I'd much rather have(and do) a biddable dog than one that just goes thru the motions to comply with the commands.

I think they have more enthusiasm and joy in training, and it shows when trialing.

 

Compliant = "Oh, they did it."

Biddable = "Wow, did you see what they did?!"

I'll take a biddable, drivey dog, with solid nerve, thank you very much.

 

Biddability, to me, doesn't refer to how much the dog loves to work or is willing to work with and for the handler, but WHY the dog does it.

A biddable dog has a natural motivation to work with the handler. They find the handler attractive, want to engage the handler and interact with the handler and please the handler. This factor of pack/social drive is a strong motivator for them.

There are many dogs who want to work with the handler and comply with the handler's wishes because they see the handler as a means for satisfying other drives, such as food and play/prey. The handler holds control of what the dog is really working for, the food or toy, so the dog works for the handler as a means of getting those things. But he's not really working FOR the handler, but rather for the food and/or toy.

IMO there is a big difference, but that difference relates to the basic underlying motivation of the dog, not just whether or not he is trainable or complies with commands. Sure, the biddable dog may also be after food and toys as well, depending on those drives and if they are used in training, but they aren't the only thing, or even primary thing, he's working for.

 

1 > not having strong nerves isn't a good trait.

2 > scared and hiding behind their owners
and not approachable not good.

3 > not nervy, not exhibiting drive but obeys. i would take that.

4 > your dog sounds like he has drive, not nervy
and he obeys. that's good.

my dog is laid back. he's quiet in the house and active outdoors.
when we encounter other dogs he's not out of control. if he's off leash
(which he is off leash 96% of the time) he doesn't
approach people or other dogs unless i say it's ok. i guess my dogs drive would be considered low. when i call on him he's
there with a snap and eager but he's also very
at home on the sofa.

1 > I have seen several young German Shepherds lately that I would consider "compliant." They may not have strong nerve, or a ton of drive, but they are easy to train.

2 > For example, a couple came out to training for the first time with 2 leashed GSDs. Both scared, hiding behind owners, not approachable. BUT.... when put into a "sit" they did it and just sat there.

3 >Another young dog, different day. This dog did not act nervy, just not exhibiting any drive. But the owner says "sit" "stay" etc and the dog does it all. Very little training.

4 >My dog(s)..... not so much. For example Ari, he is pushy and obnoxious. Tell him to "sit" and he will, but we WORK on extending time and distance. This dog is always looking for toys, treats, Fluffy-the-dog-across-the-field. Being still is not his natural state.
Now I would consider him "biddable." He loves to work for me. Tell him good-dog and he gets that goofy panting grin on his face.

 

I will tell you, I have a little twinge of jealousy when I see a dog like the second I mentioned. Nice dog, happy, and EASY!!!

I know that one like Ari will eventually look better, be flashier, etc if trained. But they are a ton more work.

And I wonder how much the average owner, (who has always had dogs -- but the second type) is prepared for a dog who is joyous and exuberant and has a strong will, rather than happy and compliant??

And which really do make the "better" dog, if the purpose is an all-around dog, not just a competition dog?

 

Personally, I do not consider it an either/or situation. You can have both in a dog, and that is not only ideal, but what is truly correct for GSD temperament.

 

Personally, I do not consider it an either/or situation. You can have both in a dog, and that is not only ideal, but what is truly correct for GSD temperament.

I am having a hard time expressing what I mean in words, but will try!

I train with 4 different groups. In those groups, I see "pet dog" people come out and frequently they have a young dog that just obeys. It is as if the thought never occurs to that dog to move once placed in a sit.

I have never seen a working line dog like that.

I consider Ari "biddable." Why?
example.... we work on stock quite a bit. I cannot bribe/reward him with treats or toys doing that. But if I tell him he is doing well, he grins and keeps working. If I give him an "ack" he stops whatever it was immediately. He has a lot of presence with stock and also when confronted with a helper, so I do not consider him a soft dog.

