Name calling a "theoretical" breeder is not the same as directly calling a person who you're discussing something with a negative term.

But, feel free to point out where I used a negative term (any of the ones you decided to list) about a board member.

 

I didn't say that you have ever called anybody that. It was just a simple statement. Isn't it funny how people can interpret things and imply things. The English language and the written word are often left open to interpretation that some might find offensive or take as a personal attack. My only direct reference was to your use of BYB in this particular post.

 

Just because I'm not interested in the anal retentive SV and Schutzhund doesn't mean I haven't learned anything.

Anal retentive SV and SchH?

If you don't care for breed standards that is your prerogative. It's a free market when it comes to dogs.

However, there are many people who work very hard showing and competing to meet the standards as set forth by the SV.

I wouldn't toss around terms like that and then cry foul when someone is saying something you find personally hurtful.

 

This is getting ridiculous now. Just waiting for the moderators to shut it down.
Unlike saying people who have OS dogs are hurting the breed the SV and SchH are faceless entities similar to the IRS. You can't insult a inanimate object. The SV doesn't recognize whites as German Shepherds therefore I don't recognize the SV. It was poor grammar on my part to insult the SchH with the SV. I don't have anything against the SchH except I think it is all kind of silly. Mondo is much more entertaining to watch.

 

Well if you're going to make completely baseless comments like that one, of course the thread will get shut down. The SV is the dog club that controls the registration of the German Shepherd Dog in Germany, it's like the AKC just for GSD, and the GSDCA if they controlled the breeding of GSD. It is not a "faceless entity." Schutzhund, is not an entity. It is a breed test/sport/activity consisting of 3 phases that are meant to test the nerve, intelligence, and temperament of the German Shepherd Dog.

I also deal with the IRS enough to know that they are also not a "faceless."

Why involve yourself in a conversation about the breed standard when you are clearly not interested in the historical significance of the various entities and requirements that were involved in the creation of this breed that you claim to love so much?

I'm not sure what Mondo is.

 

I'm assuming she meant mondioring, which really just makes me laugh because large dogs NEVER do well at mondio. To go for your mondioring III title you have to do a 45 minute routine straight through, complete with a 7.5 ft palisade to climb and 13 foot long jump.

I will rightfully admit, my boy is OS. His parents were both within standard although both at the large end for their sex. He is 28 inches tall, 83 lbs now at 2 yrs of age although I expect him to mature out around 90lbs lean. He is an outlier for the breed, not something bred for by the breeder.

My club does both mondio and ipo, the only reason I didn't do mondio with him was his size. As it is I don't plan on working him in ipo much past 6 yrs old. I have no desire to destroy his joints with arthritis

 

Martemchik,

I think most of us have quoted the standard, and possibly what the breed was originally intended to be because a lot of these OS dogs are marketed as being old-fashioned or original or real.

If we must take all of what Von Stephanitz wrote or none of it, we should be slamming whelps against the wall if the bitch has more than 7. No breeder is doing that nowadays.

Neither standard requires a minimum of HGH or IPO. Sorry. It is part of the SV requirements for breeding, not the US or Canada or the UK or all the other places where GSDs are like Australia, India, South America and so forth. The German standard has a nice paragraph about temperament, but it never says the dog must be titled in a specific breedworthy temperament test.

 

Thank You!

 

Keep doing what you're doing then Sue.

I'm glad you've realized in America you don't need titles. Who cares about temperament in America? As long as they lay on couch and don't bite little Timmy...they're perfect.

Maybe if the United States had something like the SV, police departments wouldn't feel the need to import every other dog from Germany in order to have a good working K9. And sport trainers wouldn't feel the need to import their dogs as well in order to compete on a national and world level.

Instead, we can't handle having anyone tell us what we can and can't do. This is America, we do what we want. I've already had this discussion before...instead of trying to increase the current standards, we've got people on this forum arguing to lower them. Why do IPO? We have umbrellas we can pop in dog's faces and test them that way? If a dog can handle an umbrella...surely it can handle a real threat.

Working dog? What's that? Just needs to go from the couch, to the dish, and then to the back yard. If it barks at the doorbell...that's a bonus.

 

and that dog l buy in America, better have a 3 year guarantee on health.

 

I have never been so immersed in information about this breed before I got my current GSD last Summer. I know for a fact now, that none of my previous 3 GSD's would have met breed standard for one reason or another.

