[Anubis_Star]

Peter's butt is higher than his withers. I thought that was a no-no?

Foundation stock are never ideal which is why there is so much heavy inbreeding. They are simply starter building blocks. Peter is only second generation of a completely new breed. It's not until you get into the 1920s and the last few siegers picked by Max in the 1930s before his death that you really see a solid, consistent form and shape come together.

 

[Stonevintage]

I don't know of the photo you mention or the 2 white dogs.

It is well known Horand (named Hektor at the time and renamed after purchase) was seen by Max at a dog show and purchased, the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde was founded by Max, and Horand was registered as the first german shepherd

His subsequent progeny that were most prized as breeding stock and original founders of the breed

Friedrich Sparwasser - whites and sables 1870's Horand was purchased from Sparwasser - if you search back on the Sparwasser name you will find the photos and see what I'm referring to. As far as I can see Max had the money and the means to finish Sparwasser's dream.

 

[Jack's Dad]

Well I agree at least quite a bit with Dani.

Some of those that are so against OS GSDs forget that the problems arise from their own sacred cow as well. People breed specifically for k9, sport, show, color, pet, etc...

What's the difference? . Gsd should be a versatile dog but I guess not many people want that anymore. They now need to be specialized for eveyone's likes and dislikes

It's really unfortunate.

 

[Anubis_Star]

Friedrich Sparwasser - whites and sables 1870's Horand was purchased from Sparwasser - if you search back on the Sparwasser name you will find the photos and see what I'm referring to. As far as I can see Max had the money and the means to finish Sparwasser's dream.

Yes, Horands grandsire was white, but there were no white dogs in the founding stock of the breed.

 

[Whiteshepherds]

Yes, Horands grandsire was white, but there were no white dogs in the founding stock of the breed.

Max's vision was to standardize the German shepherding dogs and he began that journey years before he started the SV and registered Horand.

He used in many cases, non-standarized herding and shepherd dogs both before and after the SV was founded to bring in qualities he wanted for his breed. The dogs like the one shown below along with the smooth coated long stocks were both used. Eventually those dogs became known as "Altdeutsche Hütehunde" ("Old German Herding Dogs") and were no longer used in the GSD breed. If I'm not mistaken these shaggy dogs were often larger than the other dogs used in the breed.

First picture is from the first edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures. Other two pictures just for the heck of it.

 

[Anubis_Star]

Max's vision was to standardize the German shepherding dogs and he began that journey years before he started the SV and registered Horand.

He used in many cases, non-standarized herding and shepherd dogs both before and after the SV was founded to bring in qualities he wanted for his breed. The dogs like the one shown below along with the smooth coated long stocks were both used. Eventually those dogs became known as "Altdeutsche Hütehunde" ("Old German Herding Dogs") and were no longer used in the GSD breed. If I'm not mistaken these shaggy dogs were often larger than the other dogs used in the breed.

First picture is from the first edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures. Other two pictures just for the heck of it.

Yes, Max was a member of the Phylax Society in the early 1890s, which sought to standardize native breeds to germany, such as the numerous sheep herding types. And Max realistically cared very little for color, especially in the beginning. Form follows function. Working dogs. I'm sorry I may of misspoke, when I said founding stock I was implying dogs registered and descended from Horand that were very notable in the first few generations. Hektor, pilot, beowulf, peter, etc

As far as size, I'm not sure if they were larger. As I mentioned, Horand was considered large for the time and he was 24". I know in 1927 Max picked a 27" dog for sieger which was very out of the norm for him. He did not prefer overly large dogs because they hindered on overall working capabilities, but did obviously choose them from time to time if he felt other values added to the breed as a whole

 

[Whiteshepherds]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad Max kept changing type after Pilot...that face is disturbing.

 

[Stonevintage]

Phylax society existed prior to Max coming into the picture. Ultimately, most of the members of his newly founded organization were former members of the Phylax society.

Perhaps there is a case of semantics here. We are talking about a day month and year that an organization was formed and committee members appointed as opposed to what was obviously a breeding program that was well on its way to resembling the GSD as we know him today.

IMHO, Max simply had the means to establish control, refinement and management of the new breed which so much hard work was already put into. His idea was not new, it was not an "out of the blue" inspiration that was gifted only to him. This was a process and as you can see, the effort was around for many years before he got involved. Whites are definitely there. I guess it depends on if you want to start the history of the breed when the paperwork was filed or look past that.