However, It most definitely occurs to him to move when placed in a sit!!

So I wonder,
Is compliant good for a working breed? Is it realistic?
Maybe the working dogs I see not compliant because of the way we train?
What do you see as the differences, and are they positive or negative?

 

I have never seen a working line dog like that.

I have. Quite a few actually. It is a genetic trait but lots of people now don't seem to want to believe it is possible to have a really strong dog that will comply when you simply talk to them vs shouting. Certain bloodlines were/are well known for this trait. Mostly the lines that decend back to herding stock but some of the more famous SchH lines as well.

 

This can be found in working dogs, to, though it does seem less and less common as time goes by.

2 of our dogs are like this. Place them in any static position.. sit, down, stand, doesn't matter... and it really doesn't occur to them to move. They just settle. It's hard to describe, but easy to see. They aren't coiled like a spring, ready to go again, they just relax into it. They don't give off a vibe of barely contained energy, but rather a calm zen like vibe. They don't check out or stop paying attention to what is going on, but they're relaxed and settled. They definitely fit into the "it doesn't occur to them to move" category. No matter what is going on around them, unless released or told to do something else, they just calmly stay put. Like the sky could fall down around them, and they'd still be holding position. Once given the word to go again, the energy explodes and they spring into action, but the overall impression when in a static position is not the one of barely contained, coiled spring energy we so often see. These are not low drive dogs. Quite the contrary. They are higher threshold dogs in many respects, so that makes it easier for them to settle, but beyond that there is something in their personalities (something I very much like and appreciate) that allows such a solid switch from "on" to "off". While training methods have encouraged this, they didn't lead to it. It comes from inside the dog and is largely genetic. These two dogs are full siblings, and I'm happy to see the young daughter I have out of one of them already shows the same tendency to being able to just settle, and has since a very young pup.

Another of our dogs is not like this. Put her in a static position and she exhibits more the barely contained energy, coiled spring situation and she gives off that vibe. Almost as if you could here the current buzzing and humming if you got close enough. She holds position because she knows she's supposed to, but not because she makes that mental shift to just calmly settling. This isn't really something I'd consider related to biddability, as she's no more or less biddable than the others. It's related to something else, but again is part of core personality and again is largely genetic. She's also no more or less drivey than the others, though she is a bit lower threshold in general. She is a half sister to the first, and her sire's side contains bloodlines where this is common. So again, genetics play a major role.

As far as training methods, indeed there are some that almost seem tailor made to create that buzzing, barely contained energy state, and others that do not, and these certainly can make a difference. But like anything in training, they can't put into a dog something that isn't there in the first place, or take away something that is. You can't avoid the role of genetics. Training methods certainly can influence the end result, but only within the parameters allowed by the genetics. With our dogs who do settle, we didn't do anything in training to cause it. It came naturally to them, but we sure did reward it because it's something we like. With the more buzzy dog, training methods have made a huge difference in her ability to settle and she's much better at it than she used to be, but still will probably never reach the level of the dogs where it comes naturally.

 

Thank you to everyone who is giving input!!

Based on my descriptions, would you consider "compliant" to be similar/the same as "genetic obedience?"
And then biddability being a stand alone component?
Or am I making this too difficult for myself?

Would you consider the description of my dog Ari's reaction a correct example of biddable?

Training--- I wonder if the methods I (and others I train with) create problems?
Using sit as an example again, I take a young dog, lure them into sit, say OKAY, release and treat. So inadvertently, I am teaching that motion gets the treat, in my attempt to create fast, happy, competition-style obedience????

 

Using sit as an example again, I take a young dog, lure them into sit, say OKAY, release and treat. So inadvertently, I am teaching that motion gets the treat, in my attempt to create fast, happy, competition-style obedience????

Yes, you are. You should treat while the dog is doing the behavior requested -- which in this case is "sit".