I respect those that have put in so much time and effort to take this breed as far as it can go in the show and working arenas. That's great. When the dust settles, there will still be the masses that no longer require their GSD to perform to working or showline levels. That's ok too. There has always been a divide and that's ok too.

I don't think those that do not own GSD's that are within standard have all been "duped" or are not educated. When someone "locks in" to any kind of "this is the way it has to be" mindset, there will be arguments.

The day when I will agree to what people are doing with the standard is correct, will be the day that a line is developed where the dog will be able win in the show ring as well as the trials. Who also makes the ideal family pet. This dog will also need the temperament and drive to accommodate all these requirements.
Until that line is developed, I'm not sure what the argument is.

Who's GSD is less screwed up?

 

All I know is that my dog is only 50lbs so I don't think she's actually a German Shepherd.

 

Naw. It's not her size that throws people off, it's the ear floofies.



Runs fast, bites hard.

 

Horand with Mary v Grafrath, the 2nd registered GSD. Horand was 24" tall

Next to Hektor v. Schwaben, Peter von Pritschen was another offspring of Horand and prominent founder and one of my favorite original german shepherds.

 

Peter's butt is higher than his withers. I thought that was a no-no?

 

Holy cow this got intense.

All I can add is my girl is 11 months old, 24" atw, and 73 lb. She needs to stop growing! Her parents aren't huge and she's just a regular American show line dog.

The guy who said a GSD should be 70 lb or under was closer to correct in my opinion. I think according to the AKC standard she can be up to 24" tall and 75 lb. Oops.

 

My older boy was 25". 107 lbs at his heaviest, this photo was taken when he was about 98lbs. NOT an appropriate weight for his size. After 2 years of dieting and working through his spondylosis, I got him down to 80lbs when he passed away. My goal for him was 75lbs.

 

Well I agree at least quite a bit with Dani.

Some of those that are so against OS GSDs forget that the problems arise from their own sacred cow as well. People breed specifically for k9, sport, show, color, pet, etc...

What's the difference? . Gsd should be a versatile dog but I guess not many people want that anymore. They now need to be specialized for eveyone's likes and dislikes

It's really unfortunate.

 

I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad Max kept changing type after Pilot...that face is disturbing.

 

Hey, they couldn't photoshop back then

 

Phylax society existed prior to Max coming into the picture. Ultimately, most of the members of his newly founded organization were former members of the Phylax society.

Perhaps there is a case of semantics here. We are talking about a day month and year that an organization was formed and committee members appointed as opposed to what was obviously a breeding program that was well on its way to resembling the GSD as we know him today.

IMHO, Max simply had the means to establish control, refinement and management of the new breed which so much hard work was already put into. His idea was not new, it was not an "out of the blue" inspiration that was gifted only to him. This was a process and as you can see, the effort was around for many years before he got involved. Whites are definitely there. I guess it depends on if you want to start the history of the breed when the paperwork was filed or look past that.

 

You can't discuss the Standard without understanding the early history of the breed - the breeders, the dogs, and even the infighting of the founders of the SV (Stephinitz wasn't the only man involved in creating this breed, although he dominated and eliminated many of the best breeders along the way). The Standard isn't the same as it was when Stephinitz wrote it - so to talk about it as the Holy Grail is humorous in my opinion. People quote the Standard and Stephinitz as if they are one in the same, but they are not. Yes Stephinitz built this breed and wrote a Standard based on his desires. However, his Standard has been re-written many times by folks who imposed their desires about the breed. Add that to the fact that judges - who were breeders long before they became judges; many who were/are kennel blind; the loose application of many aspects of whatever Standard they are using; the abuse of power; greed; and money and there is little doubt why this breed is in a downward fall. To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.
If you want, PM me and I will be happy to have a dialogue about the Standard with you.

 

To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.

Sadly, it falls on deaf ears. It isn't the specifics of the war, it's the act of the battle.

 

overweight seems to be the constant with oversize...seeing ribs must be scary to those that like the OS? Why is bigger better?
Why is weight always included in the dogs description of the OS breeders? What happened to achievements being a way to describe them instead of how much they weigh?

 

I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.

 

imho, the small gene pool is bringing down dog breeds, not standards.

 

As a pet owner I too am very grateful for the knowledge and wisdom shared by those so devoted to the GSD, thank you.

 

I guess as many have stated, it really doesn't matter. Someone who wants a big old fashioned gsd will always beable to hit the Internet and find one. For those who want a dog that can work and comes from titled and rated lineage, there will always be breeders for them. Their are different lines anyone could choose from, different coats. It a large selection in the long run.

