[misslesleedavis1]

I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Yup. Argumentum ad Hominem.

Quite the opposite, that is going to make sure that there are still shepherds being bred which match the breed standard and are capable of what this breed should be capable of.

Btw...I didn't call your dog fat. So if you're going to fling insults, fling them at the people that have "insulted" you. Don't bring me into your petty fights with others and make people that might not go back to read the prior pages think that I was the one that said those things about your dog. I didn't. I have not said a single bad thing about YOUR dog, or anyone else's dog.

Truthfully, the only people that have gotten personal...have been you and stonevintage. That's what ends up happening when you run out of facts to back up your position, name calling and then an attempt at discrediting the person you're having a discussion with by bringing up things that have nothing to do with the current subject.

 

[Stonevintage]

Didn't realize you were such good friends and knew so much about him! Fill me in when you get a chance.

I'm not. That information is only something he posted about himself when he was explaining to women how their bodies worked in a previous post.

 

[huntergreen]

First, I'm not 20. Second, no matter my age, I have more experience in this breed than 99% of the people on this forum. I've probably seen more German Shepeherds, of all sorts of lines, in the short time I've been "in" the breed, than most people will see in their lifetime. Not only have I seen them, many times I've also spoken to their handlers and breeders at length about the dogs and about why they do what they do.

The arguments I'm talking about are the one's that are just "this is how I want it and that's how I'll have it." There is no basis for it. It's just what it is. If, as a GSD owner, you believe that the breed is supposed to be 120lbs. You are uneducated. There is no other word for it. Maybe delusional? But really...there is no other way to explain why someone would search out an OS GSD other than PERSONAL PREFERENCE which is not based in any sort of historical fact. I don't care that people do that, but that's the only word for that opinion. If you can't back it up with anything other than your own extremely limited experience with GSD (usually the GSD they grew up with), it's not really a valid fact. So it's just an opinion, and you shouldn't really guide other people's decision making with YOUR opinion. Especially when it comes to something way bigger than you, like the GSD breed.

The point of having a BREED is so that things are as close to BLACK AND WHITE as possible. If it wasn't, you'd just have a bunch of mutts.

I hope that one day you decide to take your dog to actual protection training, or maybe agility, or maybe some other sport...and it performs like you want. Or maybe, you'll take it to one of those venues, and the dog won't do it. You'll understand what I mean then.

The way breeders make "pet dogs" these days is simple...take out all the drive. Dogs without drive are safe, they don't make their own decisions, they don't want to do anything period. My point originally was don't quote Max, or some long lost literature on the origins of the breed if you're going to completely discount the fact that this was always supposed to be a working breed. If you want to use Max to back up your point that "OS GSD" were acceptable, you should also accept the SV, you should accept Schutzhund as a breed test. You can't just accept the parts of what he said that you like, and dismiss the parts that he said that make you do more work to breed dogs.

this is actually a pretty good post and does go to the heart of many viewpoints here. i will just add, that take 10 gsd aficionados put them in a room to discuss the standard and they will emerge with 10 different interpretations. now, my opinion for what it is worth. the gsd already has been split a few times. we have the different lines. the good news is that there are now flavors for all. the purest will protect and continue to strive to better the WL. the american showline have their niche as do the germ showline.

as for oversize, and yes there are some that for whatever reason want the 100 pound plus gsd. i would check out king and shilo shepherds. imho, basically fairly new breeds although advertised as old style. now let the bashing begin.

 

[shepherdmom]

Quite the opposite, that is going to make sure that there are still shepherds being bred which match the breed standard and are capable of what this breed should be capable of.

Btw...I didn't call your dog fat. So if you're going to fling insults, fling them at the people that have "insulted" you. Don't bring me into your petty fights with others and make people that might not go back to read the prior pages think that I was the one that said those things about your dog. I didn't. I have not said a single bad thing about YOUR dog, or anyone else's dog.

Truthfully, the only people that have gotten personal...have been you and stonevintage. That's what ends up happening when you run out of facts to back up your position, name calling and then an attempt at discrediting the person you're having a discussion with by bringing up things that have nothing to do with the current subject.

