[Anubis_Star]

I agree with this within reason. In the AKC, oversize is not a disqualifying fault, there is more emphsis put on balance, so if the judges are putting dogs up that are significantly over sized, then people will breed for that, and it is on the judges to take that into consideration more.

Of course if two dogs are pretty equal and the more correctly sized dog shows weakness in temperament, the dog that is outside hieghtwise should get the ribbon, or no 1st place ribbon should be given, though size should not come before temperament or more serious structural issues. If all the dogs in the ring are 2-3 inches taller than they should be, then there is a problem with judging and that should be addressed.

On the other hand, if you have a great bitch who happens to be 25 inches, don't throw away the baby with the bathwater. She is a little over-sized. Perfect is in heaven. A 25 inch bitch will generally weigh in at 70 to 80 pounds. It is not like a 115 pound bitch.

The standard is something we strive to meet. And if our bitch is weak in one area, we want to breed her to a dog who is correct in that area, and who produces dogs that are also correct. If the fault is not a disqualifying fault, then I don't have a problem with using such a dog, so long as it isn't grossly outside of the standard. Remember too that the AKC has only a standard on height and not weight. So dogs can vary widely dependent on what his structure is like, and the amount of bone he has, and what his owner considers fit. What is grossly out of the standard? 10%? 20% If we are only talking height, a bitch should be 22 to 24 inches, 10 percent would make a 26.4 inch bitch. The SV is simpler, they give you half a cm I think. I think that is a bit too strict, depending on the whole picture of the dog.

We're not talking about a 75 lb bitch. We're talking about 120lb "working" dogs.

 

[Anubis_Star]

What's the SV say about a roached back?

What's the akc say about extreme angulations?

 

[Chip18]

Just don't tell people that being over sized makes it a 'real' German Shepherd.

That's my only beef. I don't worry about it as far as the standard and show or work because they generally fail and the breed standard isn't going to change *that* much.

Nope temperament and breed characteristics determine that and my "116lb" boy has that in spades!

and what the heck is that about in blue? Are you telling Doc to get lost?

That is "Rocky's" response to OS dog critics!

Rocky is a diplomat, I am not!

I would be one to say something to the "critics" like..."you know what we get the breed standards! No argument, it just so happens that "some" of us like our GSD's big!

If we happen to think your breed standard dog looks uh "small" by and large we aren't going to say that out loud!

So who is the one who's really concerned about size??

It's a "pet person" thread not a "working dog" issue! I was willing to let it go but no "somebody" always has to come in add there two cents and "insult" our freaking dogs in the process!!!"

Yep, that was... what I was going to say but I didn't! Rocky said, "dad...don't go there," just say what I always say when folks with which I don't want to engage come over:


...."nice to meet you...when you leaving??"


My OS WL 116Lb GSD is a lot more diplomatic than me!

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

What's the SV say about a roached back?

Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!

 

[Chip18]

Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!

Sigh I'm just going to have to not drink coffee and be on this board in the future!

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

What folks need to do, IMO of course, is stop taking it personally when someone says it's not good to specifically breed extremely oversized GSDs and say they are 'real' GSDs.

That's entirely different then telling you your dog is worthless or something unkind of that nature. No one is saying that your dog is a bad dog.

What is being said is that those who intentionally breed for the extreme size are not doing our breed any favors.

People are conflating the two as though they are one in the same they aren't.

I NEVER put someone's dog down. I've seen plenty of over size GSDs around and if the people are happy and love their dog I'm fine with it. They walk by and smile or say Hi, I say Hi back.

The ONLY time I ever say anything, outside of this forum, is when people feel like they MUST inform me that MY dog is not a 'real' GSD because she is (ahem) ONLY 80 pounds. Believe me, that happens more then people being afraid of my dog because she's a GSD. People literally will walk up to me and question MY dog because she's not a 120 pound bruiser.

Well then my friend, THOSE folks who choose to start it, well I'm going to finish it, nicely but directly and succinctly. Edumicate them I will. Yes. mmmmhmm.

Nope temperament and breed characteristics determine that and my "116lb" boy has that in spades!

That is "Rocky's" response to OS dog critics!

Rocky is a diplomat, I am not!

I would be one to say something to the "critics" like..."you know what we get the breed standards! No argument, it just so happens that "some" of us like our GSD's big!