 

[Stonevintage]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad Max kept changing type after Pilot...that face is disturbing.

Hey, they couldn't photoshop back then

 

[martemchik]

Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.

Many who post here have learned through time via life experience that very little is black and white. I hope one day, to see a post from you that indicates that you learned something from another.

You have much to offer and I am not discounting your sincerity and dedication to the breed. Hopefully, through time, you also will gain a deeper understanding of human beings and why there are arguments in what appears to be to you, an "uneducated" difference of opinion.

First, I'm not 20. Second, no matter my age, I have more experience in this breed than 99% of the people on this forum. I've probably seen more German Shepeherds, of all sorts of lines, in the short time I've been "in" the breed, than most people will see in their lifetime. Not only have I seen them, many times I've also spoken to their handlers and breeders at length about the dogs and about why they do what they do.

The arguments I'm talking about are the one's that are just "this is how I want it and that's how I'll have it." There is no basis for it. It's just what it is. If, as a GSD owner, you believe that the breed is supposed to be 120lbs. You are uneducated. There is no other word for it. Maybe delusional? But really...there is no other way to explain why someone would search out an OS GSD other than PERSONAL PREFERENCE which is not based in any sort of historical fact. I don't care that people do that, but that's the only word for that opinion. If you can't back it up with anything other than your own extremely limited experience with GSD (usually the GSD they grew up with), it's not really a valid fact. So it's just an opinion, and you shouldn't really guide other people's decision making with YOUR opinion. Especially when it comes to something way bigger than you, like the GSD breed.

The point of having a BREED is so that things are as close to BLACK AND WHITE as possible. If it wasn't, you'd just have a bunch of mutts.

I hope that one day you decide to take your dog to actual protection training, or maybe agility, or maybe some other sport...and it performs like you want. Or maybe, you'll take it to one of those venues, and the dog won't do it. You'll understand what I mean then.

The way breeders make "pet dogs" these days is simple...take out all the drive. Dogs without drive are safe, they don't make their own decisions, they don't want to do anything period. My point originally was don't quote Max, or some long lost literature on the origins of the breed if you're going to completely discount the fact that this was always supposed to be a working breed. If you want to use Max to back up your point that "OS GSD" were acceptable, you should also accept the SV, you should accept Schutzhund as a breed test. You can't just accept the parts of what he said that you like, and dismiss the parts that he said that make you do more work to breed dogs.

 

[martemchik]

So I disagree shepherdmom, I don't think all pet people get more entrenched in their "wants" nor do I think discussions like this will push the towards OS. I think it enlightens many, brings out the curious in a few....and then there are some that just don't care.

Exactly this...

There are people that will listen, will learn, will understand that the first website they found on Google about GSD is incorrect. If you went to one OS GSD website, then you found this forum, and get 15 people telling you that OS GSD isn't correct, you'll quickly realize that that first website isn't one to listen to and maybe you continue your search and look into some things posted by members of this forum.

Now...if you just don't care, and came on this forum for acceptance because you thought that people would agree with you and then you can show the thread to your SO to convince them that you should get or do X, then you won't listen anyways, get "ticked," leave, and do what you want anyways. There's no changing those people, there's no reason to try, and like I stated pages ago, I'm not about to compromise my standards just so that person doesn't go to a puppy mill but gets a dog from a glorified BYB instead.

 

[Doc]

You can't discuss the Standard without understanding the early history of the breed - the breeders, the dogs, and even the infighting of the founders of the SV (Stephinitz wasn't the only man involved in creating this breed, although he dominated and eliminated many of the best breeders along the way). The Standard isn't the same as it was when Stephinitz wrote it - so to talk about it as the Holy Grail is humorous in my opinion. People quote the Standard and Stephinitz as if they are one in the same, but they are not. Yes Stephinitz built this breed and wrote a Standard based on his desires. However, his Standard has been re-written many times by folks who imposed their desires about the breed. Add that to the fact that judges - who were breeders long before they became judges; many who were/are kennel blind; the loose application of many aspects of whatever Standard they are using; the abuse of power; greed; and money and there is little doubt why this breed is in a downward fall. To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.
If you want, PM me and I will be happy to have a dialogue about the Standard with you.

