[martemchik]

Shepherdmom…how is any of us supposed to educate people if they don’t want to be educated? The few that come on here, get insulted because they get told that an OS GSD is incorrect, then leave…they don’t make that big of a dent. Like you said…the majority of GSD owners don’t go on web forums, they do what they want anyways. I can’t affect those people in any way, shape, or form. I don’t insult anyone, I really don’t care what your dog looks like, what you choose to do with it, ect. You’re right…most people are “pet owners” and guess what, my breeder sells more than 50% of their dogs to pet homes, out of the same litter…that produced a national IPO competitor this year, and out of a future litter that will also have a national IPO competitor in there. What you don’t want to accept…is that out of a litter of dogs, bred for sport/show/work/whatever, if done right, there will be puppies that would be more than happy living in a pet home. It’s impossible to place 10 puppies into Schutzhund or working homes…they go to pet homes, and they live happily in those homes.

There weren’t any derogatory comments and no one insulted dogs, the statements that were made, were TAKEN as insults. When someone says “breeding OS GSD is wrong,” people equate that to “my OS GSD is bad.” That’s not even close to what people are saying. I’m not even sure why you’re arguing this, your bitch is 1” above standard, she’s not what is generally considered OS. I’ve seen dogs and breeders who consistently produce GSDs at or above 30” at the withers. That’s the crazy I’m talking about. More than likely, your bitch was produced by two standard sized dogs that for some reason threw a larger puppy. It happens.

 

[misslesleedavis1]

I don't know shepherdmom, the majority of people on this forum are very helpful and nice. If their is a question about pedigree or health someone is always around to answer it. I guess it's all in how you read things. There is always going to be one or 2 that go on a tangent but that's really in anything you do in life.
Lots of people, pet people get GSD'S for whatever reason, they may choose to do research about the breed or not. They may come here and get told their dogs crappy? Which is never nice but it's either going make you go "oh, okay what's crappy about the dog" or its going to make you angry and hurt, but these are just opinions and every has one.

 

[martemchik]

So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?

A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".

Then you take that dog and put him into the environment where 90% or better end up - in a home as a pet. Yea, that will work out just fine.

So those that want the standard are saying that the vast majority of people who own and enjoy the GSD breed shouldn't have them? Are you saying that they should take a high drive dog and keep him in a crate or house most of the day because there is a concern for escape, theft or poisoning while they are away from the house?

Standing on principal is one thing, practicality and reality should also be considered.

Like stated earlier...your lack of experience with the types of dogs we're discussing leads you to believe that a "good working dog" can't be in a family environment and not be worked in Schutzhund. This is an extremely popular opinion of people that have done a lot of reading on the internet, and not actually seen how dogs that excel at Schutzhund, or even police dogs, have littermates that are living out their lives in family homes.

I currently have a bitch in my house, who I expect to see at the IPO nationals this year, her sibling (same litter) is a K9 in Florida, the rest of her 8 siblings, are living out happy, healthy lives in family homes just like yours. My other bitch, has a sibling that was at nationals last year, has a sibling that is currently IPO2 and will trial for a 3 this year (owned by a woman in her 60s), has a sibling that will also be trialing for Schutzhund in the near future, and she will hopefully also title by the end of the year. My bitch, lived with a 65 year old woman for the first 2 years of her life, and the only reason I have her is that the woman had a stroke. The other 3 siblings from her litter...are all in nice, family homes, and have never seen a bite sleeve in their life.

The idea that regular people can't handle a good, well bred GSD, just lets me see how little faith you have in yourselves and in others. It's not that difficult. A dog with a little more drive isn't the end of the world. I know for a fact that 95% of people on this forum could handle a dog that comes out of the litters I just talked about...with working K9s and high level IPO competitors.

 

[shepherdmom]

Stop falling back onto that thought process of "boo hoo, you hurt my feelings" just because one opinion was made about how people who buy from BYBs were hurting the breed, and because a couple facts you don't agree with were stated.

I'm not the one you are scaring away. They have already left. But according to Lillie and Jack's Dad the real experts also have already left, which doesn't sunrise me either. In any case my little 40 lb mix is crawling up on my lap demanding attention and then I have to go get ready for work. We can continue this later if the thread is still open when I get home.