If we happen to think your breed standard dog looks uh "small" by and large we aren't going to say that out loud!

So who is the one who's really concerned about size??

It's a "pet person" thread not a "working dog" issue! I was willing to let it go but no "somebody" always has to come in add there two cents and "insult" our freaking dogs in the process!!!"

Yep, that was... what I was going to say but I didn't! Rocky said, "dad...don't go there," just say what I always say when folks with which I don't want to engage come over:


...."nice to meet you...when you leaving??"


My OS WL 116Lb GSD is a lot more diplomatic than me!

 

[selzer]

Specifically looking to buy an extremely over-sized dog, drives the market so that breeders who are looking to sell whatever sells, will breed specifically for over-sized dogs. This hurts the breed.

We aren't saying your dog is not a real GSD. We are not saying it is unworthy of being a pet, or even unworthy of doing some sort of work. But we are saying that hunting for this aspect hurts the breed, and if you want a dog that is 50% larger than the breed you want should be, why not look into other breeds who are supposed to be that large?

 

[dogma13]

What's the SV say about a roached back?

Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!

Lol

 

[Sabis mom]

What's the SV say about a roached back?

See below, I hate repeating myself.

von Stephanitz spoke specifically to this

"a long, well knit body suitably proportioned for service, not spongy or bulky, who's form guarantees a stretching out and swift gait, with powers of endurance are among the first qualifications"
"Oversize and undersize do not carry the proper size/weight proportion and affects the strength available"
He also specifically noted that the gait of a dog should be judged while the dog was moving free.

And of course this.

Do you know what's really stupid? I am the one arguing for the standard.

My darling Sabi was over size at 82lbs and 27", yet she proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could work, not compete but WORK, without breaking down, for many years.
My old man is just over at 90-95lbs, and nearing his 13th birthday is still challenging me and scaling fences.
My sweet little Shadow is a perfectly within standard bitch, and is just a pet.


Form must follow function.

I am not arguing, or looking for an argument. I simply answered the OP's question.
I never have and never will, called down any ones dog or their preferences, because frankly I like dogs, all dogs, any dogs. I believe that every dog has the right to be with a human who thinks they are "the bestest dog in the whole wide world".

I do however, firmly believe that BREEDERS should be breeding for the betterment of the breed, not to fill consumer demand.

I lifted Sabi, and carried her, a good number of times. I would have been much happier, AT THAT MOMENT if she had been 62lbs instead of 82. The day that she dragged me out of a rioting mob, I was GRATEFUL for every ounce of that 82lbs.

 

[Whiteshepherds]

Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!

Standard equipment on my dogs.

 

[onyx'girl]

Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!

l agree, l have two dogs with those ears and tomorrow they better be gone, vamoose, vanished...

 

[Chip18]

Specifically looking to buy an extremely over-sized dog, drives the market so that breeders who are looking to sell whatever sells, will breed specifically for over-sized dogs. This hurts the breed.

We aren't saying your dog is not a real GSD. We are not saying it is unworthy of being a pet, or even unworthy of doing some sort of work. But we are saying that hunting for this aspect hurts the breed, and if you want a dog that is 50% larger than the breed you want should be, why not look into other breeds who are supposed to be that large?

My guy isn't 50% larger he's 116lbs out of spec, yep but not "King Shepard" size.

For me the whole GSD thing was an accident! I was very content and quite competent in Molosser world. Dogo Argentino is where I was heading before Rocky intersected..down side of being a foster?

While "you" might not being saying negative things about "our" dogs... "others" were! They were upsetting Shepardmom and some of us took "that" personally!!!

My"GSD" put me in the OS dog camp not me! But I protect my dogs, Gunther was technically an American Band Dawg, Struddell was a "White" Boxer and "Rocky is a OS GSD, so I have a history of being outside the norm!

Shepardmom got upset by "some" comments and as they say "crap" rolls down hill! So yeah if she's upset I'm upset!

 

[shepherdmom]

What folks need to do, IMO of course, is stop taking it personally when someone says it's not good to specifically breed extremely oversized GSDs and say they are 'real' GSDs.

That's entirely different then telling you your dog is worthless or something unkind of that nature. No one is saying that your dog is a bad dog.

No what was said was that we are intentionally hurting the breed because we desire oversize dogs.