I didn't say you called my dog fat. You were not that impolite. Which I appreciate by the way. The lack of manners around here is appalling.

You are however in denial about the fact the pet market is driving things. As much as you and others hate it we spend billions on our dogs a year and those looking for our $$ will continue to cater to whims. Unless you and others like you decide to get flexible the Byb and Puppy Mills will win and the German Shepherd and other breeds are going to be the causalities.

 

[huntergreen]

I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.

imho, the small gene pool is bringing down dog breeds, not standards.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

:thumbup:

It's a free market world, which is good when it comes to widgets.

The reality is there are GSD looking dogs which are large like Shilohs and Kings, which is fine. If that's someone wants that more power to them.

What I don't get is why disregard or totally dismiss the standard for the GSD in order to support getting an intentionally bred out of standard dog?

It's not a zero sum game, getting a Shiloh, loving it and appreciating it as a Shiloh doesn't hurt the GSD just as loving and having a GSD (bred to the standard) doesn't hurt the Shilohs. :shrug:

I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.

 

[huntergreen]

RE: The post to which you were responding. What of substance was incorrect in what Max stated? What Max stated was the absolute truth. I'm 51 and work daily with people who want to have dogs that behave exactly as Max outlined, backyard to food dish to couch.

His age is as irrelevant as the age of my last surgeon, who is younger then me, yet saved me from an infected port.

I used to think with age came wisdom, when I was younger. What I have learned as I've grown older is that often with age comes rigidity and a lack of flexibility physically and mentally. I'm working to avoid becoming that way myself.

Argument to authority of sorts, is not anything of substance.

so wrong here. i knew much more in my late teens and early twenties than i do now in my late 50's. lol

 

[familydag5]

As a pet owner I too am very grateful for the knowledge and wisdom shared by those so devoted to the GSD, thank you.

 

[misslesleedavis1]

I didn't say you called my dog fat. You were not that impolite. Which I appreciate by the way. The lack of manners around here is appalling.

You are however in denial about the fact the pet market is driving things. As much as you and others hate it we spend billions on our dogs a year and those looking for our $$ will continue to cater to whims. Unless you and others like you decide to get flexible the Byb and Puppy Mills will win and the German Shepherd and other breeds are going to be the causalities.

Flexible about what? If they get too flexible won't they just be another byb, puppy mill operation? Pumping out dumpy frumpy puppies that can't work?

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

This is true, it is how the free market works. Which is why what Max stated earlier, back yard, to food dish, to couch is accurate for many non-sporting dog owners.

There are also breeds that cover those bases, looks like a GSD, acts like a Golden, has the size of St. Bernard. Shilohs and Kings.

I love to watch the Shark Tank. One thing those guys shy away from are good ideas which require 'too much consumer education'. GSDs fall into the category. Most complicated breed in the world as I say.

Having said that, there is a passionate, and based on my observations, growing group of people who are becoming more educated about GSDs. This forum is evidence of that. I go to the Dobermann forum, the Golden forum and the traffic and membership is much less. GSDs maybe #2 or #3 on the AKC list but they #1 as far as passionate followers (aka GSD nerds. ). The FB German Shepherd Community is huge! That's a generator of a lot of misinformation too....but lately it's been about 'get a WL' because they never have health problems, but it's a shift.

A good many like me, Dani, Max too, GypsyGhost, Leslee evolve our views because of what we learn about this wonderful breed of dog.

Letting go of old perceptions isn't a sign of weakness or disloyalty to your current dog(s). It's just a process of life we all go through. You can evolve and still love the dogs currently napping by the hearth too.

AAAAAaaaauuuummmmmm. eace:

<snipped>
You are however in denial about the fact the pet market is driving things. As much as you and others hate it we spend billions on our dogs a year and those looking for our $$ will continue to cater to whims. Unless you and others like you decide to get flexible the Byb and Puppy Mills will win and the German Shepherd and other breeds are going to be the causalities.

 

[misslesleedavis1]

I guess as many have stated, it really doesn't matter. Someone who wants a big old fashioned gsd will always beable to hit the Internet and find one. For those who want a dog that can work and comes from titled and rated lineage, there will always be breeders for them. Their are different lines anyone could choose from, different coats. It a large selection in the long run.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Buddha Hound says, live in the moment, go play with your dogs!