 

Buddha Hound says, live in the moment, go play with your dogs!

 

Personally, I steer people who ask me, away from GSDs for the most part. It's not an easy breed to research, purchase, own and train for most people.

I just saw an ad on our local pet rescue/adopt FB page of people who were rehoming a cat. Reason, 'we don't have the time to give it the care and attention it needs'.

A cat, one cat, was too much work!

 

Slap the hood emblem on a Civic and call it a Ferrari.

 

So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?

A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".

Then you take that dog and put him into the environment where 90% or better end up - in a home as a pet. Yea, that will work out just fine.

So those that want the standard are saying that the vast majority of people who own and enjoy the GSD breed shouldn't have them? Are you saying that they should take a high drive dog and keep him in a crate or house most of the day because there is a concern for escape, theft or poisoning while they are away from the house?

Standing on principal is one thing, practicality and reality should also be considered.

 

Like stated earlier...your lack of experience with the types of dogs we're discussing leads you to believe that a "good working dog" can't be in a family environment and not be worked in Schutzhund. This is an extremely popular opinion of people that have done a lot of reading on the internet, and not actually seen how dogs that excel at Schutzhund, or even police dogs, have littermates that are living out their lives in family homes.

I currently have a bitch in my house, who I expect to see at the IPO nationals this year, her sibling (same litter) is a K9 in Florida, the rest of her 8 siblings, are living out happy, healthy lives in family homes just like yours. My other bitch, has a sibling that was at nationals last year, has a sibling that is currently IPO2 and will trial for a 3 this year (owned by a woman in her 60s), has a sibling that will also be trialing for Schutzhund in the near future, and she will hopefully also title by the end of the year. My bitch, lived with a 65 year old woman for the first 2 years of her life, and the only reason I have her is that the woman had a stroke. The other 3 siblings from her litter...are all in nice, family homes, and have never seen a bite sleeve in their life.

The idea that regular people can't handle a good, well bred GSD, just lets me see how little faith you have in yourselves and in others. It's not that difficult. A dog with a little more drive isn't the end of the world. I know for a fact that 95% of people on this forum could handle a dog that comes out of the litters I just talked about...with working K9s and high level IPO competitors.

 

Shepherdmom…how is any of us supposed to educate people if they don’t want to be educated? The few that come on here, get insulted because they get told that an OS GSD is incorrect, then leave…they don’t make that big of a dent. Like you said…the majority of GSD owners don’t go on web forums, they do what they want anyways. I can’t affect those people in any way, shape, or form. I don’t insult anyone, I really don’t care what your dog looks like, what you choose to do with it, ect. You’re right…most people are “pet owners” and guess what, my breeder sells more than 50% of their dogs to pet homes, out of the same litter…that produced a national IPO competitor this year, and out of a future litter that will also have a national IPO competitor in there. What you don’t want to accept…is that out of a litter of dogs, bred for sport/show/work/whatever, if done right, there will be puppies that would be more than happy living in a pet home. It’s impossible to place 10 puppies into Schutzhund or working homes…they go to pet homes, and they live happily in those homes.

There weren’t any derogatory comments and no one insulted dogs, the statements that were made, were TAKEN as insults. When someone says “breeding OS GSD is wrong,” people equate that to “my OS GSD is bad.” That’s not even close to what people are saying. I’m not even sure why you’re arguing this, your bitch is 1” above standard, she’s not what is generally considered OS. I’ve seen dogs and breeders who consistently produce GSDs at or above 30” at the withers. That’s the crazy I’m talking about. More than likely, your bitch was produced by two standard sized dogs that for some reason threw a larger puppy. It happens.

 

I don't know shepherdmom, the majority of people on this forum are very helpful and nice. If their is a question about pedigree or health someone is always around to answer it. I guess it's all in how you read things. There is always going to be one or 2 that go on a tangent but that's really in anything you do in life.
Lots of people, pet people get GSD'S for whatever reason, they may choose to do research about the breed or not. They may come here and get told their dogs crappy? Which is never nice but it's either going make you go "oh, okay what's crappy about the dog" or its going to make you angry and hurt, but these are just opinions and every has one.

 

Side note.
I'm a pet person with not 1 or 2 but 3 crappy dogs. I love them though. So they are not the "standard" although one looks real good!
It doesn't stop me from reading or posting or chatting it up with people that have experience. I enjoy reading what they say,I like learning about the history and really like the IPO sports.