 

[misslesleedavis1]

Side note.
I'm a pet person with not 1 or 2 but 3 crappy dogs. I love them though. So they are not the "standard" although one looks real good!
It doesn't stop me from reading or posting or chatting it up with people that have experience. I enjoy reading what they say,I like learning about the history and really like the IPO sports.

 

[Anubis_Star]

So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?

A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".

Then you take that dog and put him into the environment where 90% or better end up - in a home as a pet. Yea, that will work out just fine.

So those that want the standard are saying that the vast majority of people who own and enjoy the GSD breed shouldn't have them? Are you saying that they should take a high drive dog and keep him in a crate or house most of the day because there is a concern for escape, theft or poisoning while they are away from the house?

Standing on principal is one thing, practicality and reality should also be considered.

I am saying many people that own german shepherds shouldn't. And that is made obvious by the high number of poorly bred german shepherds that are plagued with health problems and poor temperaments.

That being said, there is no reason a solid, stable, well bred WL dog can't be kept as a pet if given proper stimulation. This means you do something with your dog. Run it daily. Bike with it. Swim it. Train it daily - mental stimulation is key. That's the nice thing about german shepherds vs some breeds like malinois - they actually tend to have off switches. Any of berlin's siblings are perfectly capable of doing well in IPO. Only 3 actually are doing IPO. the other 6 are perfectly happy, healthy, active, well loved pets.

My dog is not kept crated all day because he's good in the house. But there is nothing wrong with crating a dog while you are at work, again if you simply cater to their mental and physical needs as outlined above.

And yes, if you don't have the active lifestyle to train and exercise a high energy dog, then you should NOT have a german shepherd or any other working breed! I don't understand why that concept is so hard to understand.

 

[Anubis_Star]

I'm not the one you are scaring away. They have already left. But according to Lillie and Jack's Dad the real experts also have already left, which doesn't sunrise me either. In any case my little 40 lb mix is crawling up on my lap demanding attention and then I have to go get ready for work. We can continue this later if the thread is still open when I get home.

This is why kids can't win trophies in many schools anymore. God forbid facts or statements insult anyone.

And really I only say that, because for those of us (un)fortunate enough to work in the veterinary or behavior field, we get to see first hand what happens when you start to water down and breed dogs to suit the uninformed, uneducated majority.

 

[GatorDog]

I see maybe 2-5 GSD's a day and can't identify any of them according to the standard. They're all upwards of 90lbs, BYB dogs that are muzzled on their way through the door and blowing their anal glands because they're terrified of slippery floors or of the 120lb female technician that walks in to help them. And I'm not exaggerating. In one week when I see upwards of 10 GSD's not a single one has a stable enough temperament to hold themselves together at the vet.

 

[GatorDog]

But hey, that must be easier to deal with than a dog bred for work. Because I honestly can't see the reasoning to support that type of breeding otherwise.

 

[Anubis_Star]

I see maybe 2-5 GSD's a day and can't identify any of them according to the standard. They're all upwards of 90lbs, BYB dogs that are muzzled on their way through the door and blowing their anal glands because they're terrified of slippery floors or of the 120lb female technician that walks in to help them. And I'm not exaggerating. In one week when I see upwards of 10 GSD's not a single one has a stable enough temperament to hold themselves together at the vet.

But hey, that must be easier to deal with than a dog bred for work. Because I honestly can't see the reasoning to support that type of breeding otherwise.

Exactly

All of my coworkers hated german shepherds until they met my german shepherds

 

[Chip18]

as for oversize, and yes there are some that for whatever reason want the 100 pound plus gsd. i would check out king and shilo shepherds. imho, basically fairly new breeds although advertised as old style. now let the bashing begin.

Hmmm....yeah...OK...suffice to say, an OS GSD is "not" a Shilo or a King.

I don't quite get how it is that "some" of the "experts" tend to think that because "our" OS GSD's dogs fall out on one spec "weight" that seems to somehow meant...they are not GSD's and none of the other attributes of a GSD are present?????


Yeah...that would be a mistake, in some cases...just saying.

 

[martemchik]

Hmmm....yeah...OK...suffice to say, an OS GSD is "not" a Shilo or a King.

I don't quite get how it is that "some" of the "experts" tend to think that because "our" OS GSD's dogs fall out on one spec "weight" that seems to somehow meant...they are not GSD's and none of the other attributes of a GSD are present?????


Yeah...that would be a mistake, in some cases...just saying.

