, maybe within the week.

When I took her to a regular vet first thing the next morning (because she had a terrible reaction to the narcotic the e-vet insisted on giving her) she told me to take her home and watch her carefully. When I finally got a hold of my regular vet he told me to alternate Gas X and activated charcoal and a couple of homeopathic remedies and keep her moving. I started treating aggressively and by that evening the bloat was resolving.

So, that's Chama's story. If she were a younger dog I certainly would have pursued surgical options but given her age, general health and the fact that the vet told me she had cancer and should be pts, I did not pursue those options. I am glad that I made the decisions that I did.

My bloat kit now has homeopathic remedies in it and at the first sign you can bet I'll be pumping my dog full of all this stuff as we run out the door to the vet!

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

I have been feeding my dog in an elevated bowl for ever and this is something I am not going to change as it is easier and less stress on joints.

Maybe I missed it with in all the posts someplace but the new thinking is that bloat is and can be GENETIC!

Of course I still follow the making the dog wait AT LEAST 2 hours after eating to exercise and what not but also another thing I have done with all my dogs is feeding later in the evening about 8:30 to 9 PM.. this way I know we are finished for the day and the dogs are in down mode and not even likely to run around the garden chasing each other in play.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

Originally Posted By: Berg WandererI have been feeding my dog in an elevated bowl for ever and this is something I am not going to change as it is easier and less stress on joints.

After my Sam bloated (eating from an elevated bowl) I threw those away!!! Now that I see him eating from a bowl on the floor I can see a HUGE difference. They used to inhale so much air when eating from a raised bowl. NEVER AGAIN!!! Just think of it, wolfs in the wild don't eat from raised bowls.

They now eat from Break-Fast bowls and it has slowed them down big time! I wish I would have known about this sooner, I'm a 100% sure Sam would have never bloated if he had been eating on the floor using this type of bowl. No doubt in my mind.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

Carolina i've done the same with my elevated bowls. When I first bought them I thought it was to avoid Bloat but somewhere along the line the rules changed and I wasn't aware of it.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

Yeah but wolfs do not have shoulder and hip problems either!

I watched Mr. and Mrs wolf on Sky sat a few weeks ago he hunted a deer and brought the carcass in for the wolves to eat from and the rib cage was at least 8 inches off the ground while they were eating from it.

I still feel that yes you should do all you can as far as not allowing copious amounts of water after/ during exercise, make sure during exercise the dogs get a sip then count at least until 10 seconds before allowing another and not allowing too much water during exercise, and watching feeding in ratio to exercise, also if you are more concerned then you can also feed 3 times a day or smaller meals so not as much is sitting in the stomach at one time.

 

Re: Help needed with bloat

When my Sam bloated, he had NOT had any exercise nor had had a ton of water.