[Anubis_Star]

I'm not trying to get anywhere this is the endless argument that never goes away. Like you try to educate me about standards, I'm just trying to educate those like you into the emotion of John Q pet owner.

With the GSD being the number 2 dog nothing is going to change anytime soon.

Comments that say "owners of OS GSD's are harming the breed" are hurtful and will not ever help in the quest to educate anyone. When I see comments like that I will always jump in and stand up for the average pet owner who participates here. As diverse as this board is I feel the pet parent is under represented and we often lose our voice or get out shouted among the stronger willed sport/show/breeders and workers when in fact we are the ones who need a place like this the most.

Again, just because you are offended, does not mean you are right

As irritating as it is for me, to hear people basically say "SCREW what the breed is suppose to be, I want it MY way, I'll do what I want, 'MURICA!" And continue to see these poorly bred dogs come into my clinic day in and day out plagued with temperament and health problems, I take nothing personally.

 

[Jack's Dad]

Again, just because you are offended, does not mean you are right

As irritating as it is for me, to hear people basically say "SCREW what the breed is suppose to be, I want it MY way, I'll do what I want, 'MURICA!" And continue to see these poorly bred dogs come into my clinic day in and day out plagued with temperament and health problems, I take nothing personally.

It's overly simplistic to blame the breed's temperament and health problems on OS dogs.

Breeding dogs for sport or in other words ( to score high in IPO ) could be just as bad or worse.

Schutzhund was designed to test the breed not become the standard.

Any test that is patterned and been around for years can be bred for and trained for, so what Max thought or may have intended is long gone.

Happened with "No child left behind". Funding was based on school performance and performance was based on the TEST scores. So teachers were pushed to teach for the test. As long as good scores were the result, few cared what was lost along the way.

 

[GypsyGhost]

There are lots of "pet people" that have a dog that is within standard. I am a pet person. I have a working line puppy whose parents are well within the standard. I also have a rescue pit mix that is a genetic mess because of backyard breeding. Because of that, I have a huge respect for those breeding for what the standard is. That goes for both size/structure and temperament. Do I love Roxy any less for not being a great representation of her breed? Of course not. Would it be a shame if she was bred just because someone liked her size? Yes!

I am new to German Shepherds, and obviously still have a lot to learn, but I'm here, trying to learn as much as I can from people who really know what they're talking about. I really don't think anyone set out to offend people whose dogs don't fit the standard. They just have the experience (and facts!) to back up their opinions.

I hope no one reads this and takes offense. I'm sure all your dogs are wonderful and you love them, and at the end of the day, that's what's really important. I know I love both of mine, even though one is more well-bred than the other.

 

[Findlay]

First…do some more research about the GSD (preferably off of Facebook) and figure out that the breed is considered to have started in 1899. Can’t really get any more “end of 19th century” than that. Horand…the dog that all GSD can trace their lineage to, was born in 1895. So I’m going to assume your screenshot of a facebook post is based off of him…not sure if even Max was done “making the standard” at that point…as there was just one dog to make that standard from.

Second…Facebook isn’t the best source IMO to get your GSD information.

Third…the standard doesn’t have pictures. The standard does have angles of different joints, but not “preferred look.” What you basically posted is a highly biased, loosely based in truth picture, that I would almost call “propaganda” more than any kind of actual informational illustration.

First and formost: I’ve no interest in researching the topic of GSDs. I am however, the owner of a GSD pup.


Second: Prior to buying my pup, I was talking to a friend and wondered about the term “roach-back” and she emailed me that picture. While reading this thread I saw the term “breed Standard” and I remembered that picture and posted it…Big mistake on my part…Obviously, a big OUCH for you.


Third and Lastly: I do not have a FaceBook account and I think that all I need or want to know about the history of GSDs is right here in your post.

 

[dogma13]

Shepherdmom, really, this won?t get you anywhere. If you?re getting ?ticked? you should just realize that nothing you say, will change the opinions of those of us that care about the breed standard to the level that we do.

I'm not trying to get anywhere this is the endless argument that never goes away. Like you try to educate me about standards, I'm just trying to educate those like you into the emotion of John Q pet owner.