Seriously…stop making this about your ONE dog. This is a completely theoretical, macro discussion. It’s not about your ONE dog. On top of that…how many GSD, King Shepherds, or Shiloh Shepherds have you interacted with? Like, seriously interacted, where you spent more than just 5 minutes with the dog, or seen it in passing? On top of that, how often have you really been able to tell what is temperament, and what is training? How do you know that the traits your dog shows are what is expected out of a GSD? What makes YOUR dog the perfect example of GSD temperament and the breed? Have you had outside, non-biased, experienced people judge your dog and give you their opinion on your dog? The point is (nothing to do with your dog) what makes YOU a good judge of GSD character and temperament? What have you done in your life, that when you look at your dog, you know it’s a prime example of the breed? Or is your opinion highly biased, and basically based on just the small amount of experience you probably had with a few GSD growing up?

That is the difference between many “sport/show” people, dog trainers, and even people that work at vets, and then the pet homes. WE SEE A LOT MORE SHEPHERDS. We see tons of dogs. I was in a club, that had 250 members, most of which owned at least one dog, if not two dogs. I got to interact with and watch over 100 dogs get trained on any given weekend. I currently train with a group of people and see anywhere from 10-20 dogs at one location and a different 10-20 dog at a different one every weekend. I get to see the dogs, talk to their handlers, talk to their breeders many times. I have a lot more than just a Wikipedia definition of what a breed temperament should be like…

Tell me…what is the difference in temperament between a GSD and a King Shepherd? A “breed” of dog that is basically 95% GSD, and probably 100% GSD just that they picked the biggest ones, bred them, and got tired of getting flack from “GSD purists” and so they “created” a new breed. Btw…not an AKC or FCI recognized breed, and it will never be because there isn’t enough variation away from GSD.

 

[GypsyGhost]

Hmmm....yeah...OK...suffice to say, an OS GSD is "not" a Shilo or a King.

I don't quite get how it is that "some" of the "experts" tend to think that because "our" OS GSD's dogs fall out on one spec "weight" that seems to somehow meant...they are not GSD's and none of the other attributes of a GSD are present?????


Yeah...that would be a mistake, in some cases...just saying.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think anyone is saying that over sized GSD's are not GSD's. I think what people are saying is that GSD's should not be bred JUST because they are large. I think the problem many have with those who breed out of standard GSD's is that size may not be the only thing that doesn't conform to breed standards. I think this is why Shiloh Shepherds, King Shepherds and Berger Blanc Suisse breeds were created. They wanted a different set of standards. That's ok! Hopefully they are successful in their endeavors and breed solid, less drivey dogs that aren't designed to work, but still have good health and good temperaments. Hopefully there will be good breeders of those breeds that health test and have a clear vision of what they want for that breed.

I personally think the Berger Blanc Suisse is a beautiful dog, it just didn't fit what I wanted for my lifestyle. I also think King and Shiloh Shepherds are beautiful, but I couldn't imagine asking a dog that large to keep up with me. That doesn't mean they aren't wonderful dogs. It also doesn't mean they shouldn't be around, or are any less wonderful than GSD's for the right person. But they still need a breed standard if they are going to become established. Otherwise, how do you know you are getting what you want?

I really hope no one thinks I am bashing their dogs here, that was not my intention.

 

[GatorDog]

People were bragging about the 140lb GSD in my lobby just the other day. He had to be moved to a room immediately because he was so dog aggressive that he couldnt see another dog at all without completely losing it (caution notices all over his chart) and the owner isn't strong enough to hold him back. So I set him up in a room and the woman continues to tell me it's because he's "just protective" and his sire was even bigger and "wouldn't let anyone on their property because he was so fiercely protective."

I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.

 

[mycobraracr]

I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.

^^^ this!!!! My wife goes through this everyday. People don't get it. Then when a Gsd comes in and wife says it's garbage she's called a snob and a purist. Funny thing is, when we bring our dogs in, no one believes they do protection work because they don't try to eat everything that moves. Try and explain its because they are actually confident, so they don't need to try and "scare" off every little thing and you get the deer in the headlights look like you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Chip18]

Tell me…what is the difference in temperament between a GSD and a King Shepherd? A “breed” of dog that is basically 95% GSD, and probably 100% GSD just that they picked the biggest ones, bred them, and got tired of getting flack from “GSD purists” and so they “created” a new breed. Btw…not an AKC or FCI recognized breed, and it will never be because there isn’t enough variation away from GSD.

