[MariandMika]

I live in Norway and people have stopped using prongs and e collars ages ago. Prongs are banned. Still we have good police and military dogs I believe in positive training, but I have never had a hard dog, so I might change my mind when Mika gets older

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

The dog pictured in this article discussing Norwegian border patrol shows some type of 'hardware' around its neck. It may be a prong or a choke chain, which is just as harmful (if not more) and/or cruel if improperly used.

Further the significance of 'hardware' is a clear indicator that some form of physical non-positive training methods are being used by your military.

Testing 18 months compulsory military service | Barentsobserver

 

[MariandMika]

As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

You're missing the point (or deflecting) and it has nothing to do with my dog or your opinion.

You wrote "we still have good police and military dogs" to support your stance.

....and I posted a link to an article showing a Norwegian MILITARY dog with either a prong or choke chain. I'm leaning to it's probably a metal choke chain.

So the point is, you have "good police and military dogs" but according to the evidence I presented they are being trained with choke chains (possibly prongs). That equipment is indicative that YOUR military is using some type of 'correction' based methodology in their training using a metal collar.

This happens often. Prongs may be banned but that does NOT mean your police and military dogs are being trained without equipment that, for practical purposes, utilizes the same methodology you think went extinct upon your country banning prongs.

Further, are you aware if your police or military imports dogs that were already started in countries like Germany? In which case the foundation training was laid with the probability of prongs and other equipment of that nature having been used.

From the article, look at what the leash is attached to:

As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

In other words, there's a lot of layers to this onion that you aren't aware of, especially in military applications.

So just don't get too smug about your 'prong ban'.

One thing is for sure, I'd rather people be open and honest about their training methods. I can't imagine top bite sport competitors from Norway are forgoing the use of ecollars or prongs either, they're just using them behind closed doors.

We here in the U.S. need to be vigilant that this sort of false morality doesn't become 'law' here, that's for sure!

 

[Blitzkrieg1]

As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you

Haha I guarentee 99% of those dogs are trained with prongs, chokes and E collars. Im betting plenty of the dogs come from Belgium and Holland where the methods they use would make your toes curl. Hard dogs, hard training and no excuses or BS.
I would love to see a truly hard/strong dog trained and worked on the street with positive re enforcement only.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

...and let's hope this Ukraine/Russia deal settles down, getting scary, but if it doesn't it'll be the US 'over there', with guys like David Winners and dogs trained with prongs and such to help, defend and protect.

 

[björn]

Prongs and e-collars are forbidden in sweden too, and as far as I know plenty of people train without these tools. Chokechains are allowed and of course these may not be nicer to use compared to light pop on a prong. But it´s not like you have to choose between all positive or never some form of correction just because you can´t use these tools, I doubt however a skilled trainer can´t train a dog without the "power" of prong or e-collar and this has much to do how "tough" a dog is. Why else do people get problems with tough dogs even if they are free to use prongs or e-collars? If banning tools is correct can be discussed, I´m not so intressted in that discussion, in the end all tools can be missused and you can´t ban stupidity.

 

[glowingtoadfly]

You're missing the point (or deflecting) and it has nothing to do with my dog or your opinion.

You wrote "we still have good police and military dogs" to support your stance.

....and I posted a link to an article showing a Norwegian MILITARY dog with either a prong or choke chain. I'm leaning to it's probably a metal choke chain.

So the point is, you have "good police and military dogs" but according to the evidence I presented they are being trained with choke chains (possibly prongs). That equipment is indicative that YOUR military is using some type of 'correction' based methodology in their training using a metal collar.

This happens often. Prongs may be banned but that does NOT mean your police and military dogs are being trained without equipment that, for practical purposes, utilizes the same methodology you think went extinct upon your country banning prongs.

Further, are you aware if your police or military imports dogs that were already started in countries like Germany? In which case the foundation training was laid with the probability of prongs and other equipment of that nature having been used.