With the GSD being the number 2 dog nothing is going to change anytime soon.

Comments that say "owners of OS GSD's are harming the breed" are hurtful and will not ever help in the quest to educate anyone. When I see comments like that I will always jump in and stand up for the average pet owner who participates here. As diverse as this board is I feel the pet parent is under represented and we often lose our voice or get out shouted among the stronger willed sport/show/breeders and workers when in fact we are the ones who need a place like this the most.

Thanks Shepherds mom

 

[martemchik]

As diverse as this board is I feel the pet parent is under represented and we often lose our voice or get out shouted among the stronger willed sport/show/breeders and workers when in fact we are the ones who need a place like this the most.

Why do you need a place like this? You've clearly refused to learn. You admitted to not knowing the simplest things, the most basic of thing about our breed standard. Mostly because you've admitted it doesn't matter to you. So then why are you even involved in this discussion? Why should anyone that "knows" waste their time on people that refuse to learn and just stick to their extremely limited opinion on how things should be.

Like I said...I get the "pet mentality" and I've personally never said anything bad about anyone's OS GSD. Do I support the breeding of such animals? Nope.
If someone comes here, asks about a breeder, I'll give them an opinion if I have one. The whole goal is to try and educate. Educate WHY people should look for within standard dogs.

But clearly...you don't want to learn, you're happy thinking what you do is right, and if everyone else is like you...they shouldn't even come and ask about potential breeders. If all you want is acceptance, find a forum where everyone will just accept whatever it is you want to do, but in my experience, this forum is not, and will never be a bunch of yes men.

Like I said...the saddest thing that happens, is when a "pet person" refuses to learn, then gets the dog they think they've wanted, tries to do something new, something more than just a hike here and there, and their dog isn't genetically capable of doing whatever it is the handler wishes to do with the dog. I'm generalizing, but from what I've seen "OS GSD" tend to not be tested in various sports and so they aren't capable of doing them. OS GSD breeders know that they sell their dogs based on ONE thing...size. They have no need to work their dogs. They accept that they're breeding for the people that don't feel like learning, the people that want some extra large form of what this breed was supposed to be. They don't care about working their dogs, because working people won't buy their dogs anyways.

So I'll continue to try and educate people, and not just give them "slightly better than BYB" options so that they're not supporting the bottom of the barrel. I have much higher standards for breeders and will only support those breeders. There's no "well they're not the worst I've ever seen so of course you should give them money."

 

[martemchik]

Here's the thing...stop taking these discussions so personally. Sure, if someone says something bad about YOUR dog, feel free to get upset. But that rarely happens on this forum. Why is it wrong for someone to say the "idea" of breeding OS GSD is wrong? Where would the fun be if we all had the same opinion and just accepted things as they are? Where would there be any opportunity to learn?

I don't care if people have OS GSD. I'm not telling them they need to be culled, or that they're something less than what the people think they are. Do I think they should be bred? All depends on if you go through the temperament testing that I agree with and support. I'm personally not one to rule a dog out of breeding just due to its size. Would I breed to it? Would I want a puppy out of that dog? Depends on what I see when I watch that dog work. If it's not up to my standard, I won't, but I'm sure it might be up to other people's standard and there are no issues with that at all. As long as the dog can perform the work, who is anyone to say that it's not worth breeding? Like Jack's Dad mentioned...the work was meant as a test, not a competition. If the dog passes the test, it means it has something to offer to the future generation...

 

[Stonevintage]

I don't mind at all that there are people here that are very strict in their desire to stay well within the breed standard. It is those few that try to cram their preferences down other peoples throats that get to me. This sprinkled with comments as to a posters ignorance if they don't change their beliefs to align with yours is IMO very prevalent on this site with a few.

Last month I posted a thread that asked the question "Is my dog a good representative of the breed"? I went into further detail that my question was only asked in the context as in casual conversation on the street. I know she is OS and not within the breed standard.