 

I'm not going to try to pinpoint where this falls on the list of lables... I don't know how I'd define it. I just know I like it. And as an aside, when at trials watching dogs I'm finding myself paying a lot more attention to the dogs on the long down than I ever used to. How the dog does his down, if he's a buzzer or a settler, is becoming something I'm looking for more and more with regard to using the trial performance as a way to gain insight into temperament. Was just commenting to a friend about that at the Regionals last weekend actually.

As far as training techniques, I do think that some really are counter productive to achieving this because they condition the dog to never settle, but to always be in a high state of drive and energy, even in a static position. I won't name names, but a popular series of videos by a certain Malinut trainer can easily lead to this if the person isn't very smart and insightful on applying the techniques and instead just follows along with the TV. I've seen first hand the results of that, and how once conditioned that way, especially in the all important foundation training, it can lead to problems later.

I view obedience as coming in two different types, and IMO the dogs who preform the best are the ones who not only perform the exercises correctly but who's frame of mind when doing so is in line with the exercises as well. There is active obedience, where I want the dog expressing drive and energy (heeling, recall, retrieves, send out) and there is passive obedience where I want the dog to settle (sit, down, stand, basic heel position, front).

When teaching these to the dog, right from the get go, I make sure everything I do, including my own energy level and the vibes I'm giving off, are in line with the mental state I want the dog in. If I want my dog settled, I need to be calm and settled myself, not buzzing with energy. If I want my dog energetic, I need to be energetic, not boring and slow and lacking energy.

You mentioned teaching sit for example, and I do it differently. I don't tend to do the rapid fire sit-release-reward. Sure it makes for a dog quick to sit, but it also makes for a dog coiled like a spring anticipating the release. He can't wait to get the release and break the sit, because that's when his reward comes. So in many ways this is conditioning the dog to look forward to breaking position, rather than look forward to being in position.

Instead I'll ask for the sit, and then follow up with calm reward *while* the dog is in the sit, encouraging the dog to hold the sit in a calm manner and making holding the sit calmly a reward in and of itself, not the only reward coming after the release for breaking the sit. So after the sit I'll mark the sit itself, but not with a marker that also cues a release or end of exercise, and then follow up with calm petting, verbal praise, maybe a series of treats. And the whole while I'm calm as well. I may have been dancing around like an idiot before I gave the sit command, but as soon as I said sit I calmed down too, to cue my dog to not just go into a sit, but to switch to the calmer mental state. Same for down or stand or anything else in the passive obedience category.

I do this in my trial handling as well, even with experienced dogs. Take the out of motions for example. During the build up I'm doing my energetic, intense heeling walk because heeling is active obedience where I want the dog energetic and intense, so I reflect the same attitude in myself that I want my dog to show. But as soon as the sit/down/stand command comes, I exhale, relax my posture, and change the overall vibe I'm giving from one of energy to one of calmness. I don't change my pace, or the way I'm moving my arms or anything else, just release the tension and switch to a calmer posture and state of mind. You can bet the dog reads that change loud and clear. Then when the recall comes, as I inhale to give the command, my tension and energy comes back because now I'm asking the dog to switch back to that active, energetic state himself.

I practice these transitions of mental state a lot in training, going from active to passive, and always trying to make sure everything about the way I'm working my dog... my tone of voice, body posture, my own vibes, reward delivery, what reward I'm using... is in line with my end goal and reinforces the mental state I want my dog in for each part rather than contridicts it.

 

I didn't think we were talking about dogs settling. I am talking about dogs who are more naturally "in tune" with the handler. Many of the dogs I started with were like this and I have some now who are as well but not to the same degree as those dogs from years back. The ones I have now go back to the same bloodlines though. One example was my dog Bear. A VERY strong, serious and powerful dog in protection but so connected to me I could simply speak and that dog would hear me, no matter what he was doing. This was a dog that everyone would get up to watch do protection because of his power and fight drive. He was also highly protective which I feel has much to do with that connection he had to me.