From the article, look at what the leash is attached to:

I don't believe Maria and Mika was deflecting here, simply stating his/her experience with an open mind to other viewpoints. The slight venom I detect is unwarranted.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

*sigh*. Really?

You're missing the point too, definately not deflecting.


So I'll explain, I do NOT care how she, or you, train your personal dogs. I didn't address that at all.

I pointed out an inaccurate perception she held regarding the use of training equipment on Military dogs specifically.

She responded as many people do when something they hold to be correct turns out not to be, by making it out to be about her personally. IMO it's very rude when people do that, therefore I will be blunt in return but it will about the topic not the person.

In other words "you can't handle the truth" applies and does not denote 'venom' on my part.

I don't like to get personal, for instance I would have never addressed Carmen as you did, nor would I address you that way, unless YOU want to go there first.

The problem is people want to be Molly coddled and their 'opinion' treated like a fragile precious entity, it's not, it's an opinion and sometimes people's opinions are wrong.

Further if you think that's 'venom' then you aren't going to last very long on this site because you've not seen anything yet.

I don't believe Maria and Mika was deflecting here, simply stating his/her experience with an open mind to other viewpoints. The slight venom I detect is unwarranted.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Yes and some of the conventional wisdom is that choke chains, misused, can cause more physical damage then a prong.

What you say (in blue) is true - but it also follows then that banning the tools isn't the answer, so why do it?

What it does do, as seen by our Norwegian friend, is lend a sense of false security because the general public perceives the tool as the problem, not the misuse. That is why I called it 'false morality law' because as you rightly point out it's not the tool, it's the human using it.

Prongs and e-collars are forbidden in sweden too, and as far as I know plenty of people train without these tools. Chokechains are allowed and of course these may not be nicer to use compared to light pop on a prong. But it´s not like you have to choose between all positive or never some form of correction just because you can´t use these tools, I doubt however a skilled trainer can´t train a dog without the "power" of prong or e-collar and this has much to do how "tough" a dog is. Why else do people get problems with tough dogs even if they are free to use prongs or e-collars? If banning tools is correct can be discussed, I´m not so intressted in that discussion, in the end all tools can be missused and you can´t ban stupidity.

 

[glowingtoadfly]

*sigh*. Really?

You're missing the point too, definately not deflecting.


So I'll explain, I do NOT care how she, or you, train your personal dogs. I didn't address that at all.

I pointed out an inaccurate perception she held regarding the use of training equipment on Military dogs specifically.

She responded as many people do when something they hold to be correct turns out not to be, by making it out to be about her personally. IMO it's very rude when people do that, therefore I will be blunt in return but it will about the topic not the person.

In other words "you can't handle the truth" applies and does not denote 'venom' on my part.

I don't like to get personal, for instance I would have never addressed Carmen as you did, nor would I address you that way, unless YOU want to go there first.

The problem is people want to be Molly coddled and their 'opinion' treated like a fragile precious entity, it's not, it's an opinion and sometimes people's opinions are wrong.

Further if you think that's 'venom' then you aren't going to last very long on this site because you've not seen anything yet.

I meant that the all caps were unwarranted. That, to me, denotes venom. I did not see any personalization of the issue by Maria and Mika, could you point out what you see please? Also, no need to bring up a past issue as it clouds the current discussion, and Merciel expressed my reasons for being upset at Carmen quite beautifully in another thread today, and this one is too interesting to be shut down for OT.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

It's not caps, it's bolded and really, if you think that's being too harsh then you just wait and I don't care what you think about that, it's silly.

Doesn't matter what someone else said. I've been in disagreement with Carmen, Sue, dani fani, blanket back and can do so without making it personal. So my advice would be to not worry about the 'tone' of others.

O.K. One more time - I didn't say anything about M&M's dogs or her preferred training method. She did in her response, in lieu of addressing the article and pic I posted in response specifically to military dogs.

Now why do you think she totally avoided mentioning the article or pic which was the only aspect I addressed?