The conversation "blew up" in to becoming one of breed standard. 6 pages later, I got the information I was looking for in a couple of little posts that were direct and told me exactly what I needed to know. I learned a lot from those two posts. I will now be able, if asked, to explain that she is OS and has a problem with her back line and rear angle. If they want more than that I will refer them to the GSD standard.

What that post attracted were the 2 top standard thumpers (guess who). 6 pages of junk that came no where near answering my question. I'm not sure if they even read my question, it was however a great springboard for a thumpin' session.

 

[martemchik]

There we go, someone who wants to actually discuss something...nope, not at all. Resorting to name calling. Guess that's the way people discuss things these days. When someone disagrees with you, you call them names.

I'm not sure how anyone can "cram" anything down anyone's throat over the internet. There's no gun to your head, there's no knife to your throat, no one is forcing you to do anything. People share their opinions. Most people do it very respectfully, others choose to resort to name calling. To each their own.

 

[Stonevintage]

BYB must be name calling then. It is certainly used in that context here. Ignorant is also name calling as is uneducated.

 

[martemchik]

Name calling a "theoretical" breeder is not the same as directly calling a person who you're discussing something with a negative term.

But, feel free to point out where I used a negative term (any of the ones you decided to list) about a board member.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

:thumbup:


Well stated.

Me too. Unless we are involved with working GSDs at a young age most of us start from square one.

I was almost lured into buying an "Old fashioned straight backed" 100 plus pound GSD. I am glad I learned more about the breed, in part thanks to this forum.

There are lots of "pet people" that have a dog that is within standard. I am a pet person. I have a working line puppy whose parents are well within the standard. I also have a rescue pit mix that is a genetic mess because of backyard breeding. Because of that, I have a huge respect for those breeding for what the standard is. That goes for both size/structure and temperament. Do I love Roxy any less for not being a great representation of her breed? Of course not. Would it be a shame if she was bred just because someone liked her size? Yes!

I am new to German Shepherds, and obviously still have a lot to learn, but I'm here, trying to learn as much as I can from people who really know what they're talking about. I really don't think anyone set out to offend people whose dogs don't fit the standard. They just have the experience (and facts!) to back up their opinions.

I hope no one reads this and takes offense. I'm sure all your dogs are wonderful and you love them, and at the end of the day, that's what's really important. I know I love both of mine, even though one is more well-bred than the other.

 

[shepherdmom]

Why do you need a place like this? You've clearly refused to learn. You admitted to not knowing the simplest things, the most basic of thing about our breed standard. Mostly because you've admitted it doesn't matter to you. So then why are you even involved in this discussion? Why should anyone that "knows" waste their time on people that refuse to learn and just stick to their extremely limited opinion on how things should be.

I've learned a lot this board from Kong recipes, to when growth plates close, to not cooking marrow bones before I give them to my dogs. I now feed twice a day, I've switched from science diet to grain free and I've learned the way I train is called NILF. I've learned new crate games, some nose work games and the best toys and grooming tools to use on my dogs. I've no longer give vaccinations every year but follow the 3 year Dr. Dodds protocol. Just because I'm not interested in the anal retentive SV and Schutzhund doesn't mean I haven't learned anything. Doc, Cliff and Jacks Dad have some very informative posts. I'm still in the process of reading Doc's book (finally got new glasses last week and can see the small print Yay! ). I always enjoy Baliff's video's of him training his new mal puppy and I enjoy the chats and recipes exchanged in some of the chat threads.

See the thing is pet owners have feelings too and when certain people feel the need to talk down about pet people I get ticked. Especially when I feel their is no basis and no reason for them to treat pet people as the red headed step children. You may not like the fact that we buy oversize colorful puppies but then again we don't like your little drivey dogs either. and no matter what Anubis_star thinks we are not ruining the breed!

 

[misslesleedavis1]

:thumbup:


Well stated.

Me too. Unless we are involved with working GSDs at a young age most of us start from square one.

I was almost lured into buying an "Old fashioned straight backed" 100 plus pound GSD. I am glad I learned more about the breed, in part thanks to this forum.

This.
I am glad that I am learning everyday about the breed. I am happy we have people like Max and many other forum members that post facts and standards. I am a "pet" person. I don't see anything wrong with it, but thanks to reading and learning and having many helpful connections I will have a chance of stacking the odds in my favor the next dog around.