I could stop Bear in his tracks, no matter the situation, even if he was headed full speed toward the helper.... and I didn't have to yell to do it. He wanted to do what I asked of him and he would do it because I liked it. Hard to explain to people who have never experienced it. It is indeed unique and not something you easily forget once you know and work a dog like that. It is a shame that the desire for drive is overwhelming these traits in the breed. I hear people say they have experienced this but when I watch their dog, it is not the same. You can actually see it when you watch the dogs interact with the handler. There is just a look of joy the dog has that is clearly directed at the handler, not a toy or in anticipation of a treat.

 

I think we're talking about a bit of both?

Seemed Mary was focusing in large part on dogs that, using her example, once sitting aren't going to move vs dogs who can't wait to move or will move easily, and whether that tendency was due to "compliance" as she termed it, and if that is the same or different from biddability. Honestly I'm a bit confused with the different labels and think different people mean different things by them, but I do think we're talking about settling and biddablity both, and how they might be related. I think...

 

I saw what I think is an excellent example of biddability when visiting a kennel where police dogs are trained. The trainer had a very calm, relaxed, LARGE male dog with her. She wanted to show me how great his heel is, so she had him heel with her. He was intent and VERY focused on her and doing what she asked, and the very moment she released him and said "good boy!" his whole face lit up, he smiled a big doggy smile and gave a little prance of happiness and a big tail wag. It was like he was just SO thrilled that he pleased his handler. I think that is what I'd call biddability.

 

Absolutely! I see that when this team is training~ this is a dog that is very biddable( this video is about 2 yrs old, you should see them now
http://www.youtube.com/RoniTristar#p/a/u/1/r8v6bnHaogI

 

Thanks for all who are contributing to this topic. My dog seems a bit of both of what Chris described. Sometimes he settles into a sit or down and other times he is spring loaded, waiting for the release. He is, at 17 months, very easily distracted and it takes a huge amount of firm corrections to get him to focus on me when we are in distracting environments such as a park with people playing soccer, or with other dogs running around. I am learning when to be calm and quiet with him and when to be excited depending on the situation.

What are the bloodlines that tend to produce this Genetic Obedience? ( the desire to work with and for the handler? I hope to find pup like that for Benny and I to raise next year.

 

What are the bloodlines that tend to produce this Genetic Obedience? ( the desire to work with and for the handler? I hope to find pup like that for Benny and I to raise next year.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think Lierbergs, Vello, and Racker Itztal tend that way. I was also told Gildo vom Korbelbach can produce biddability but then I also have read the opposite, and that there is a lot of "hardness" with that line but I am not sure how it all ties together.

 

To me, a "biddable" dog likes to work with the handler just for the sake of it, and often has as much drive and motivation simply for praise and affirmation from the handler than any reward toy or food. The "compliant" dog is maybe handler sensitive enough to naturally have appropriate control but doesn't always have that same attitude that shines through like the biddable dog. If I had to ascribe the traits to my dogs, I'd say Kenya is extremely biddable and Nikon is more the compliant one. I train Kenya without treats or tugs or balls....just her and I, and if I bring the right attitude on the field, you will see a happy-go-lucky, prancy dog that is working just based on my praise and encouragement. She wants nothing more than to just get out and work with me. That's not to say that Nikon doesn't or that he is flat or easily distracted or needs constant luring, but I have to motivate him (and correct him) differently to get the same results. Honestly, Kenya is more work, because she's so in tune with me that if I'm not 100% then she's not either. The last time we were doing agility I was complaining that she lacks speed and drive. Then before her turn, I had her sitting in basic position and was giving her these excited looks and faking her out like I was going to sprint off. When we ran the course for real, she was the fastest dog out there! It was because she feeds off my attitude, so if I want a fast, drivey dog *I* have to get her in that frame of mind with our interaction, not by putting a treat pouch on or waving a toy. For me it's a blessing and a curse. Nikon is "easier" to train because I can walk outside with a migraine and a sprained ankle and play the right games with the right toys and he's working at his 100%.