 

[shepherdmom]

I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.

Its pure numbers. There are more pet people than sport and club and show combined. Most do not participate on this board and most don't care what the standards are and they don't want to be educated. They will buy what they want and will continue to stay away from places like this board where they constantly are insulted about their shepherds. This board could channel those people into better health testing and breeders and also into being better pet owners if they spent less time on insults and derogatory comments and more time on listening and helping. They could do the same in real life. But I'm sure they will continue to drive people away and turn them off instead by insisting they know all, that they are better educated, and that they know what the original old dead guy wanted exactly.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Personally, I steer people who ask me, away from GSDs for the most part. It's not an easy breed to research, purchase, own and train for most people.

I just saw an ad on our local pet rescue/adopt FB page of people who were rehoming a cat. Reason, 'we don't have the time to give it the care and attention it needs'.

A cat, one cat, was too much work!

 

[Lilie]

But I'm sure they will continue to drive people away and turn them off instead by insisting they know all, that they are better educated, and that they know what the original old dead guy wanted exactly.

Honestly, the folks who are members of this board and who actually have the experience and knowledge to post, stay away from threads such as this. Others just like to fluff their feathers and post away. :shrug:

 

[Jack's Dad]

Honestly, the folks who are members of this board and who actually have the experience and knowledge to post, stay away from threads such as this. Others just like to fluff their feathers and post away. :shrug:

Amen to this. They got mad as h--- and couldn't take it anymore.

 

[Anubis_Star]

Its pure numbers. There are more pet people than sport and club and show combined. Most do not participate on this board and most don't care what the standards are and they don't want to be educated. They will buy what they want and will continue to stay away from places like this board where they constantly are insulted about their shepherds. This board could channel those people into better health testing and breeders and also into being better pet owners if they spent less time on insults and derogatory comments and more time on listening and helping. They could do the same in real life. But I'm sure they will continue to drive people away and turn them off instead by insisting they know all, that they are better educated, and that they know what the original old dead guy wanted exactly.

Stop falling back onto that thought process of "boo hoo, you hurt my feelings" just because one opinion was made about how people who buy from BYBs were hurting the breed, and because a couple facts you don't agree with were stated.

What you're expecting is for an entire breed to be changed to suit your desires, and THAT request astounds me. That's more insulting, IMO, to the entire breed as a whole and the community that loves and fights for that breed than anyone ever saying your dog is overweight, which was NEVER meant to be an insulting comment. You're so hung up on sports vs pets and there being this big divide. But there shouldn't be. Berlin is my pet and companion, first and foremost. The majority of his litter went to pet homes. We do schutzhund because it's fun. Not because we're serious national level competitors.

If you want to talk about what the old dead guy wanted, he never wanted high drive kenneled sport dogs. He wanted solid, stable, family dogs that would do good at any work they did while living in the home with their owner. He didn't want dogs kenneled. He didn't want dogs sold from home to home to home. Really he wanted a B average dog. A dog that could do anything well. Dogs like that don't excel, because when you excel in one thing there becomes divides, like there are now. Super drivey sport dogs don't usually make good pet dogs, or guide dogs, etc.

Why do you even want a GSD if you don't like what a GSD is suppose to be? It's like you going to a Ford dealership, and telling them you wanted a mustang but you wanted it to look like a Toyota Prius because you liked that shape better. And why on earth should a Ford dealership start pumping out Prius clones simply because you want a Prius with a Ford emblem stamped on to it? Which I would never understand because OBVIOUSLY Toyotas are much better

 

[GatorDog]

Slap the hood emblem on a Civic and call it a Ferrari.

 

[Stonevintage]

So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?

A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".

Then you take that dog and put him into the environment where 90% or better end up - in a home as a pet. Yea, that will work out just fine.

So those that want the standard are saying that the vast majority of people who own and enjoy the GSD breed shouldn't have them? Are you saying that they should take a high drive dog and keep him in a crate or house most of the day because there is a concern for escape, theft or poisoning while they are away from the house?

Standing on principal is one thing, practicality and reality should also be considered.