 

[Stonevintage]

Name calling a "theoretical" breeder is not the same as directly calling a person who you're discussing something with a negative term.

But, feel free to point out where I used a negative term (any of the ones you decided to list) about a board member.

I didn't say that you have ever called anybody that. It was just a simple statement. Isn't it funny how people can interpret things and imply things. The English language and the written word are often left open to interpretation that some might find offensive or take as a personal attack. My only direct reference was to your use of BYB in this particular post.

 

[shepherdmom]

Thanks Shepherds mom

You're welcome.

 

[Anubis_Star]

First and formost: I’ve no interest in researching the topic of GSDs. I am however, the owner of a GSD pup.


Second: Prior to buying my pup, I was talking to a friend and wondered about the term “roach-back” and she emailed me that picture. While reading this thread I saw the term “breed Standard” and I remembered that picture and posted it…Big mistake on my part…Obviously, a big OUCH for you.


Third and Lastly: I do not have a FaceBook account and I think that all I need or want to know about the history of GSDs is right here in your post.

It's simply not the breed standard. Unfortunately there are extremists at all ends, and what many are obviously failing to realize in this thread, extremists hurt breeds. Breeding OS dogs is just as bad as breeding over-angulated dogs to promote an elongated trot in ASL, breeding roached backs in WGSL, breeding dogs that are too sporty simply for an ipo title, breeding big blocky black sable dogs in DDR lines.

There are plenty of GREAT breeders with GREAT dogs that are true to the desired working form and temperament, that also make amazing family pets with appropriate exercise and mental stimulation through training and play.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Just because I'm not interested in the anal retentive SV and Schutzhund doesn't mean I haven't learned anything.

Anal retentive SV and SchH?

If you don't care for breed standards that is your prerogative. It's a free market when it comes to dogs.

However, there are many people who work very hard showing and competing to meet the standards as set forth by the SV.

I wouldn't toss around terms like that and then cry foul when someone is saying something you find personally hurtful.

 

[mycobraracr]

It's simply not the breed standard. Unfortunately there are extremists at all ends, and what many are obviously failing to realize in this thread, extremists hurt breeds. Breeding OS dogs is just as bad as breeding over-angulated dogs to promote an elongated trot in ASL, breeding roached backs in WGSL, breeding dogs that are too sporty simply for an ipo title, breeding big blocky black sable dogs in DDR lines.

There are plenty of GREAT breeders with GREAT dogs that are true to the desired working form and temperament, that also make amazing family pets with appropriate exercise and mental stimulation through training and play.

YES! The GSD is no longer a "jack of all trades". Now it's a specialty breed. You want to do X with your dog? Then go to X breeder. You want to do Y with your dog then go to Y breeder. It's sad. A lot of the true work ability is lost.

I get really tired of all the excuses. "I need a 130lbs GSD for a service dog." Then explain all the 80lbs labs that seem to have taken over that market. "I need a 130lbs GSD to be intimidating." I don't see 60lbs K-9 mals having that issue, and who now owns that market? Just about every field that the GSD used to dominate it's now losing except for one. Guess what that is? Unfortunately, it's happening to all working breeds. People will want what they want and people will continue to supply it to make a buck. Never mind that consequences.

 

[shepherdmom]

Anal retentive SV and SchH?

If you don't care for breed standards that is your prerogative. It's a free market when it comes to dogs.

However, there are many people who work very hard showing and competing to meet the standards as set forth by the SV.

I wouldn't toss around terms like that and then cry foul when someone is saying something you find personally hurtful.

This is getting ridiculous now. Just waiting for the moderators to shut it down.
Unlike saying people who have OS dogs are hurting the breed the SV and SchH are faceless entities similar to the IRS. You can't insult a inanimate object. The SV doesn't recognize whites as German Shepherds therefore I don't recognize the SV. It was poor grammar on my part to insult the SchH with the SV. I don't have anything against the SchH except I think it is all kind of silly. Mondo is much more entertaining to watch.