People who breed over size german shepherds and people who desire oversized german shepherds are only hurting the breed

Nevermind the fact that many of us get our oversize dogs from rescue. But even if we do choose to support a breeder that is breeding oversize dogs it doesn't affect those breeders who breed to standard. We never would have bought a dog from them anyway.

Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!

Awe... now why would that worry you? I can totally get behind fuzzy pink ears. I think my dog might eat my behind if I tried it on her tho.

 

[selzer]

My guy isn't 50% larger he's 116lbs out of spec, yep but not "King Shepard" size.

Actually, a little math:

Males should be 66 to 88 pounds. So, let's stab, right in the middle at 77 pounds. 50% of 77 is about 38 pounds. 38 pounds + 77 pounds is 115 pounds. So, your 116 pound dog is about 50% larger than a GSD ought to be.

But, we probably should be going with the 88#. 88+44 is 132, so, you have 16 pounds to go before you are 50% more than what the breed ought to be. 132 is a huge dog. For females though 50% larger than they ought to be is only 105#. And there are people out there breeding specifically for dogs that are 50% larger than what they ought to be.

Let's turn it around. Lets say I want to breed GSDs to be 50% smaller than they ought to be. For a bitch go with 48 pounds -- low end of the scale. 48 less 50% of 48, would be 24#. If I am specifically trying to breed 24# GSDs, are people going to be all happy about that and running out to buy one? People would call me a monster. What is the difference?

 

[selzer]

No what was said was that we are intentionally hurting the breed because we desire oversize dogs.



Nevermind the fact that many of us get our oversize dogs from rescue. But even if we do choose to support a breeder that is breeding oversize dogs it doesn't affect those breeders who breed to standard. We never would have bought a dog from them anyway.

Awe... now why would that worry you? I can totally get behind fuzzy pink ears. I think my dog might eat my behind if I tried it on her tho.

Specifically looking for significantly over-sized GSDs and breeding for them does hurt the breed. You all aren't thinking, "how can we hurt the breed?" but it doesn't mean that it doesn't all the same. If people weren't actively looking for over-sized GSDs, the breeders who are trying to produce them, would stop.

Lots of things people do without thinking about it hurts the breed, and dog ownership in general. When people buy from pet stores, they aren't wanting bitches to be kept in terrible conditions and bred until they are unable to produce, and then dumped. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[Whiteshepherds]

Actually, a little math:

Shouldn't you be comparing proportion rather than weight? When people talk about larger GSD's don't they normally mean taller/longer? (and the weight goes up along with the size)

In order to be 50% larger than a standard 24" GSD wouldn't the other dog be 36" tall?

 

[shepherdmom]

Specifically looking for significantly over-sized GSDs and breeding for them does hurt the breed. You all aren't thinking, "how can we hurt the breed?" but it doesn't mean that it doesn't all the same. If people weren't actively looking for over-sized GSDs, the breeders who are trying to produce them, would stop.

And making them stop benefits the breed how? I'm sure the working line breeders would like the show line breeders to stop and vice versa and we would all like the puppy mills to quit breeding but how does getting rid of a quality breeder who health tests and produces a over size or a white shepherd and fills a niche market help the breed?

 

[martemchik]

I find it funny that the people constantly quoting Stephanitz about the breed standard, are the same ones that refuse his temperament test as the preferred way of proving breedworthiness.

But this is America, and accepting one paragraph of something while completely ignoring the others is a very acceptable thing to do.

 

[Stonevintage]

And making them stop benefits the breed how? I'm sure the working line breeders would like the show line breeders to stop and vice versa and we would all like the puppy mills to quit breeding but how does getting rid of a quality breeder who health tests and produces a over size or a white shepherd and fills a niche market help the breed?

I agree. Think about what % of GSD's today are an inch too tall or 10lbs over, the majority of the market and popularity of the breed shows that these things do not affect desirability. Most GSD owners do not give a darn if their dog conforms anymore. That only matters to the "purists" and those that will be competing. They don't have to worry about the breed being compromised, they are such a small part of the picture, but they will never deviate from the standard. There will always be a rich and diverse stock to pull from because of these dedicated fanatics.

The GSD today, continues to be in the top 2 most desired breed, yet a vast number have been out of standard.

 

[royals17]

whoa, my dog's way bigger than that standard. Dang.