 

[onyx'girl]

overweight seems to be the constant with oversize...seeing ribs must be scary to those that like the OS? Why is bigger better?
Why is weight always included in the dogs description of the OS breeders? What happened to achievements being a way to describe them instead of how much they weigh?

 

[GatorDog]

Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.



Many who post here have learned through time via life experience that very little is black and white. I hope one day, to see a post from you that indicates that you learned something from another.



You have much to offer and I am not discounting your sincerity and dedication to the breed. Hopefully, through time, you also will gain a deeper understanding of human beings and why there are arguments in what appears to be to you, an "uneducated" difference of opinion.

Didn't realize you were such good friends and knew so much about him! Fill me in when you get a chance.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

RE: The post to which you were responding. What of substance was incorrect in what Max stated? What Max stated was the absolute truth. I'm 51 and work daily with people who want to have dogs that behave exactly as Max outlined, backyard to food dish to couch.

His age is as irrelevant as the age of my last surgeon, who is younger then me, yet saved me from an infected port.

I used to think with age came wisdom, when I was younger. What I have learned as I've grown older is that often with age comes rigidity and a lack of flexibility physically and mentally. I'm working to avoid becoming that way myself.

Argument to authority of sorts, is not anything of substance.

Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.

Many who post here have learned through time via life experience that very little is black and white. I hope one day, to see a post from you that indicates that you learned something from another.

You have much to offer and I am not discounting your sincerity and dedication to the breed. Hopefully, through time, you also will gain a deeper understanding of human beings and why there are arguments in what appears to be to you, an "uneducated" difference of opinion.

 

[Lilie]

To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.

Sadly, it falls on deaf ears. It isn't the specifics of the war, it's the act of the battle.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

What exactly are your bona fides on this topic? I really don't know.

You can't discuss the Standard without understanding the early history of the breed - the breeders, the dogs, and even the infighting of the founders of the SV (Stephinitz wasn't the only man involved in creating this breed, although he dominated and eliminated many of the best breeders along the way). The Standard isn't the same as it was when Stephinitz wrote it - so to talk about it as the Holy Grail is humorous in my opinion. People quote the Standard and Stephinitz as if they are one in the same, but they are not. Yes Stephinitz built this breed and wrote a Standard based on his desires. However, his Standard has been re-written many times by folks who imposed their desires about the breed. Add that to the fact that judges - who were breeders long before they became judges; many who were/are kennel blind; the loose application of many aspects of whatever Standard they are using; the abuse of power; greed; and money and there is little doubt why this breed is in a downward fall. To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.
If you want, PM me and I will be happy to have a dialogue about the Standard with you.

 

[shepherdmom]

I'm not about to compromise my standards just so that person doesn't go to a puppy mill but gets a dog from a glorified BYB instead.

and that attitude of yours and others is what is going to be the downfall of the GSD not anything those of us who have "fat" shepherds ever do.

 

[martemchik]

and that attitude of yours and others is what is going to be the downfall of the GSD not anything those of us who have "fat" shepherds ever do.

Quite the opposite, that is going to make sure that there are still shepherds being bred which match the breed standard and are capable of what this breed should be capable of.

Btw...I didn't call your dog fat. So if you're going to fling insults, fling them at the people that have "insulted" you. Don't bring me into your petty fights with others and make people that might not go back to read the prior pages think that I was the one that said those things about your dog. I didn't. I have not said a single bad thing about YOUR dog, or anyone else's dog.

Truthfully, the only people that have gotten personal...have been you and stonevintage. That's what ends up happening when you run out of facts to back up your position, name calling and then an attempt at discrediting the person you're having a discussion with by bringing up things that have nothing to do with the current subject.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Sounds like an equitable solution for both sides.

I don't think the genes which specifically produce a white coat were ever missed 'that' much?

In my little ole world it would be o.k. to have some whites in a litter if those genetics brought along other positive aspects.

I think the WGSLs have made a mistake getting hung up on black and reds...btw.

The SV's decision to remove whites from the GSD breed in hindsight, didn't hurt the whites. Because they were removed from the GSD breed, they were allowed to become a new breed in the FCI (Berger Blanc Suisse) and no longer live in the shadows of the GSD or the prejudices that followed them around for so many years.
I'm pretty sure the SV didn't have that in mind when they stopped registering them.