I know "enough" to know there is a significant difference! all I need to know.

In any group there is always that one guy! So"I" can't speak for people pet but "you" get to slam all OS dogs??


Well I Do represent JQP to a degree and what "we" hear is:

Crap yeah we get it "We Don't Care!"

Sorry did not realize that some members:

To answer your question, no I have not done 100's or 1000's of dogs only a handful and a couple of those were challenging.

The undercurrent in the OS thread seems to be that our dogs are lumbering and weak nerved, crap bags that snap at vets???

Well my "one" OS GSD is not like that and there are others like him! So for purposes of this "thread" the fact that I live trained and rehabbed the type of dog that is the subject matter of this thread, qualifies me to speak up!!

So if you want the thread locked??? Keep saying stuff like that about "our" dogs!

 

[Chip18]

I could be wrong here, but I don't think anyone is saying that over sized GSD's are not GSD's.

Nope not originally but "We" were told that if "we" want a 100+ pointy nose dog we should get something else!

I think this is why Shiloh Shepherds, King Shepherds and Berger Blanc Suisse breeds were created. They wanted a different set of standards. That's ok! Hopefully they are successful in their endeavors and breed solid, less drivey dogs that aren't designed to work, but still have good health and good temperaments. Hopefully there will be good breeders of those breeds that health test and have a clear vision of what they want for that breed.

I personally think the Berger Blanc Suisse is a beautiful dog, it just didn't fit what I wanted for my lifestyle. I also think King and Shiloh Shepherds are beautiful, but I couldn't imagine asking a dog that large to keep up with me. That doesn't mean they aren't wonderful dogs. It also doesn't mean they shouldn't be around, or are any less wonderful than GSD's for the right person. But they still need a breed standard if they are going to become established. Otherwise, how do you know you are getting what you want?

I really hope no one thinks I am bashing their dogs here, that was not my intention.

No problem and yes that is the why of the Shilo's and the kings!

 

[martemchik]

The fact that you ignored/didn’t answer any of my questions, tells me everything I need to know about your experience with all 3 “breeds.”

I never once said anything bad about OS Shepherds in my post, you can scan through it, nowhere in there is OS even typed. So I’m not sure why you’re getting angry and saying I’m lumping them all into one group. I didn’t. The dogs I am lumping into a group are the non-temperament tested dogs, the dogs that aren’t bred for any purpose except for the fact that they look this way or that way. Like I said about 10 pages ago…I’ve yet to see a single breeder, that advertises “over-sized, traditional, ect” GSD that temperament tests their dogs beyond them living in their house and not eating their family members. There are a few out there that accomplish a CGC with their dog, something most dogs can do at 6 months of age, especially dogs that don’t have that “drive” I’ve been talking about. Less drive, calmer dog, passes the test. Pretty simple.

Like I said…point me to a GSD breeder, that is breeding oversized dogs, and is also temperament testing them the way the breed founder imagined, and I’ll be more than happy if you got a dog from that breeder. I still haven’t found them.

So you’ve rehabbed one dog…good. I’m very happy for you and for the dog. It’s a huge accomplishment. But you have more than one person on this thread, that sees dozens of German Shepherds, telling you how things are with the breed, but you choose to live in your blissful world of the handful of dogs you’ve owned so they must all be like the ones you’ve owned. The dog you rehabbed? Do you know what happens to that kind of dog if he doesn’t find a home willing to rehab it? He got lucky he found you. Most of those dogs, don’t make it very long in life. Now…are there dogs that come from working lines, or show lines, that end up having those issues? Absolutely! But overall, it’s not the dogs that are coming from highly titled parents and reputable breeders that have those problems.

 

[Chip18]

People were bragging about the 140lb GSD in my lobby just the other day. He had to be moved to a room immediately because he was so dog aggressive that he couldnt see another dog at all without completely losing it (caution notices all over his chart) and the owner isn't strong enough to hold him back. So I set him up in a room and the woman continues to tell me it's because he's "just protective" and his sire was even bigger and "wouldn't let anyone on their property because he was so fiercely protective."

I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.

At 130 pounds I would question what exactly that dog was myself??

In any case, it's a dog that is going to need some "serious" help if he is ever going to be right.

 

[ILoveBella478]

So the fact my female is supposed to get to 90# isn't a good thing?