I know why...do you?

I meant that the all caps were unwarranted. That, to me, denotes venom. I did not see any personalization of the issue by Maria and Mika, could you point out what you see please? Also, no need to bring up a past issue as it clouds the current discussion, and Merciel expressed my reasons for being upset at Carmen quite beautifully in another thread today, and this one is too interesting to be shut down for OT.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.

Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.

So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.

 

[glowingtoadfly]

... The working dog in the photo was wearing a correction collar. It could have been a stock photo.

 

[glowingtoadfly]

I believe that choke collars are more potentially abusive than prongs.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

It's a choke chain from what I can see in the photo. It's metal and definately some type of correction collar.

As to the photo it's tagged to a current article and it agrees with what M&M stated, prongs and e collars are banned...not choke chains therefore it's an accurate representation.

Below, that's my understanding as well, but I'm sure there's been abuse with prongs too. Humans can be very cruel critters....

I believe that choke collars are more potentially abusive than prongs.

 

[glowingtoadfly]

Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.

Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.

So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.

So you are saying that people who are too rough with their dogs will always be that way, and banning correction tools will not stop the abuse? On the other hand, there has recently been a cultural shift towards positive dog training and I think these laws on correction tools effect that. There was recently an article I read online about a correction trainer who stopped walking dogs at a humane society because leash corrections are no longer allowed. I will try to find the article. Anyway, disallowing the use of prongs and choke collars as well as ecollars will prevent abusive owners from hurting
dogs. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.

Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.

So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.

So you are saying that people who are too rough with their dogs will always be that way, and banning correction tools will not stop the abuse? On the other hand, there has recently been a cultural shift towards positive dog training and I think these laws on correction tools eflect that. There was recently an article I read online about a correction trainer who stopped walking dogs at a humane society because leash corrections are no longer allowed. I will try to find the article. Anyway, disallowing the use of prongs and choke collars as well as ecollars will prevent abusive owners from hurting
dogs. Isn't that a good thing?

Yes. That is what I (and others) are saying but it's only one part of the premise.

I disagree that the shift is going totally in one direction culturally. In fact there's increasing push back from 'balanced trainers'. In some cases PO trainers have been caught being so extreme as to put dogs down because their methods weren't working.

I posted one blog article about this earlier in this thread about the push back.

I doubt you'll see a ban on prongs in this country and I for one will fight against it because prongs used correctly can and have saved dogs too! That's a good thing!

 

[björn]

Yes and some of the conventional wisdom is that choke chains, misused, can cause more physical damage then a prong.

What you say (in blue) is true - but it also follows then that banning the tools isn't the answer, so why do it?

What it does do, as seen by our Norwegian friend, is lend a sense of false security because the general public perceives the tool as the problem, not the misuse. That is why I called it 'false morality law' because as you rightly point out it's not the tool, it's the human using it.


[/COLOR]

Why is it strange that you can see a legal chokechain on militarydogs in norway as an example, have anyone claimed just because prongs or e-collars are forbiddeen no one uses any type of corrections or legal collars? You can probably find many using only leathercollars too. And yes a chokechain can be missused, but so can prongs and e-collars, the key here is missuse I guess, it´s not like just because a person use a prong the dog "suffers" less than with a choke, or the other way around. But yes, a person who deliver hard corrections on a choke time after time is probably going to hurt the dog more than a skilled person using a prong with care, but then it´s more about the person.

The question why those tools is banned is probably different views/cultures on dogtraining, laws and a attempt to set the limit somewhere based on previous missuse, one part may also be of course some thinks for example a prongs looks "evil" and e-collars have a bad reputation. The development of trainingmethods has also played a part compared to older times where training was more about corrections and force the dog to do things. However I sense there is a more balanced views on the raise again, away from "extremists" on both sides, but I don´t know if this has so much to do with e-collars or prongs, the general view will probably be that if you must have these tools and "legal" alternatives isn´t enough then something has gone wrong in the training.